4 Digit Sky radio channels - Discussion

Discussion in 'TiVo Series 1 - UK' started by scoopuk, Apr 1, 2005.

  1. Sep 12, 2005 #41 of 271
    mrtickle

    mrtickle Active Member

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    Ok perhaps I'm panicking a bit early.

    The Freeview option (2nd input, RF mono) would give me mono recordings which is no good. Satellite (and possibly cable) is the only platform that broadcasts BBC7 in stereo, and many of the programmes are in stereo. Even DAB, the so-called future of radio, broadcasts BBC7 in 1960's style mono.

    I think the chances of Sky changing their entire plans for the EPG's future and doing a u-turn on 4 digit channels just for TiVo are smaller than the chances of TiVo producing a software upgrade, and both are tiny. In my view our only hope is a hack working on multiple levels
    * getting radio listings from the Freeview part of a dual Sky+Freeview lineup and splicing them back onto the Sky (stereo scart input) lineup.
    * handling the channel-changes
     
  2. Sep 12, 2005 #42 of 271
    Captain Scarlet

    Captain Scarlet New Member

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    Spectrum...
    I thought that was the British model of customer service response Gary? ;) :D Americans usually seem very concerned to do something if a lot of customers complain.

    Politicians have to take notice of lots of complaints as opposed to only a few. Circular letters and petitions about contentious planning applications for instance are the norm and are expected. Toys are not thrown out of the pram as a result. Getting lots of complaints helps indicate the matter is a hot potato and that something needs to be done.

    In my experience it seems to be engineering types who get upset about receiving a lot of complaints and who seem take it as some kind of personal slight for whatever reasons. Obviously I woud admit that historically speaking though Tivo is a rather engineering led as opposed to customer service led company.
     
  3. Sep 12, 2005 #43 of 271
    Captain Scarlet

    Captain Scarlet New Member

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    Spectrum...
    But MrTickle have you taken into account that of the 20,000+ Tivos sold and in operation perhaps only 1,000 or so have owners who are capable of instituting the hacks that you mention. I would in particular suspect that 95% of the £10 per month subscription payers are not capable of rectifying the 4 digit radio programs problem using the hacking method mentioned.

    Is the problem with Tivo switching to all 4 digit channel numbers the fact that it would also want to send 4 digit numbers to Freeview and cable boxes too and some of them would then get confused by receiving a 4 digit signal?
     
  4. Sep 12, 2005 #44 of 271
    Markj

    Markj New Member

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    Jul 12, 2003
    It would seem that we are nothing more than a loss making pain in the arse for both Tivo and SKY, this would seem to be as good an excuse as any for Tivo to ditch a few more subscribers and coax them over to SKY+. This will also happen on the cables, they too will run out of channels and then thats it, bye bye the loss making Tivo UK.

    Hope I am wrong
     
  5. Sep 12, 2005 #45 of 271
    Captain Scarlet

    Captain Scarlet New Member

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    Spectrum...
    Didn't you mean to say this will be a good excuse for Sky to get rid of a few more Tivo subscribers and coax them over to SKy+?

    I don't think Tivo have anything to gain from us ditching our Tivo subscriptions. In fact if we are monthly Tivo subscribers it is actually going to cost them money so long as they continue having to run the service for the rest of the subscribers.
     
  6. Sep 12, 2005 #46 of 271
    GarySargent

    GarySargent New Member

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    Just to repeat, the issue is not four digit channels, it is four digit channels which start with a zero. The scope of the issue is limited.
     
  7. Sep 12, 2005 #47 of 271
    Captain Scarlet

    Captain Scarlet New Member

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    Spectrum...
    I would have thought that the existing Tivo setup options for saying whether or not you want to send leading zeros in IR commands would have coped with all this provided Tivo allowed all Sky channel numbers to have up to four digits?
     
  8. Sep 12, 2005 #48 of 271
    Markj

    Markj New Member

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    Jul 12, 2003
    I am just pointing out that if Tivo UK is a loss making venture, or soon to be a loss making venture (shrinking subscriber base) this would seem to be another point at which many subscribers could say that enough is enough and move on. That leaves a business that is being administed in the UK by SKY dont forget who know what it will take for Tivo to pull the plug, with a convenient exit piont and the SKY gamekeeper to turn poacher and pick up those eager £10 a month subscribers for it shinny new HD service.
    Dont forget that the reason we all went for Tivo is that it was cutting edge technology and although in most aspects nothing can come close to it, it has reached a cross roads with a change in broadcast technology just around the corner.

    Again I hope I am wrong and I will run my Tivo as long as It lasts, but even I cant wait to see a bit of HDTV on my HI res screen.
     
