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TiVo Launches $50 Streaming Video Player to Take On Apple TV, Roku, Amazon Fire TV

139K views 2K replies 213 participants last post by  NashGuy 
#1 ·
#2,037 · (Edited)
What functionality that's typical of an Android TV device with these hardware specs did TiVo take away? Seems to me that they only added stuff with the TiVo Stream app and a remote control with additional buttons that cater to traditional linear TV. Granted, there are stability issues/bugs, some of which TiVo has addressed and some which they say they're still working on.
There are quite a few A/V options that come with stock Android (which are present on Mi Box, for example) that they removed some reason that is undoubtedly stupid. The short of it is that they took something functional and broke it. I'm guessing it's sheer incompetence, but it also wouldn't surprise me to find out that they're doing a lot of data collection under the covers, and that the modifications to Android TV for this purpose is a large part of what's causing issues. Given the (relatively) high amount of data that's being sent from these dongles (way more than with my Mi Box or Fire Stick 4K), it's plausible.

They still haven't fixed the black flashing from Plex and Kodi. Again, probably related to some A/V settings they messed with.

As for the remote, it seems that the only people who find it to be a positive addition are those who use previous TiVo products. The reason other streaming devices have simplified remotes is because the extra buttons are pointless. And TiVo forgot useful buttons like FF and RW.

The specs that leaked for Sabrina shows that it has nearly the exact same hardware as the TS4K. While TiVo's dongle has the Amlogic S905Y2 system-on-a-chip, Sabrina has the Amlogic S905X2. The only real difference is that the latter supports ethernet while the former does not.

The hardware in the TS4K is the same thing that Google put in their ADT-3 dongle, released back in Jan. for Android TV developers. And the hardware in Sabrina is the exact same thing in the Verizon Stream TV box. All of these devices have the same CPU and GPU and the same 2GB of RAM and 8GB of storage.
No one has suggested otherwise. All of these dongles are running the same SoC and so there's no hardware advantage. It's all software; again, TiVo borked the software for some reason and I have more faith that other companies have not. I certainly expect Google's to operate smoothly and with features that are actually useful (unlike the Stream app).

The more I think about it, the more I'm convinced the TS4K exists for the sole purpose of data collection, so they can develop and refine the software / algorithms that are the company's only money maker. I think I'd rather pay $20-30 more for a functional device that isn't collecting as much (because of course the Google product will be data mining)...or at least is collecting it competently.
 
#2,038 ·
There are quite a few A/V options that come with stock Android (which are present on Mi Box, for example) that they removed some reason that is undoubtedly stupid. The short of it is that they took something functional and broke it. I'm guessing it's sheer incompetence, but it also wouldn't surprise me to find out that they're doing a lot of data collection under the covers, and that the modifications to Android TV for this purpose is a large part of what's causing issues. Given the (relatively) high amount of data that's being sent from these dongles (way more than with my Mi Box or Fire Stick 4K), it's plausible.

They still haven't fixed the black flashing from Plex and Kodi. Again, probably related to some A/V settings they messed with.
I doubt the bugs have anything to do with whatever data that the TiVo Stream app collects. I'd chalk it up to this being TiVo's first product like this and they didn't get the firmware right in the rush to get this out the door. Can't see how removing whatever A/V settings you're talking about would be related to data collection. Sounds a bit paranoid.

As for the remote, it seems that the only people who find it to be a positive addition are those who use previous TiVo products. The reason other streaming devices have simplified remotes is because the extra buttons are pointless. And TiVo forgot useful buttons like FF and RW.
Or people who want a remote that works with linear channel services too, such as Sling, TiVo+ and the Channels app (which now offers an option to customize the remote so that it works natively with their app). I would agree, though, that the 0-9 buttons are generally a waste unless they begin using channel numbers in the TiVo Stream's grid guide (although the Channels app does make use of them). As for FF and RW buttons, those aren't typical on Android TV remotes. You just use the left and right directional buttons.

The more I think about it, the more I'm convinced the TS4K exists for the sole purpose of data collection, so they can develop and refine the software / algorithms that are the company's only money maker.
To the extent that there's any real plan for how the TS4K will meaningfully contribute to the bottom line, I think it lies in a combination of thin margins on the hardware, ad revenue from TiVo+ content, user data collection, and maybe some cut from Google for subscriptions/purchases made on the device. But in the near term, I'd say the TS4K is more about corporate window dressing, to show that TiVo's product division is finally doing *something* about streaming.
 
#2,047 ·
I don't think "younger" viewers are any more likely to understand or care about things like HDR and PCM.

There are plenty of 25-35 year olds who have absolutely no clue what those mean and don't care about AV quality. And anyone under 25 is just watching on a laptop or handheld anyway :)

Video- and audio-philes know no age range.
That particular part of my post was mostly (though not entirely) kidding. You've seen my point: folks either don't care (and aren't going to "stumble" on A/V settings, change them, and then make their TS4K unusable) or they know exactly what they're looking for and will be annoyed (like I and others are) that TiVo removed options for no good reason.

