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Documenting my Bolt Experiences...

10K views 141 replies 19 participants last post by  darklyte 
#1 · (Edited)
02/12/2018 - Original Post edited for semi-brevity and reorganization. (Click on any image to open high resolution version in a new tab/window.)
********************
This thread documents the modifications and upgrades I have made/will make to improve overall performance/capability and maximize the functional lifetime of my TiVO Bolt 500GB.

Thanks to ALL who came before and upon whose shoulders I am standing. :)

BoltPrime:
Tivo Bolt 500GB (white)
Date of Manufacture: 11 September 2017
Current Software: 21.7.2.RC12 (-USC-11-849)

THERMAL CONCERNS: In my opinion, the stock machine has serious thermal management issues.

ODT (as delivered): 73° C

This temperature reading shocked me. Isolating BoltPrime completely from external heat sources reduced the temp perhaps by a degree. Initially, I was not controlling for tuners in use, recording, transfers, et al.

Disassembled the unit to take some measurements and begin analysis of the thermal design. Left top covers off as a temporary measure to keep temps down. Here are initial cover-off temps:

Stable 1 Tuner in use Temp: 54° C
Stable 4 Tuner in use Temp: 55° C
Stable 4 Tuner in use and streaming NETFLIX: 55° C

Ordered some materials to improve stock chassis thermal performance:

Noiseblocker BlackSilentFan XS-2, 50mm x 50mm x 10mm fan
4-pin MOLEX TX4 Extension Cables, 5 each

It appears the stock 15mm fan's headroom is so restrictive that it seriously hampers the already quite limited airflow rate. BoltPrime's 2-pin power supply circuit appears to be acoustically "quiet", but I am still going power the fan from the 4-pin HDD header 12 vdc rail to maximize fan speed/flow. I considered hunting up higher flow fans, but have reconsidered for now.

The prime heat generators in the device are the processor and cable card, but the shielded devices (tuner, et al) near the coax jack generate some heat as well and/or conduct heat from the inadequately cooled CableCard. The chassis engineers' thermal design intent is clear; it was simply, I suspect, compromised by higher priorities (production cost, size, et al). Ultimately, I do not think that I can adequately address the thermal management shortcomings without adding additional airflow. Such is not happening without additional ventilation and/or fan(s).

Consequently, I have purchased 2 additional "dead" Bolts to use for backup (BoltBack) and spare parts (BoltDonor). I can/will hack on the additional cases, keeping the original chassis unmodified.

====================

02/04/2017 - Thermal Management Update:

On a lark, I moved the fan from its place and simply set it on top of the heatsink, blowing down. Here are the results:

1 Tuner: 40° C
4 Tuners + Netflix: 41° C

An additional 14° C reduction vs. case removed, w/ no forced air.
A full 32° C (44%+) reduction over the "as delivered" configuration by a) blowing a little air over heatsink, and b) providing a larger delta temp between heatsink and surrounding air.



02/12/2018 - Here are the temperatures gathered for BoltPrime to date:

At Idle, OE Fan (CC): 73 ° C
At Idle, Noiseblocker BlackSilentFan XS-2 (CC): 64° C
At Idle, Noiseblocker BlackSilentFan XS-2, LS elevated (CC): 61° C
At Idle, Noiseblocker BlackSilentFan XS-2, LSFI elevated (CC): 59° C
At Idle, Noiseblocker BlackSilentFan XS-2, Vertical (CC): 54° C
Sustained transfer, Noiseblocker BlackSilentFan XS-2 (CC): 67° C
Sustained transfer, Noiseblocker BlackSilentFan XS-2, LS elevated (CC): 62° C
Sustained transfer, Noiseblocker BlackSilentFan XS-2, LSFI elevated (CC): 60° C
Sustained transfer, Noiseblocker BlackSilentFan XS-2, Vertical (CC): 56° C

TODO: control for CableCard cover removed vs installed.
  • CC = with CableCard; NCC = No CableCard
  • LS elevated = Left side of chassis elevated until internal fan is parallel to ground. Idea is that this will assist in breaking the air circulation short circuit and allow a little more efficient internal convection.
  • LSFI = LS as above with addition of fan exhaust isolator. (aka: . See images/dimensions.
  • "Sustained transfer" = Recordings being written TO the device under test (DUT) from another device.
Note: All temperatures after "At Idle, OE Fan" are with 3TB Toshiba drive w/possible additional heat.

