5TB Bolt Drive to 7.68TB SSD Upgrade, Best Approach?

Discussion in 'TiVo Upgrade Center' started by zombiephysicist, Mar 19, 2019.

  1. zombiephysicist

    zombiephysicist Member

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    Hi All:

    I'm about to upgrade my (already upgraded) 5TB bolt to a 7.68TB Micron SSD. If possible, I would like to get the shows off my current 5TB drive onto the 7.68TB SSD. I'm not sure what the best way to go about doing that and would like any suggestions.

    OPTION A: I *think* MFS Tools 3.2 should probably let me do this? I assume it's some app I run under windows with both drives plugged in, and hopefully straight forward?

    OPTION B: Or, do I use, instead MFS Reformatter and some combination of that with MFS Tools 3.2?

    Would appreciate any thoughts/suggestions. Thanks!
     
  2. ThAbtO

    ThAbtO TiVoholic by the bay TCF Club

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    MSFTools is not a Windows app, it really is either a bootable CD/USB stick that is linux based.

    I think its limited to 4TB for Roamio and Bolts, although I believe that MFSTools don't work right on Bolts.

    MFSR should be called an expander since it expands the drive beyond the 3TB default max Roamio/Bolts can format to. You would plug the new/blank drive into the Roamio/Bolt for it to initalize it, then connect to a Windows 7+ PC to expand to the limits of the drive.

    I have done it on my Roamio from its original 500GB to the current 4TB WD Red drive, and its been running for about 5 yrs, at about 35% full.
     
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  3. zombiephysicist

    zombiephysicist Member

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    I see, so since it is limited to 4TB, then I guess I need to use MFS Reformatter to make a 7.68TB partition. So assuming I do this, will MFSTools be able to see that larger partition and let me copy media from the old 5TB drive over. Or will it fail to work because it's unable to deal with anything larger than 4TB?
     
  4. ThAbtO

    ThAbtO TiVoholic by the bay TCF Club

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    Your "7.68TB" drive may actually be a 8TB, as there are no 7.xxTB drives made. There also would not be a 7.6TB partition. Tivo is unlike your common PC that runs on a single partition. It uses up to about 14 partitions. Each partition may be limited in size which depends on its function.

    As noted previously, I doubt MFSTools work on Bolts. unless its been updated to work on Bolts..

    With MFSR you would be starting anew with a blank drive prepped to a Tivo.

    There are other programs like KMTTG, to download non-copy-protected shows to a computer/PC/Mac, as well as backup/restore the passes. (as long as the drive still works in the Tivo.) You would need PyTivo/Desktop to put shows back to the Tivo newer drive, albeit one at a time.

    Appending to your other thread: If you use standby and the software version v21.7+/Hydra/TE4... There is a bug where it may not wake up from standby properly and would require a reboot. Also, this version does not allow transfers of shows from a computer anymore, although Tivo to Tivo (Premiere and above) seems to still work, just have to use online.tivo.com to do it. There are lots of other bugs with this version.

    It can be downgradable (rather upgrade) to v20.7+, but if you have a VOX model, you lose that function, but gain the ability to transfer shows as noted above.[/QUOTE]
     
    Last edited: Mar 19, 2019
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  5. zombiephysicist

    zombiephysicist Member

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    Thanks. Well the drive is listed as that, so not sure what to tell you about that. See here: https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B07JQ2F2WG/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_asin_title_o02_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1

    Thank you regarding noting MFSTools might not work. That's a bummer. But appreciate the info.

    So basically, I have to use MFSR to format a blank drive and just lose my recordings on the other TiVo.

    The TiVo to TiVo transfer will not work as this upgrade is on the same TiVo. Bummer.

    As for dangers of Standby. It's worked so well for me, knock wood, so not sure what to say about it. But if I understand your version numbers, I'm using the "traditional" UI and have not upgraded to the new UI, so maybe that's another benefit of staying with the old UI! :D

    Thank you so much for your insights. Much appreciated!
     