  9. Sep 12, 2005 #49 of 271
    Captain Scarlet

    Captain Scarlet New Member

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    Spectrum...
    I don't believe that Sky Digital have developed a cunning plan especially to in order to destory the Tivo S1 subscriber base as it simply isn't big enough to be worth them worrying about.

    But equally I think that from their point of view Tivo is insignificant enough that they can just ignore the inconvenience they are causing it without expecting to face any consequences from one of their uk customers (i.e. Tivo).
     
  10. Sep 13, 2005 #50 of 271
    xxxx

    xxxx New Member

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    Oct 17, 2002
    Over the...
    All Sky digibox users, with or without subscription, will be getting a free software update to handle the changes to the numbering system. Other manufacturers should do the same, where the equipment allows it. Tivo does allow for this so Tivo should do the same.
     
  11. Sep 13, 2005 #51 of 271
    blindlemon

    blindlemon tivoheaven.co.uk

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    Since TiVo are still providing (and accepting monthly subscription fees for) the EPG service, which has to cope with regular changes to the EPG such as the 'normal' addition/removal/renumbering of channels, I don't see that this is really any different.

    The fact that it will require a small change to the software (rather than to the EPG metadata) is a technical distinction only, IMHO. The facility to update the software exists and is well-proven, so the change to cope with 4-digit channel renumbering should be rolled out as part of the normal service for which thousands of people are still paying £10 per month.
     
  12. Sep 13, 2005 #52 of 271
    sanderton

    sanderton TiVoer since 11/2000

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    No, read through the threads on this issue to see why not.

    For those of us with hacked Tivos, this will be an inconveninece but not an insuperable one. We've identified two separate ways of overcoming the problem with hacks - however until they actually make the change its difficult to check which will work! Those with hacked TiVos may lose some EPG data for the smaller radio channels - but i'm not sure how much data those channels have anyway,
     
  13. Sep 13, 2005 #53 of 271
    Captain Scarlet

    Captain Scarlet New Member

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    Spectrum...
    Ermmm. None I think is your answer on the EPG data for the minor radio channels. Same reasons as for television channel True Movies on channel 333.

    I suppose for now I am in your potential hack using camp although I appreciate that getting cross or being ungrateful about why a Hack won't work is not allowed. ;) :)

    I like fully functional reliable hacks but am not so keen on those that require constant prodding in order to keep them operational. I know I should write my own but unfortunately I just don't have the relevant mindset.
     
  14. Sep 13, 2005 #54 of 271
    Captain Scarlet

    Captain Scarlet New Member

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    Blindlemon I am with you 100% in your thinking here. To go on charging £10 per month for a service that no longer works properly is very poor indeed. Especially as the dollar value of that 10 pounds per month has gone up considerably over the last few years. Also they must be earning some interest on all those 200 pounds they have been keeping nicely in a bank account somewhere. ;) :rolleyes: :eek:

    One reason that Tivo may be planning to do nothing at all is that Tivo Inc may well not realise how unhappy we all are because the jokers at Sky Tivo customer services will probably not have been passing our telephone feedback back to them (their objective after all is actually to make the Tivo service redundant and force us to buy Sky Plus/HD).

    That is why I recommended emailing Tivo Inc's senior management, even though Gary and Stuart etc then rather predictably choose to see this as whingeing.
     
  15. Sep 13, 2005 #55 of 271
    Ollie

    Ollie New Member

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    Does Sky+ have full advance listings for radio channels in the EPG? (Standard Sky doesn't.) If not, then it's not a viable solution to this issue.
     
  16. Sep 13, 2005 #56 of 271
    GarySargent

    GarySargent New Member

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  17. Sep 13, 2005 #57 of 271
    OzSat

    OzSat Very Nice Moderator

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    Oxfordshire, UK
    At present, only the now information is available for radio on Sky+ - not even details of the next programme is carried.
     
  18. Sep 13, 2005 #58 of 271
    Captain Scarlet

    Captain Scarlet New Member

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    Spectrum...
    Gary,

    A poll of members of this forum would be meaningless since inevitably we are all the fanatical Tivoites who (a) expected to run our Tivos into the ground and (b) as the kind of people bright/confident enough to open our boxes and change things tend to be somewhat better at maths than Mr and Mrs Average.

    It is entirely probable that 80%+ of members of this forum have lifetime subs but equally probable that many people who are non technical and don't ever visit/join this forum still all pay lifetime subs. Also more people may pay monthly than you may realise because the several thousand people who bought an end of line discontinued Tivo were all prepared to pay £99 to £199 for a box to give it a try but wondered how much longer Tivo might operate the UK service. I bit the bullet and paid the lfetime sub after one month and now I am perhaps £95 up compared to subscribing monthly (that is £320 of subs minus around the £25 interest I could have earned in a cash ISA on the £200 in the 30 month interim). But if people didn't do that straight away then having paid £200 in monthly subs it is very difficult to steal yourself to pay £200 for lifetime service. Better you would kid yourself to go on at only £10 per month while half convincing yourself that at least you won't lose out if Tivo UK folds in 3 months time.