I don't understand any defense of TiVo in this. Sure, some people care about the removal of options more than others, but the point is that leaving things alone would have been fine and removing them clearly isn't fine. Those who care are annoyed and those who don't care don't understand why others are annoyed. Seems to me it's folks who belong to the latter group who made software decisions regarding the TS4K.
 
#2,049 ·
I'm not sure that there are ANY Android TV devices on the market that have a similar systemwide "auto/native" setting to automatically switch between SDR and HDR (and their associated color spaces) depending on the source content.
My original (not S) Mi Box does this. If you'd like me to hook it up and take a picture of the settings screen showing this, I'll try to remember to do it next time I visit my parents. They don't have a 4K TV, though, let alone one that does HDR.
 
#2,050 ·
No, they haven't fixed the always-on HDR issue yet. But that's not some kind of A/V setting that is typically present on Android TV devices that TiVo omitted or botched. The norm among Android TV boxes/sticks/dongles is just to have HDR turned on of off systemwide. (That's the way the Apple TV 4K started off too but Apple quickly fixed that with a software update that added the "Dynamic Range Match" option.)
The HDR situation on Apple TV isn't much better than TS4K. If you can get it to display HDR properly with Disney+ and other services like Netflix, I'd love to see it. You either turn off HDR and matching, or Disney+ looks terrible.
 
#2,051 ·
I have my default output set to 4K SDR 60Hz with Dynamic Range Matching turned on on my ATV4K. It works fine. If something is available in HDR, it switches over to HDR output for just that video. Otherwise, it outputs everything in SDR. Never had a problem with anything looking bad in any app, including Disney+ (although I only did the one week trial for it, so didn't watch much).
 
#2,052 ·
The HDR situation on Apple TV isn't much better than TS4K. If you can get it to display HDR properly with Disney+ and other services like Netflix, I'd love to see it. You either turn off HDR and matching, or Disney+ looks terrible.
I have tried and been using this new LLDV dolby vision trick using an HDFury and it works awesome with an appletv 4k. It also works with 4k uhd blurays with dv and some players can also convert regular hd and uhd blurays to LLDV too. Results have been great!
 
#2,053 ·
I have my default output set to 4K SDR 60Hz with Dynamic Range Matching turned on on my ATV4K. It works fine. If something is available in HDR, it switches over to HDR output for just that video. Otherwise, it outputs everything in SDR. Never had a problem with anything looking bad in any app, including Disney+ (although I only did the one week trial for it, so didn't watch much).
Well when Disney+ switches to Dolby Vision, all colors become very muted. This has been widely reported. It may be dependent on certain TVs, not sure. The only solution is to turn off matching which keeps every SDR.
 
#2,054 ·
I don't think that has anything to do with Disney+ or Dolby Vision. I've found on my Apple TV with my Sony TV that a lot of HDR content is dark and drab, especially Marvel movies. Doesn't matter if I use DV or HDR10.

It looks slightly better on the apps on my TV itself, but I think that has more to do with the display settings on the TV.

I'm also not sure that's technically an "issue". HDR doesn't mean bright colors, it just means a wider range of colors. The content may be mastered to look drab. In other words that's the director's vision, even if people think it looks bad.

HDR tends to look darker in general because TV's don't correct the brightness for HDR like they do for SDR. There's no TV out there currently that can display the full range of brightness for Dolby Vision. Most are no where near close. I have a high end Sony and it's only capable of 1500 nits. Many TV's don't even get to half of that. Dolby Visions goes up to 10,000.

On a side note, a number of shows that Disney+ claims are in HDR, like the Mandalorian, actually aren't. They are simply SDR sent as HDR.
 
#2,060 ·
Google Sabrina possibly launching September 30 with a $59 price tag: Google 'Sabrina' Android TV dongle price could be under $50 - 9to5Google

That's from internal inventory systems at Target and Walmart; Home Depot had it in their system for $50.

If this is true, the TS4K is officially dead on October 1. It's not worth saving $10 for buggy firmware and a garbage remote.
 
#2,064 ·
FWIW... the Tivo Stream 4k and Youtube TV is buttery smooth. I'm not talking about the integration because it's still only Sling TV. I'm just talking about using the Youtube TV app on the Tivo stick. There is a little lag using youtube tv on my fire stick, but on the Tivo stick, the navigating, scrolling, selecting, etc., everything is instant. I'm testing out living without tivo and traditional cable tv, and my main concern was the channel surfing and navigation. It is actually even smoother than navigating my Tivo Roamio. But in general, navigating the Tivo stick is so much better than navigating the fire stick which constantly gets stuck or lag. Like you'd be pushing the directional pad down 3 times, and you see no reaction, then all of a sudden it reacts and moves you down 3 times when you no longer want to move. LOL! Bring on Google Sabrina, I will try them all!
 
