802.11g Adapters Added to Compatible Adapters List

Discussion in 'TiVo Home Media Features & TiVoToGo' started by TiVoBill, Feb 17, 2005.

  1. YankeeRudi

    YankeeRudi New Member

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    Mar 7, 2005

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    Reading through some of the questions and comments on this thread, I have just a few comments of my own:

    - I have used TTG for about 2 months and am transferring an average of 3 hours per night. Time is not an issue to me - I transfer at night.
    - I have 2 Tivo units on a wireless network using D-Link DWL-122 and have had no problems.
    - I tried the DWL-G122 and although I had no problem transferring, I did have problems on my Tivo (see thread http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?t=224398 for details)

    For anyone looking for the either DWL-120 or DWL-122 (both 11b types) got to TigerDirect.com.

    Rudi
     
  2. YankeeRudi

    YankeeRudi New Member

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    Mar 7, 2005
    After posting my comments, I just visited TigerDirect and found out that the D-Link adaptors that I suggested are no longer available. Sorry guys.

    They were still available recently. Your next best choice is ebay. The DWL-122 is available for $20 on buy it now.

    Good luck
     
  3. mikebee

    mikebee New Member

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    Apr 19, 2005
    hi there,
    i'm hoping someone can give me a straightforward answer to my question.

    i recently dropped my phone service (VOIP here i come!), and was planning on finally hooking up my Tivo to my home wireless network. i bought a Netgear WG111 wireless adapter prior to cancelling my phone service, but i neglected to notice that i would need to have my Tivo software upgraded to v7.1 before I would be able to use the wireless adaptor. Now my phone service is cut off (a day premature, actually) and I have no way to update my Tivo from my apartment.
    my question is this: If i sign up for the update, can i merely wait three days (maybe a couple more for good measure), then take my Tivo to a friend's house, hook it up to their telephone line, and then download the update? i'm not entirely sure how the updates work - does my box have its own ID so that the server knows its mine?

    any help is appreciated!
     
  4. Justin Thyme

    Justin Thyme Contra sceleris

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    Mar 29, 2005
    MikeBee- you might not have to wait long. You can force a connection from any phone line. Go to Messages and System. settings. Phone and network settings. Connect to Tivo service Now.

    Unless their server is still choked with requests for 7.1, you should get it soon enough. I don't know if there currently is a wait. Maybe you will just have to let your friend use your tivo for a week.... Hope you are good friends in that case or you may never see it again.

    I think it is correct there is a problem with not getting timely wireless G support and other connectivity because of the choice of Linux as a system platform.

    As a user I could care less whose OS is under the hood be it Apples or Microsofts, or Sony's. All these folks know how to make reliable and stable OS's, and know how to provide them cheaply. If what you are saying is true, then people would be able to hack and improve the XBOX, IPod, or Playstations.

    Contrary to your assertions, these proprietary OS's
    • Do not make a device expensive- Can be sold in less than $200 units
    • can be and are heavily hacked to add more things that are available for Tivo
    • are reliable
    • are stable- eg MS smartphones from Samsung, Motorolla, Nokia, or Orange

    Both Apple and MS have great OS's that can interface to a large number of devices. Neither of them had OS's that could be used for a DVR when Tivo was first produced. MS now does, and Apple I am sure will soon, though they will refuse to sell it to anyone unless they buy the hardware that is bundled with it.

    I think with time, Linux will have a more substantial base of third party hardware support. I can see advocating it for that reason though it would not be too convincing an argument for most users who could care less about OS wars.
     
  5. mikebee

    mikebee New Member

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    Apr 19, 2005

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    >>Unless their server is still choked with requests for 7.1, you should get it soon enough.

    So the update will simply be waiting for me to force a connection? meaning the box doesnt have to be connected to a phone line and waiting for it, that I can just wait a couple days, then go and force the connection..
     
  6. CrispyCritter

    CrispyCritter Purple Ribbon Wearer

    3,653
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    Feb 28, 2001
    North...
    Correct. They flip a switch (metaphorically) on your account and the next time you dial in you will get the upgrade. It may take them a couple of days to flip the switch, so your scheme sounds reasonable.

