12 Monkeys - Season 4

Discussion in 'Now Playing - TV Show Talk' started by robojerk, Jun 19, 2018.

  1. Rob Helmerichs

    Rob Helmerichs I am Groot! TCF Club

    Oct 17, 2000


    No, without James time travel never happened, and thus the plague never happened.
  2. Tony_T

    Tony_T Well-Known Member

    Nov 2, 2017
    But James travelled back in time (so we could have the warm fuzzy ending of James with Cassie)

    I enjoyed the show, but the movie was much better.
  3. leswar

    leswar leswar

    Apr 14, 2005
    Vero Beach
    I thought everybody, the writers and actors had fun with the last season; an obligatory Star Trek-like Nazi episode w/ great lingerie! How neat was that! Loved Amanda Schull's gun action ( "I'm a better shot then you'). Let's get everybody in on the end. I sensed a general playfulness and a wink of the eye to the audience by the cast. And in case you "skip"ed over the commercials Amanda Schull is appearing in a show I've never seen before,
    Suits. Guess I'll have to start watching now.
    tim1724 likes this.
  4. wprager

    wprager Well-Known Member

    Feb 19, 2006
    Ottawa, Canada
    Suits, yeah, they had an opening in the cast when one of the regulars ran off and married a Prince. She goes by The Duchess of Sussex, now.
  5. teknikel

    teknikel Member

    Jan 27, 2002


    I get going for the joke but she was on Suits before 12 Monkeys.
    tim1724 likes this.
  6. mr.unnatural

    mr.unnatural Well-Known Member

    Feb 2, 2006
    Cole was supposed to be completely erased from the timeline but Katrina(?) figured out a loophole to keep him alive. Apparently there was no way to alter the timeline to save everyone from the plague, which was the original premise of the show, so the 17 billion that died were doomed from the start. However, they did manage to save the world from the red forest and keep the Witness from destroying time. I liked the way they tied up the loose ends and showed the origin of the partial corpse in the jar that carried the plague. It was a happy ending for Cole and Cassie and I was fine with that. The human race survived even after the devastating casualties so it was a happy ending from that standpoint.
  7. morac

    morac Cat God TCF Club

    Mar 14, 2003
    They did save everyone. The plague came about because of everything Cole did. By removing him from the timeline (except in one spot, which basically means he didn’t exist until that one moment), the cycle was broken so none of what was shown ever happened. There was no plague to release as Olivia never ended up going back in time to be the source since time travel was never invented.

    Everything that was shown happening up until the point Cole erases himself never occurred so Katarina was alive and living with her daughter. Deacon was alive. Ramsey was alive with his son in a non-plagued world, etc.
    tim1724 likes this.
  8. wprager

    wprager Well-Known Member

    Feb 19, 2006
    Ottawa, Canada
    Yes, I knew that. But she left and only did a guest spot once or twice until recently. I believe she's back now, as a regular. Although I wonder how long the show continues without Mike and Rachel (I'm assuming they aren't re-casting the role or killing her off or splitting them up).
  9. BitbyBlit

    BitbyBlit .

    Aug 25, 2001
    Well, I guess I was wrong about this. Good thing I left in that 1% uncertainty. :D

    Although, in my defense, they didn't explain why Cole had felt queasy near the skeleton, so I contend that they had initially planned for it to be Cole, and then changed it to be Olivia because they wanted Cole alive at the end.

    I agree. In fact, they could have done both.

    They could have realized that even though Cole needed to be removed from the timeline, it didn't have to be that Cole. Cassie could have done the rest of whatever she needed to do in the past, and then she and Cole could have lived out the rest of their lives somewhere (and when). The rest of the team could have then retrieved their bodies, and planted Cassie's where it would be found in the hospital. They would then have taken Cole's, and used the machine on it.

    The first try would have failed, breaking apart the body, and sending the top half into the past. They would have then realized that Jennifer and Ramse, who were still there, needed to go to the past to complete their cycles, thus reducing the "paradox potential" enough for the Cole to be erased. After they got sent back, Jones, in her dying moments, would have activated the machine on the remaining half of Cole's body.

    Cassie's words about death being undone, but love not would have carried extra weight with this ending. (Particularly with flashbacks of her and Cole living the rest of their lives together.) And I think it would have made Cole's sacrifice more impactful. The main premise of the show was about enjoying the moments one has, and being willing to accept endings. Having it end with Cole and Cassie being able to live a happy life together, but Cole still being erased would have made the ending more satisfying to me.

    That being said, I still greatly enjoyed it. In spite of the fact that I didn't think the ending was ideal, I still thought they did an excellent job of tying everything up. Pulling Ramse out of the timeline was great. Even though it wasn't completely out-of-place to have him have a change of heart as he was dying, having the change of heart come due to an interaction with future Cole was even better.