#2,065 ·
How do you know for certain the Sabrina won't have "buggy firmware and a garbage remote", or other issues?
I don't, of course. But I'm guessing - and it's really just a guess here - that the folks who made Android TV might know a little more about what they're doing than, say, a dying company making a last-ditch effort to stay relevant by purchasing off-the-shelf hardware and using summer interns (apparently) to write the firmware.

I could be wrong. Google is a far cry from perfect. But they're also in a totally different league than TiVo. They're going up against the likes of Amazon and Roku. If the latest TiVo survey is any indication, most folks have forgotten TiVo is even a company anymore. And the ones who knew the name thought they only made expensive and irrelevant DVRs.
 
#2,074 ·
I am new to the cord cutting world and bought both an Apple TV and a TS4K to decide which experience would be best for me and I definitely prefer the TS4K.

The TiVo remote is a significantly better experience than the Apple remote, navigating to and through the channel guide is a better experience and selecting what to record is better integrated.

I will likely return the Apple TV and buy two more TS4Ks
 
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#2,075 ·
Welcome to the world of streaming. I'd wait if I could before buying another streaming device. Refer to the link in post # 2060 (scroll up). Next generation compatibility is rumored for the Sabrina since the developer edition from last year had HDMI 2.1 compatibility.

The Apple TV 4K is a good streamer but that remote has been excused for too long. There's just no excuse for not having the directional pad out of the box; taps are supposed to work as nav pad but consistency is iffy. Even if Apple wanted to keep the niche touchpad; they should have added a no fuss nav pad, for sanity sake. There's alternative remotes available for it though; I use Logitech Harmony hub and remote for nearly full function with a Harmony remote. One for All may be the cheapest alternative for those that also want to control volume with on their AVR. But since some apps are still only built on the Siri remote touchpad, I'm stuck with the Siri remote on Fubo TV if I want thumbnail previews for skipping ads.

But despite having 3 Apple TV 4K devices and Roku Ultra and Fire TV 4K Stick, I'm interested in seeing what the Google Sabrina has to offer. Hopefully it's got a sensible remote. I watched the TiVo 4K Stream with interest at release but decided to pass with the forced HDR not being fixed (yet) and knowing the Sabrina was rumored to be arriving at some point. The TiVo streamer had a limited window to please the masses but I'm thinking with baked in OS features and added future proofing, the Sabrina is the better device of the two. For what it's worth, I'm hesitant to preorder but more in a position to say I'll wait until I'm wowed, then buy. Bugs. Bugs. Bugs. Dislike them so much.

Sent from my Pixel 4 XL using Tapatalk
 
#2,078 ·
The average consumer would have given up long ago. The most important thing about the above conversation is that the average consumer can't or won't follow the above conversation. They want to plug a device in and have it work. Fire TV and friends do that for the most part, no Geek Squad required.
 
#2,097 ·
Why do you keep posting wrong information about this forced HDR bug? The TS4K takes SDR content and maps it onto an HDR color space. It's this mapping in the TS4K that gives all the colors wrong values. When your display device gets this wrong data that's presented as HDR, it says, "ahh, some HDR, I'll pass it straight through boss", not knowing it came from an SDR source. You can indeed enable HDR tone mapping or mess with your color/brightness/contrast to mask the problem. But that's just lipstick on a pig. Please stop spreading misinformation.
This is not true. You need to learn about how rec709 can be and IS mapped into a BT2020 container, which is what is happening here.

I've said it before. UHD Blurays do this ALL THE TIME by mapping a DCI-P3 color space into the very same BT2020 container! This is NO different.

If it is mapped properly AND your display does what it's supposed to do by going into its HDR BT2020 mode, then it ALL will appear correct, period! I've been watching this way with no special hoop jumping at all.

Have you ever once done a calibration with CalMAN (or similar) where in the process it takes you through mapping ALL the color spaces within that BT2020 color gamut? Why pray tell do you think that is sir?

The only misinformation is coming from your side.
I give up
To be clear, I never said they shouldn't have given the consumer the choice to turn it off or select which mode they wanted. All I'm saying is, the mapping is correct for what it actually does. At that point it's up to your display to treat the signal the way it's supposed to.
Just to clear this up even further, here are posts from AVS Forum discussing this very thing. The "Kris" being referred to is "Kris Deering", ISF Calibrator extraordaire and expert in these matters. Perhaps if you don't believe me, you'll believe him and the actual facts?