    Note that this assumes you do NOT have a TiVo DVD recorder, for which 7.1 doesn't exist yet.
     
  7. maschiff

    maschiff New Member

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    Jan 11, 2003
    AZ
    I'm looking at the TiVo store and can't find the DWL-G120. I can only find the DWL-122 and the Netgear WG111.
     
  8. mikebee

    mikebee New Member

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    Apr 19, 2005
    thanks for the help, everyone!
     
  9. rog

    rog urban achiever

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    Jan 12, 2005
    Oregon
    Justin Thyme: I'm not sure I understand your point (perhaps you were not trying to make one though).

    Do you want TiVo to use Microsoft MCE technology? Some nonexistent Apple technology (they will probably never license their software for use on non-apple hardware -- they haven't done so once throughout their entire existence, AFAIK)?

    Linux is a clear winner for embedded devices and other hardware like the TiVo. On top of the stability and reliability, there are no licensing costs. Plus, you can take the open-source Linux code (for the kernel, for any drivers, for the filesystem, for the surrounding software) and really eliminate anything not needed for that specific device. You cannot alter and customize a MS-based platform like that.

    I disagree that a MS-based OS is as stable as a Linux-based OS. Don't get me wrong, I use OS's from all three companies. But my Linux and UNIX based systems always have much longer uptime.
     
  10. Justin Thyme

    Justin Thyme Contra sceleris

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    Mar 29, 2005
    My point was very simple and I will repeat it. All the advantages you list are illusory, and the disadvantages of relying on linux are all too obvious to Tivo customers day in and day out.

    For example, there are thousands of USB devices but none of them work with Linux. I want to do stuff like plug a removable Hard drive into the usb and have it recognize it so I can bypass TTG. I want to download video to my handheld. Will I ever get that support? Look how long it took for crucial cababilities like USB 2.0 and wireless G have taken.

    What customer ever asked a salesman what the manufacturer paid in licensing costs? We could care less. Customers care about the cost of the box, not which vendor of which part got how much of the profit.

    Who cares about unprovable assertions of stability. Using what configurations, using what third party software with drivers of what quality, etc etc? Scientific Atlanta boxes use Linux and guess what- they are notorious for requiring resets. You assert one particular vendor has a more unstable OS in theory. Well, multiple phone vendors are relying on it and other proprietary non linux OS and are selling millions of them without any complaints of instability or high cost.

    Who cares about Open Source. Yeah, it sure is nice that some unpaid programmer got interested enought to fix the OS so we can now put hard drives in our tivos that are larger than 137GB. But geez- even OS9 had support for 2 terabyte volumes and NT has had the same since its begininnig.

    If Tivo switches to another OS, we get more connectivity, we get more third party vendors building hardware and software that works with Tivo, not because they are creating it for Tivo's puny 3 million unit base, but for a customer bases 10 fold or a hundred fold larger.

    What is not obvious is what the source of this lack of connectivity. You correctly pointed to Linux, but stated that the benefits outweigh these costs. I disagree.

    I could care less what OS is running under the hood so long as I can buy stuff that works was well on Tivo as it does with other platforms the product was designed for. If Apple buys Tivo and rips out Linux, fine. Good riddance if I can connect the Tivo to more stuff. If Tivo goes to MCE in version 3 or 4 then fine- I'm not going to hang garlic on it to keep it from spitting split pea soup at me.
     
  11. rog

    rog urban achiever

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    Jan 12, 2005
    Oregon
    I don't think your point is simple at all. In fact, you've made many different points -- so many that I barely know where to start. ;)

    The heart of your argument seems to be two part:

    1) As a platform for the TiVo, Linux is more of a disadvantage for the customer than an advantage. In other words, Linux has become a liability.

    -and-

    2) TiVo should switch to a Windows MCE platform. Or to an Apple platform.

    As to #1, that is an interesting point, but I strongly disagree. I think this is the first time I've ever heard anyone argue that Linux is no good for TiVo.

    As to #2: I have used MCE, and I am not all that impressed. The TiVo GUI is a hands down winner by comparison. I'd much rather be forced to use a 802.11b adapter than give up the TiVo GUI in favor of MCE!