  6. ThAbtO

    ThAbtO TiVoholic by the bay TCF Club

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    There are just too many bugs in the "newer" UI/Hydra/TE4/v21.7+ to even recommend upgrading to. Better to keep using v20.7+/TE3...
     
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  7. jmbach

    jmbach der Neuerer

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    It might be possible with MFSTools if the recordings are reduced to less than 4TB of space. I have not really explored the shrink functionality of MFSTools yet so I do not know if this works as I expect it to.

    The idea is this, use mfscopy -sam 2000 source target to copy and shrink the recording space to about 4TB.

    If that is successful, then we can expand the drive to use the full recording space with the technique in the 10TB Roamio thread. The caveat is that you will need the a modified MFSTools version angra and I are working on. This version allows mfsadd to add a pair of partitions that mfsaddfix will move.

    The key would be if the mfscopy command works to shrink the recording space and copies the recordings successfully.
     
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  8. zombiephysicist

    zombiephysicist Member

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    Thanks, it's 5TB and 100% full. I guess I could go in and prune a lot of shows off first and then try it.

    But isnt the problem it cannot even deal see over 4TB? So since this is on 5TB it sounds like a recipe for nuking data... Which I'll probably end up doing regardless... Hmm, thanks for the thought.
     
  9. jmbach

    jmbach der Neuerer

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    The command will restrict the copy to 4TB. The added partitions will expand the recording space to the full size of the drive. Each added partition pair would add up to 2TB of recording space.
     
  10. zombiephysicist

    zombiephysicist Member

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    How does the restriction to 4TB work? Will it restrict it to the first 2 2TB partitions. Or to 4TB of actual content? Because I think I can easily delete 20% of the recordings on there so there is under 4TB of content, but it will still be on a 5TB space (and I'm not sure how it's partitioned, I let MSFR do it's thing in partitioning it to use the full 5TB--ie it could be 3 1.6TB partitions, or 2 2TB partitions and 1 1TB partition).

    Thanks for the help.
     
  11. jmbach

    jmbach der Neuerer

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    Consider using kmttg to offload that 20% to a NAS or your computer's hard drive.

    The command creates two 2TB media partitions and then in theory copies the recordings over as long as there are not more recordings than space available.
     
  12. HerronScott

    HerronScott Well-Known Member

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    MFS Tools 3.2

    Scott
     
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  13. HerronScott

    HerronScott Well-Known Member

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    And possibly for larger drives as well. :)

    10TB Bolt?

    Scott
     
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  14. zombiephysicist

    zombiephysicist Member

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    Thanks guys. I tried the MFSTools 3.3. Made a USB thupmbstick, but my surfacebook wouldnt boot it, so I just gave up. I did install the SSD. MFS Formatter did it's job and it formatted out to over 7100MBs and resulted in well ever 1200 HD recording hours.

    So now we'll see how long it lasts.

    Initial notes. The boot time etc isn't any faster. Which makes sense as I have come to realize, the Bolt has some kind of mini SD card boot device somewhere on it. The OS boots from that. So the only "speed up" the Bolt will gain might be when it's trying to get a listing of shows while it's heavily being written to. So I suspect in general, it should seem like the same speed.

    The one benefit I did instantly feel was the lack of anxiety of moving the bolt around while it's working. Without a real spinning drive moving the bolt around is now anxiety free, no fear of a drive crash.

    Anyway, let's see how long this puppy lasts.

    I'm going to cross post this in this thread to give feedback on how long this drive might last.

    Success Upgrading Bolt(+) with 4TB, 5TB + 2.5" Internal Drives?

    Thanks for everyone's help!
     
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  15. ggieseke

    ggieseke Well-Known Member

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    Between UEFI BIOS and SecureBoot, it's tough to boot a modern-day computer like a surfacebook into anything but the installed OS.