The following images illustrate "Left Side elevated" (LS), fan isolator prototype, and "Left Side elevated with Fan Isolator (LSFI), and Vertical.




====================

Voltage Probing: Here are the voltage readings from selected locations. The red numbers in the following image correlate with the measurements below.

Vacant 4-pin header adjacent to the SATA header:
Pin 1:
3.55 vdc
Pin 2: 0.00 vdc
Pin 3: 4.76 vdc
Pin 4: 5.09 vdc

Fan Header:
Pin 1:
12.21 vdc
Pin 2: 0.00 vdc

HDD Power Header:
Pin 1:
0.00 vdc
Pin 2: 5.10 vdc
Pin 3: 0.00 vdc
Pin 4: 12.21 vdc

All voltages appeared rock steady on the VOM. I do not have a frequency counter or scope capable to look for switching activity on the 2-pin header power supply circuit.



====================

Wireless Network Adapter/Antennas: BoltPrime is physically connected to the network with wired Ethernet, so I decided to function test the system without the WiFi adapter installed.

02/04/2018 - Removed the Wireless Network Adapter and set it on top of the HDD to test. Rebooted the Bolt and cannot find any indication that it knows the adapter is missing. The card, antennas, and routing clips could be removed form the chassis. Set a static IP address.

02/06/2018 - Unintended consequences... Bluetooth functions are integrated on the WiFi adapter. Remove it and you lose RF remote capabilities to include VOX. Ultimately, I plan to put BoltPrime in a closet, thus I need to maintain the RF functions.

02/10/2018 - Considering purchasing a Roamio VOX remote with Bluetooth dongle. Should work, and if it does, I can remove the WiFi adapter. I've become concerned that the BoltPrime's WiFi adapter, even not being used, is interfering with my router's WiFi some 12 inches away and may be vulnerable to attack since I have no way to monitor or control it.

====================

I will continue to post back to this thread with updates as I proceed.

Love this stuff...
 
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6
#55 · (Edited)
NOT A Variable Speed Fan in MY TiVo Bolt!?!?

====================

Added 02/11/2018
- Answer? Still don't know, for sure. Yes, I ran the test below, but I MISSED the much higher speed during cold boot-up. The fan CLEARLY runs at a higher speed when the machine is first plugged in. I am awaiting arrival of some pre-made cables from China for another purpose. I will use some of the spares to make an inline tap for the 2-pin header.

This will make it easier to run a boot-up test while monitoring the fan voltage. This voltage measurement and logic should better answer the fan speed control method question.

Then, I will run ANOTHER in operation test where I monitor the voltage and fan speed while I artificially raise it to temps higher than 82° C (as high as I can stand it, or until the high speed switch kicks in.... whichever comes first.)

=====================

Alrighty then..... I have verified that the OEM fan in MY particular TiVo Bolt is almost positively NOT a variable speed fan. 02/11/2018 - NOT SO FAST! Read above!!!

Here is how I tested:

1) At "rest" or 39-40° C, I observed and measured the fan:
a) listened to and measured it with my SPL meter.
b) measured the voltage on the header WITH the fan connected

2) Using a heat gun and the System Information Screen, I slowly heated the processor heatsink and motherboard overall until the ODT was 82° C.
a) listened to and measured it with my SPL meter.
b) measured the voltage on the header WITH the fan connected

Could not discern either by ear or using the SPL meter any discernible difference in fan noise level.
The voltage on the header was a rock steady 12.21 (+/- 0.03vdc) during the entire run.