    And I don't understand why we are even still talking about some nonexistent software from Apple. I'm all for speculation, but if we're talking about TiVo changing platforms, the platform better exist!

    Illusory? The advantages of using Linux for the TiVo, as I listed in my original post:

    - cheaper TiVo boxes
    - an open platform (which is why we can hack our TiVo's to add more space, among other things!)
    - reliability and stability

    I'll talk about cost and open-source in a minute. Concerning reliability and stability, you later go on to say, "neither [Microsoft or Apple] had OS's that could be used for a DVR when Tivo was first produced". I couldn't agree more. So you think it's wise to just switch gears now? That doesn't make sense.

    I don't think you have really thought about the process that would have to occur to port the TiVo interface from Linux into Windows MCE (or to some nonexistent Apple DVR software). That would be a huge development effort. And what about after it is ported? Would you suggest TiVo support both platforms at once? What about the 3 million existing customers with Linux based boxes? And, really, think about it... it just wouldn't be the same ol' TiVo if it were based on MCE. Have you actually used MCE? It's just not as polished.

    Wireless G only seems crucial to you. You are obviously a tech-savvy customer. That's fine, many of us here are. I have thought how nice it would be to be able to connect my 200 GB USB drive too.

    But this is not seeing the bigger picture. This is a TiVo. The things you are asking for come in a PC.

    Not only would adding all these features inherently add cost (hardware, software development, added support overhead), but they would also add complexity to the TiVo. By nature, that would take away some of the simplicity and elegance that is TiVo.

    Of course, you're right. But you're missing the bigger picture.

    The cost of a Microsoft license (for MCE, or any other MS software) has to be absorbed somehow. In a simple scenario, that could mean a more expensive TiVo for the customer. Or it could mean that TiVo pulls less profit from the sale of that box (profits!? what profits!?). In other words, that money comes from somewhere, and it can't possibly be helpful for the customer or investor, unless it provides some value that can provide enough benefit to offset the cost of the license.

    You're right, nothing is always rock-solid. And most of my points about Linux's stability are not quantified. Having worked with Linux/UNIX, Mac OS, and Windows 9X/NT/2K/XP machines every day for the past 8 years, and having monkey'd around on these systems for longer than that, I can just know some of these things without having to perform empirical studies on the subject... MS software is buggy.

    Sigh. Here you go asking for TiVo to be a PC again. Why not just build your own media center PC? Try MythTV, and let us know how long it takes you to get everything setup.

    Look, it's not that you can't have these features. It's a matter of cost and usability.

    Lack of connectivity? You can connect, wired or wirelessly, to your TiVo. Yes, true 802.11g transfer speeds for TTG would be nice. But 802.11b is cheap, and it works fine. Or go the wired route for even faster transfers.

    In any case, I've already explained the problem with 802.11g drivers. Hopefully they are working on optimizing them. If this is the only problem that comes from using Linux, I'm ok with it. I just don't see the justification for moving to a MS platform. That's a bit extreme.
     
  12. Justin Thyme

    Justin Thyme Contra sceleris

    3,306
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    Mar 29, 2005
    You know very well that the Tivo UI can exist exactly as it does now running on top of any different operating system- whether it is an NT core or an OSX core. Last I checked Tivo doesn't present the user with a bash prompt. Nor does a Tivo box running on top of OSX or an NT code base have to let the user ever see an Apple or WindoZe desktop.

    You know very well that consumer devices based on non linux proprietary code bases are both inexpensive and stable enough for phones. There are also many cases of consumer linux boxes that are unstable. You attribute fragility to anything not linux. Another Myth.

    If your problem is that you are of the school of MS=brained-damaged-lamer-coders/thieves, then if MS code is so buggy, why aren't we hearing of millions of Samsung, Nokia and Orange phones needing to be rebooted continually? Myth. OS engineers at Apple, Microsoft, and the armies of Linux engineers at AT&T, IBM, HP, Intel and so many other blue chip companies are all very competent. OS9 and Windows95-98 may have been crap, but OSX and NT-XP definitely are solid pieces of work more than up to 24/7 applications. The way you configure an OS is crucial- if you wish to blame an OS because of its popularity- then that is something else. In Apple and MS's cases, I will grant you that there are so many more ways to screw them up with memory leaking or faulting device drivers or untested code written by weekend warriors- but that is a weakness of the person who configured the machine, not the OS. And the people in this case configuring the machine would be Tivo engineers, not end users. I would expect Tivo to provide official support of particular devices and apps only after they were thoroughly tested. Tivo's burden shifts from developing drivers on their own to picking from thousands, and choosing the best based on testing.