Yes, but that means you need to switch a preset for HDR or SDR. Kris said he was able to set it up so you didn't have to but it wasn't affected by the botched HDR auto gamma. So not switching.
709 content fits nicely in 2020 colorspace and Lumagen or madVR can be setup to do that conversion. No switching then.
What it sounds like to me is that maybe the TS4K isn't sending out proper HDR metadata to kick some displays into their proper HDR modes so it displays correctly, or maybe the display just ignores it for whatever reason, idk?

I'm now using an HDFury for the LLDV mod, so that must be treating it properly with its EDID and I'm just not seeing what you're seeing, because it looks amazing here on my displays and projector.
 
#2,080 ·
I know the opinions here are mixed and also that earlier in this thread I asked if Roku was a better choice, but I like the idea of a more open system and I'm an Android user so I decided what the heck: I just ordered two TS4Ks and an HDHomeRun OTA tuner. It seems like the TS4K is getting better. Also, I've read posts here about ChannelsDVR (I think many from @Pokemon_Dad?), I've watched many videos about the TS4K and Android TV and that has me interested in the possibilities. I'm more interested in AndroidTV than I am in using the TiVo interface at this point. I figured I'd try out some options over the next 30 days and see if it works well enough for OTA viewing and recording. In any case, streaming apps (and more of them!) that actually launch will be a huge improvement! If all goes as I hope, my current TiVo hardware will be headed to eBay.
 
#2,081 ·
I like to stream HBO and Showtime because the episodes are available at East Coast time while I'm out on the West Coast.

PQ is better than Comcast Xfiniity HBO and Showtime channels, which are low bitrate 720p.

Also have Amazon Prime and Hulu but don't watch those as much.

But won't give up my Tivo for streaming because streaming doesn't have trick play modes like skipping commercials or even 30 second skips, which are very useful.
 
#2,083 ·
#2,085 ·
new updates from a reddit post:

Live TV from Pluto TV and Locast is now on Stream 4K, plus firmware fixes!

This morning, the TiVo team enabled Pluto TV Linear (live TV) and Locast as 2 more fully integrated content providers on the Stream 4K platform! You can now find all your favorite Pluto TV and Locast live channels in the Stream experience.

For those users who haven't downloaded the Pluto TV or Locast apps yet, you can install both from the Play Store to do this please follow the steps below and enable it in your TiVo Stream app:

  • Go to Android TV home -> Apps -> Get More Apps, search for and download Pluto TV
  • Within the TiVo Stream app, you can select Pluto TV from My Streaming Services by going to TiVo Stream -> Settings -> My Streaming Services and selecting Pluto TV and/or Locast
  • When first launching the Pluto TV or Locast app, you may be required to sign in or register, please log in as needed
We also rolled out an updated firmware to 10% of the population that includes all the fixes from last month as well as fixes for the HDHomeRun/Channels DVR issues and Developer options issues. EDIT: the build number for this new firmware is v4896 Looking forward to any feedback you all have.
 
#2,087 ·
Looks like Sling now has it's own version of the Recast, a quad tuner, 1TB OTA DVR add-on to their Sling TV service. Would be a nice addition to the TS4K I think, especially for former OTA Tivo users.
Sling TV Launches AirTV Anywhere DVR | Cord Cutters News
Any word on whether this AirTV device will integrate into the TiVo Stream 4K's SlingTV guide, or will it be like the old ones where the local OTA channels won't integrate and you have to use the actual SlingTV app instead?
 
#2,088 ·
I do dig the integration of locast with the Tivo Stream 4k guide, all for free (assuming you live in one of the markets compatible... I'm in the NYC area so I see it).

Not paying for sling, the Stream's "guide" was just useless (to me) tivo+ content. Now it kind of reminds me of my current tivo (in that the guide actually represents something I want to watch, in a grid format).

Quality is grainy as heck and the nag for the $5/month donation would not make this my primary way to receive locals. But in a pinch, its a nice additional option as a back up.
 
#2,091 · (Edited)
I know the opinions here are mixed and also that earlier in this thread I asked if Roku was a better choice, but I like the idea of a more open system and I'm an Android user so I decided what the heck: I just ordered two TS4Ks and an HDHomeRun OTA tuner.
The TS4Ks and HDHomeRun showed up yesterday. I spent a few hours last night and I really like this setup. There's a few warts here and there, but I think if I disable the TiVo app and remap some buttons, this is a really usable solution for me. Also tried out Channels DVR - really good and it works with my existing NAS! Still haven't tried out the HDHomeRun DVR software, but I'll give it a shot.

The warts:
  • unable to get the remote to control volume on my AVR (I think I saw instructions for a workaround)
  • No surround sound on my AVR for Netflix & Prime - what's the minimum I need: DD+? Darn, I might have to replace my 10-year-old receiver. ;-)
  • TiVo app would be awesome if it could integrate ChannelsDVR, and if I could choose what gets integrated into that app. As it is, not worth much to me.
  • Need to remap buttons so the TiVo button does something useful
 
#2,093 ·
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