    Having past Deacon help out was great too, and was a much better explanation for why he forgave Cole and Ramse leaving him to die than, "I would have done the same thing, so I understand." As with Ramse, while that explanation wasn't completely out-of-place, I liked the new one a lot better.
  10. Craigbob

    Craigbob Well-Known Member

    Dec 1, 2006
    Land of...
    I finally finished this season. Damn.. I will really miss this show. Like Highlander, the show surpassed it's source of inspiration, though Highlander was much more directly tied to the movie(s).

    It was a hell of a rollercoaster of a season and I doff my hat to the writers for keeping it all straight. How they tied every thing together including events from earlier seasons was masterful.

    I don't have an issue with Cole and Cassie getting a happy ending. And I loved how they brought everyone back together for the final battle.

    All in all, a very satisfying series finale.
  11. cheesesteak

    cheesesteak Meh. TCF Club

    Jul 24, 2003
    15 mins...
    I forgot I had the final season tivo'd and binged it over the last three days. It was as good as a confusing, labyrinthian series could be. I had to fast forward through Jennifer's Nazi song and dance routine though. Way too silly.

    And for once, will the good guy please kill the bad guy when they have the perfect opportunity? Cassie had just beat the crap out of Olivia and just left her there, laying on the ground instead of killing her. Of course, Olivia is going to regain consciousness and whomp the crap out of her! Does Cassie not watch tv or something?

    I can't remember the exact quote or the episode but I remember Deacon saying something to the effect that Olivia talks too much. I spent about a third of her scenes yelling "Shuuuuutttt uuuuuuup!" in my head. And like most fictional meglomaniacs, her reason for wanting to destroy time and the universe didn't make too much sense.
    Last edited: Aug 22, 2018
  12. tim1724

    tim1724 Active Member

    Jul 3, 2007
    Temple City, CA
    Fast forward through Jennifer? But… Jennifer! There's never enough Jennifer Goines.
    jlb, Craigbob, morac and 1 other person like this.
  13. mattack

    mattack Well-Known Member

    Apr 9, 2001
    I just checked.. I have season 3 on one of my Tivo, S4 on another. I _will_ eventually watch them, and have actually thought about it the past few days. I never quite binge (technically 3 or more episodes at a time), but do concentrate on a single show sometimes. I did finally catch up to this season's Elementary over the past week or two.. (I think I did watch about 2.5 eps in one day across two separate sessions, but fell asleep.. so almost a binge).

    But I remember watching S2 was probably one of the other close-to-binge times I watched a show, JUST to be able to keep the plot in my head.
  14. jr461

    jr461 Well-Known Member

    Jul 9, 2004
    Northern NJ
    I'm a couple of years late to the party but just finished and did enjoy it, although lots of times it was confusing.

    A couple of things I don't get:
    1. Why did the master plan need a plague if the goal was to destroy time anyway?
    2. How did Deacon return, and why was he a different Deacon, without memories of what had happened until he was beheaded?
    justen_m likes this.
  15. robojerk

    robojerk Well-Known Member

    Jun 13, 2006
    Laguna Hills CA
    It's been a few years. I think the plague was just copying the movie, then it was just a plot device used to have a barren future..

    Only those injected with the serum to time jump were unaffected by time changes. Deacon hadn't been injected yet, plus I think he was brought back because he was a favorite character.

    It's been awhile so I might be wrong..
    jr461 likes this.
  16. robojerk

    robojerk Well-Known Member

    Jun 13, 2006
    Laguna Hills CA
    Also I think the writers changed their mind on some things. Like in an earlier season Cole reacted to the frozen corpse that was the source of the virus. He reacted like he did when he got close to one of his doubles which would cause a paradox.
    Last edited: Jul 24, 2020
    jr461 likes this.
  17. BitbyBlit

    BitbyBlit .

    Aug 25, 2001
    The plague was the reason that time travel was invented, and was part of the cycle that created Titan. Olivia was also created as part of that cycle, so while stopping the plague might have resulted in a paradox sufficient to destroy time, it likely would have destroyed her as well. Olivia's goal in destroying time was to live forever, not cease to exist.

    He did remember, but just didn't tell anyone, knowing that he needed to fulfill his cycle in order for events to play out as they did. This was why he was so quick to forgive Cole and Ramse for turning him over to The Foreman.

    From Season 2, Episode 5:

  18. BitbyBlit

    BitbyBlit .

    Aug 25, 2001
    I realized you might have been asking how Deacon returned to Titan, not his timeline. So just to answer that question as well, Titan had jumped back to 2043 (the year from which Cole first time traveled). The Deacon that showed up at Titan was present day Deacon before he invaded the splinter facility. He didn't have any memory of what had happened because they hadn't happened to him yet.

    After he helped with Titan, he continued on living out the events of his life that we saw throughout most of the series. At that point, he had knowledge that nobody else except older Jennifer had.
  19. jr461

    jr461 Well-Known Member

    Jul 9, 2004
    Northern NJ
    Thanks for the explanations. I still don't get why the plague was the reason time travel was invented but I'll just accept.

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