    And if you think that all linux programmers are altruistic, take a look at the motivations of those at OpenTV, AT&T, IBM, Intel and HP who are spending millions on linux development. I don't really care that they are as cutthroat as MS and Apple- actually I am a big fan of entrepreneurial drive versus socialist theologies that many linux zealots seem to advocate. In the end I don't really care about their beliefs or motives or the hidden agendas of the megabillion dollar corporations funding linux. I'll buy their products if they were delver capability I want to buy. But for whatever reason they are not delivering. So who needs them.

    The folks who have been rewarded with huge amounts of money from innovating their OS's are highly motivated to keep innovating their OS's. Linux developers are not, and it is not surprizing that there is a corresponding of lack of vitality in simply keeping up with providing drivers for devices that are taken for granted in the Mac and Windoze worlds. Acts as simple as changing the resolution of the display screen is incredibly painful on linux. Compare that to the three click simplicity on Mac or Windows platforms. The definition of a power user on linux is someone comfortable with typing long bash prompt commands where dropping a back slash operand can mean disaster. That is stuff that linux developers are comfortable with, but their interests and comfort zones are not representative of those of consumers.

    Is a Apple platform for a standalone DVR non existent? Really- Take a look at a Mac Mini. Is OSX nonexistent or somehow incompatible with small? How hard would it be to slap the Tivo UI on it? Give me a break. You aren't even thinking. Now, I personally believe there are good reasons that Apple will not buy Tivo and do such a thing, but it is certainly not for want of a good OS to base it on. Sure I could I be wrong they they actually buy Tivo in order to buy market share and their only real competition in that space. Should they do so, I would enthusiastically support their decision to rip out the linux code and replace it with OSX.

    Your changing horses midstream pitch does not wash. Gee, I notice Series 1 tivos don't get TTG. And anyway, what are the real backwards compatibility issues. Oh. They have to play MPEG2 scrambled files, have a IP interface to serve up shows... what else. As for porting- various flavors of NT run on Mips platforms in general and Broadcom chips in specific. Apple has not been motivated to port to those chips, but it would make no sense for them to maintain two separate OS bases simply because of their desire to avoid the tedium of stomping endian bugs.

    You know that the Xbox based on proprietary and secret NT code is hacked as much as Tivos are. Ipods and playstations are also heavily hacked. Yet the vitality of this hacking activity should not be possible according to you because none are open source. Another myth.

    Your arguments offer speculation and wistful and idealistic thinking in response to facts.

    On this particular subject of Wireless G, you are simply ill informed concerning advantages of wired speeds over wireless g. It doesn't matter if you lay glass fiber because transfer sluggihsness not an io bound but hardware bound problem as tivobill stated. You aren't going to get much beyond 6.5 mbps (see HDTivo comments). More typical speeds for untuned networks is real time. Wireless G is not crucial to me, my home is fully dual cat5e wired. Wireless is crucial to Tivo because it makes it easier to roll out strategic internet connectivity features. Most folks don't want to run network cable. But look how long it took Tivo to deliver Wireless G support, and look at the reason TivoBill stated- lack of linux drivers. That just sucks.

    Consumers want performance on connectivity issues, not empty promises of something that ought to be better for many hypothetical reasons, but isn't on all counts, given empirical evidence to the contrary.

    You may have missed my interactions with Mac zealots, I am an equal opportunity offender. Though I have not had the same pleasure here with MS/ generic PC PVR advocates, I am fully ready to debunk their preposterous propositions. I agree with your general statements regarding stock MCE or any other generalized PC approach versus a highly simplified, limited and tested UI as pioneered by Tivo.
     