    Roamios and Bolts run the OS from flash memory on the motherboard, and on Bolts even the main database is on flash. I wouldn't expect much improvement (if any) in overall performance. It's still an interesting experiment if you can afford it, so keep us updated.
     
  16. ThAbtO

    ThAbtO TiVoholic by the bay TCF Club

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    That is one expensive experiment, especially since its 4x the cost of a conventional 8TB.
     
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  17. multiple

    multiple Member

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    Hi zombiephysicist,

    How's this drive holding out for you? I'm taking the plunge and buying this drive at rakuten for slight over $800 with the 15% discount.

    I'm expecting the following longevity for this SSD drive...
    9.60 MB/s for 19.2Mbps*4 tuners - the rate is likely a lot less than this due to additional compression used by cable but I'll assume the drive write amplification issue will offset this
    829440 MB/day
    7444889 MB Formatted drive size in MB (assuming your 7.1TB formatted drive size above)
    8.98 Days to fill drive
    1346 Days till 150 drive writes - expected drive failure
    3.69 Number years before expected drive failure, no sleep
    7.38 Number years before expected drive failure with 50% sleep
     
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  18. zombiephysicist

    zombiephysicist Member

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    Well it's only been about 2 months, but it's fine. So it's too soon to tell.

    I set the TiVo to go to Low standby mode, so it goes to sleep after 4hrs of inactivity and still records suggestions. That said, my Harmon remote puts the TiVo into standby whenever I turn it off. So the reality is that live 6 tuner 24/7 recording will not occur.

    https://support.tivo.com/articles/Features_Use/Power-Saving-and-Standby-Modes

    This post has links regarding what the real perils are IMO (TLDR; Live TV 24/7 6 tuner caching is the drive killer, so avoid it being engaged 24/7):

    Success Upgrading Bolt(+) with 4TB, 5TB + 2.5" Internal Drives?

    UPDATED: Also this post is useful in it discusses how many writes this micron enterprise drive is capable of as it is designed for a LOT of database read/writs:

    MFS Reformatter (mfsr)

    The bottom line for me is I think this drive has as much endurance as a regular hard drive, but just making sure you let the TiVo sleep so its 24/7 6 tuner live recording cache doesnt run 24/7 is likely the difference between the drive lasting say 5 years to the drive lasting say 15 years.

    Knocking wood. So far, so good. But my usage so far is only 4% of the drive is used. So time has yet to tell the durability of the drive.

    No real feeling of the TiVo being snappier. Even, sadly, when fast forwarding, it doesnt really feel any snappier. The only real plusses is it's a really big internal drive on the Bolt, and I feel zero fear moving the bolt around even when it's recording, because their are no moving parts.

    Great deal on the drive BTW, the prices are dropping like rocks, which is great!
     
    Last edited: May 10, 2019
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  19. justen_m

    justen_m Cheesehead

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    Not that surprising. e.g. Back in the Series 3 time frame, TiVO<->PC file transfers were limited to around 12Mbps. The network was 100Mbps, the HDD even faster. The bottleneck was the slow-ass CPU on the TiVo. I suspect something similar here. The drive isn't the bottleneck. It's either the internal bus bandwidth or the CPU itself, depending on how data is copied from the drive buffer to main memory. Or, when fast forwarding, the computations required to index the frames in the data stream. Shrug. Same goes for boot times. The CPU is probably pegged when booting from a HDD, so an SSD won't make much of a difference. PCs, with fast Intel/AMD CPUs see a huge improvement, but not devices running from a relatively slow, cheap SoCs.
     
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  20. multiple

    multiple Member

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    Prices are still dropping quickly. You can now get the Micron 5210 Ion 7.68TB drive @ Rakuten for $684 using the 20% coupon today (probably available once a month for about one or two days). I should say it cost me $664 (-1% (this is sometime up to 6%) if you register your credit card at ebates.com, then another -2% by using a 2% cash back card). I couldn't resist and ordered another one.
     
    Last edited: Jun 20, 2019
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