    From Tivo boxes being sold on ebay (even by previously keen users who have now gone to Sky Plus according to their ads) the evidence is that the majority of Tivo boxes are actually not lifetime subbed. Of course I do realise that anyone who has a lifetime sub is far less likely to sell off their Tivo.

    So please don't run a meaningless poll on here about Lifetime Subs with Tivocommunity users. It would really be far more useful to see if Tivo Inc is willing to reveal the actual number of uk monthly subscribers. After all if they only have 3,000 then they would have rather more justification for not being prepared to provide a new software release.

    Just as a thought Tivo could offer to sell us the software upgrade for a one off £20. My maths says that on 15,000 boxes (perhaps the number of Tivo Sky Digital users) at £20 each that's £300,000 which ought to cover the development costs. This would work by us being sent a message saying a new software upgrade would be provided if you called customer services to pay for it. Also as we know software downloads do seem to be capable of being made available on a box specific basis.

    So whilst accepting that Tivo Inc is not a charity there may in fact be a viable market solution here. After all a Lifetime sub to program data does not necessarily mean a Lifetime sub to software upgrades whichever way you look at it.
     
  19. Sep 13, 2005 #59 of 271
    Captain Scarlet

    Captain Scarlet New Member

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    Spectrum...
    I don't want to incur Gary's wrath but can I suggest that everyone reading this thread who wants to see Tivo update their software to cope with the Sky radio channel number changes votes on Gary's poll to say they have a monthly subbed box (even if they actually have a lifetime sub).

    Otherwise Gary is going to use a poll of 25 completely atypical Tivo users as an excuse for Tivo sitting on its hands over this one.
     
  20. Sep 13, 2005 #60 of 271
    Captain Scarlet

    Captain Scarlet New Member

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    Spectrum...
    May be but we don't want to vote to say we have a lifetime sub now do we. ;) :)

    After all Turkeys are rarely to be found casting a vote for an early xmas

    So as I said I Pay Monthly. :rolleyes: :D

    By the way this doesn't seem to be a proper forum poll with percentages etc.

    Here is the post I made in the thread that led to Gary starting this so called Poll:-

    ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    Gary,

    A poll of members of this forum would be meaningless since inevitably we are all the fanatical Tivoites who (a) expected to run our Tivos into the ground and (b) as the kind of people bright/confident enough to open our boxes and change things tend to be somewhat better at maths than Mr and Mrs Average.

    It is entirely probable that 80%+ of members of this forum have lifetime subs but equally probable that many people who are non technical and don't ever visit/join this forum still all pay lifetime subs. Also more people may pay monthly than you may realise because the several thousand people who bought an end of line discontinued Tivo were all prepared to pay £99 to £199 for a box to give it a try but wondered how much longer Tivo might operate the UK service. I bit the bullet and paid the lfetime sub after one month and now I am perhaps £95 up compared to subscribing monthly (that is £320 of subs minus around the £25 interest I could have earned in a cash ISA on the £200 in the 30 month interim). But if people didn't do that straight away then having paid £200 in monthly subs it is very difficult to steal yourself to pay £200 for lifetime service. Better you would kid yourself to go on at only £10 per month while half convincing yourself that at least you won't lose out if Tivo UK folds in 3 months time.

    From Tivo boxes being sold on ebay (even by previously keen users who have now gone to Sky Plus according to their ads) the evidence is that the majority of Tivo boxes are actually not lifetime subbed. Of course I do realise that anyone who has a lifetime sub is far less likely to sell off their Tivo.

    So please don't run a meaningless poll on here about Lifetime Subs with Tivocommunity users. It would really be far more useful to see if Tivo Inc is willing to reveal the actual number of uk monthly subscribers. After all if they only have 3,000 then they would have rather more justification for not being prepared to provide a new software release.

    Just as a thought Tivo could offer to sell us the software upgrade for a one off £20. My maths says that on 15,000 boxes (perhaps the number of Tivo Sky Digital users) at £20 each that's £300,000 which ought to cover the development costs. This would work by us being sent a message saying a new software upgrade would be provided if you called customer services to pay for it. Also as we know software downloads do seem to be capable of being made available on a box specific basis.

    So whilst accepting that Tivo Inc is not a charity there may in fact be a viable market solution here. After all a Lifetime sub to program data does not necessarily mean a Lifetime sub to software upgrades whichever way you look at it.
     

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