  13. rog

    rog urban achiever

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    Jan 12, 2005
    Oregon
    I'm just going to agree to disagree here. I don't have time to respond to that lengthy post in detail.

    You make some valid points, but in the end, you're still asking for TiVo to switch over to a Microsoft or Apple platform. I think that is a bad idea, for reasons I already stated. You have certainly not changed my mind.

    I also think you are in the minority with some of the features you are asking for. You should build your own DVR, in my humble opinion. It could do everything you're asking for.

    TiVo is what it is primarily because of its simplicity and ease of use.
     
  14. Justin Thyme

    Justin Thyme Contra sceleris

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    Mar 29, 2005
    No man is an island.

    Same goes for Tivo.

    Demand for device connectivity in the home does not equal demand for a Desktop UI, vertical boxes and noisy fans.

    Tivo can ignore that demand at its peril.
     
  15. dachtler

    dachtler New Member

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    Oct 21, 2002
    Is there any update on support for the Linksys WUSB54GS wireless adapters? I just bought two of these from newegg.com to connect my mother-in-law's two TiVos, and forgot to check if these were compatibile before ordering them. Before I return them, and pay the 15% restocking fee, I wanted to check to see if they might be supported. My mother-in-law has a 240 series 40hr and a 590 series Humax 80hr unit.
     
  16. ScottEllsworth

    ScottEllsworth New Member

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    Jul 16, 2004
    Hi, Bill.

    I understand that this feature may take some time to implement, but it is worth that time. WEP can be cracked, and with the amount of traffic a TiVo can generate, can be cracked quickly. WPA cannot be easily cracked unless you pick a poor password.

    Getting support for WPA would dramatically increase the security of our home networks.

    Again, I understand that it is not easy. It is, however, worth it.

    Scott
     
  17. alinke

    alinke New Member

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    Oct 12, 2004

    Hey Bill, was wondering when 7.1 and USB 2.0 support will be available for the Toshiba TIVOs. I'm on a wired network so I was wondering if the USB 2.0 support would make a significant improvement for multi-room and for mp3's. thanks.
     
  18. Agro

    Agro New Member

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    Apr 20, 2003
    San Diego, CA
    I am about ready to put a bullet in my head. I called TiVo, got Sony's number, got 4 different departments are Sony, every single one asked me 30 questions (wasting 15 minutes of my time per number) and then had no way to help me.

    I have an SVR-3000.
    I want to use a wireless USB adapter
    I purchased a NETGEAR WG-111RV, which did not work with my TiVo.

    I read this post about how it says...
    - These new adapters work only with newer Series2 boxes that TiVo service numbers that start with 230, 240, 264, 540, 590.

    My service number starts with 1100000b01xxxxxx

    Can anyone give me some recommendations on what exactly I need to buy? I would love to use the other Home networking features, but at this time I have no programming info (it ran out when i most to a plaec with no phone) and need that info asap.

    Thank you!!!
     
  19. rog

    rog urban achiever

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    Jan 12, 2005
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    Agro: do you have version 7.x on your TiVo? Without it, you won't be able to take advantage of TiVoToGo and some of the other networking features. I think multi-room viewing (MRV) may work on earlier versions, but I'm not sure.
     
  20. stevengeringer

    stevengeringer New Member

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    Apr 6, 2005
    Hey TiVo Bill:

    Will these new adapters actually WORK? The reason I ask is because I have a Netgear MA111 (Version 1) that the TiVo recognizes - and it connects to my home network - and then disconnects and "can't be found" after around 10 minutes. I have to unplug and replug the adapter EVERY TIME for it to work again for the few minutes.

    TiVo To Go - or anything relating to the wireless adapter - is absolutely useless for me due to this problem.

    ...and I know I'm not the only one experiencing this. Check out other postings...there are A LOT of reported problems.

    Maybe you can look into fixing problems while also adding new adapters?

    TiVo Customer Support is clueless too. Kind of pointless having the wireless adapter when all I can stay on the network is 10 minutes, tops!

    - Steve

    Comcast, Series 2 DVR, 40 hours, Netgear MA111 (Version 1), version 7.1 currently installed on the TiVo.
     

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