Constant voltage and no increase in noise level indicates no speed change.

3) Removed VOM and heat source and monitored the visual and audible speed indications while the processor ODT returned to 39° C.
No visual or audible indications of a fan speed reduction during the 43° C temp reduction.

I find it highly unlikely that the first/only setpoint for fan speed increase is ABOVE 82° C.

Comments?
 
#56 ·
NOT A Variable Speed Fan in MY TiVo Bolt!?!?

Alrighty then..... I have verified that the OEM fan in MY particular TiVo Bolt is almost positively NOT a variable speed fan.

Here is how I tested:

1) At "rest" or 39-40 degrees C, I observed and measured the fan:
a) listened to and measured it with my SPL meter.
b) measured the voltage on the header WITH the fan connected

2) Using a heat gun and the System Information Screen, I slowly heated the processor heatsink and motherboard overall until the ODT was 82 degree C.
a) listened to and measured it with my SPL meter.
b) measured the voltage on the header WITH the fan connected

Could not discern either by ear or using the SPL meter any discernible difference in fan noise level.
The voltage on the header was a rock steady 12.21 (+/- 0.03vdc) during the entire run.

Constant voltage and no increase in noise level indicates no speed change.

3) Removed VOM and heat source and monitored the visual and audible speed indications while the processor ODT returned to 39 degrees C.
No visual or audible indications of a fan speed reduction during the 43 degree C temp reduction.

I find it highly unlikely that the first/only setpoint for fan speed increase is ABOVE 82 degrees C.

Comments?
I've never heard any change in my fan speed after it slows down during the boot process. But I've also never seen a temp above 71 on the Sys info screen.

Sent from my Galaxy S8 using Tapatalk
 
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#61 · (Edited)
And the "AS IS" STORE RETURN ITEM. UNTESTED. No return at all." Bolt I bought off eBay is up and running.

I'm sure it was a store return because it was experiencing the dreaded "No Providers for your Zip Code.... Please try a different Zip Code" loop. Here are my details one of the two main threads on this issue:

No providers / channels in given zip code, first-time Guided Setup

FINALLY got it working and activation in progress. So, I can swap the cases out tomorrow and get busy. I'm inclined to put my 4TB Seagate in the backup machine FIRST, so I can copy over the recordings and 1Ps from the OEM 500GB drive. That way I'll only have to do a few updates when it's time to pul the OEM drive and put it up for storage. As I understand it, should I ever need to put the 500GB drive back in after swapping it out, it will get wiped on return to the machine.

Time for sleep! :)
 
#62 ·
OK.... Backup Box activated "Monthly, with a 1 year commitment".

TiVo said previous owner only had it activated for 3 days, so the 1 yr remains.
I explained that it was essentially a dead box that would have ended up in the garbage had I not brought it back to life from the "No Providers" problem.
They agreed. But they said the system won't allow a code change to "Monthly, WITHOUT commitment". BUT the CSR Supervisor agreed to put a case# and notes on my account to WAIVE ANY FEES associated with changes in service plans to include cancellation before the initial year elapses.

Yea! <just in case I need this box for longer than 30 days>
 
#63 ·
TRANSFERRING RECORDINGS:

OK, used TiVo Online to successfully copy my OnePasses from the Primary (Hydra) Bolt machine to the Backup (20.7.4.RC18) Bolt machine.

But I cannot get any recordings to transfer.... And yes, I set the preferences for both boxes to allow "Video Sharing" (and video downloads for good measure). Reconnected to TiVo service on BOTH machines.

Questions:

1) Do the machines HAVE to have the SAME software version in order to transfer recordings from Bolt to Bolt? If so, can it be Hydra OR 20.7.4.RC18, or does it have to be the old software on both? Or the NEW Hydra on both?

2) Do the machines have to be cold rebooted after the Preferences setting change and TiVo Service reconnection?

3) Any other ideas why I can't transfer my recordings from Bolt to Bolt using TiVo Online?


I just need this to work! And I want it settled before we acquire too many more recordings!
 
#64 · (Edited)
3) Any other ideas why I can't transfer my recordings from Bolt to Bolt using TiVo Online?
I just need this to work! And I want it settled before we acquire too many more recordings!
In SI, the TiVo To Go: should be a,a,a,a.

Since you could transfer the 1P, are the recordings allowed to be transferred? Some cable feeds copy protect non-premium content. Does TiVo Online show both guides and My Shows? No, software is not at fault. I transferred 320GB from my classic UI to my Hydra box and back.

What happens when you try to transfer? Just saying "it doesn't work" is not much to go on.

I keep forgetting this is new for you. Did you hit transfer twice? That box that pops up should just be labeled "Click Transfer to Start". ;)
 
#78 · (Edited)
Backup Bolt Hard Disk Drive Replacement

OK, with the backup Bolt (BoltBack) up and running, I moved on to replacing the disk drive to increase the storage capacity and frankly just for the practice using the tools and procedures.

Pretty uneventful really...

1) Removed 500GB drive with antenna wire clips left in place.
2) Removed SATA/PWR connector from OEM drive and put it in place on the Seagate 4TB drive. (no mount bracket yet)
3) Plugged HDD pwr and data cables in and set disk drive in place next to motherboard.
4) Booted BoltBack up to "Country Screen".
5) Pulled power plug from back of unit.
6) Attached 4TB drive to laptop using USB connector and wire mentioned in Post #75 above.
7) Ran mfsr.exe with right-click, "Run as Administrator", and reformatted the drive.
8) USB ejected and disconnected drive when it was finished.
9) Installed Noiseblocker BlackSilentFan XS-2 in place of OEM fan, connected temporarily to OEM 2-pin header.
10) Mounted drive in bracket, put SATA interface back on it, installed and re-assembled BolBack fully, sans screws. (Left those out to aid disassembly later until all finished).

Booted machine up, completed Guided Setup, and machine is working perfectly with 640 HD hour capacity advertised.

Fan on OE 2-pin power header has dropped idle temperature of the box from 54° C to 49° C fully assembled. Will post back once the materials arrive to build the inline tap to power the fan from the HDD 4-pin header's 12vdc rail.

NOTE: I "prepared" the drive using the "B" option of the DISKPART procedure in Post #75 above prior to first installation. Not required, but I've decided this will be part of my standard procedure prior to placing ANY drive into TiVo service to remove drive condition from troubleshooting consideration if a problem arises. Alternatively, I may begin using WD's DLD if it works successfully in my testing.

Posting this at the top of the thread in one of the "reserved" posts.
 
#79 ·
WiFi Adapter Related:

Considering trying out one of the Roamio version VOX remotes that come with the Bluetooth dongle. If it works, I can remove the wireless card and antennas, and still have VOX capability. I'm becoming concerned that the Bolt's WiFi adapter, even not being used is interfering with my Router's WiFi some 12 inches away and may be vulnerable to attack since I have no way to monitor or control it.
 
#81 ·
I have the same concerns as you with cooling on the BOLT however I am even more concerned with the hard drive health than SoC ODT. I think it's getting very hot in that case and that may be what lead to the first hard drive failure. I really want an internal hard drive just to keep everything neat and together. I'm probably going to cut a hole and mount a second 120mm fan right above the heat sink to push a lot more air through. I'll probably make some holes on each side of the case too to allow the air to flow through more freely.

We'll see, I'm in the early stages of planning. Right now the case cover stays off until I come up with something.

If you wind up with extra case parts let me know because I'd be interested in buying them.

Kind regards,
craigr
 
#85 ·
Yes, it should.

IMO, the curved case was MORE to make it the top device in a stack of devices in situations where it doesn't have its own perch/shelf, than it was to provide airflow under the case. Taller bumps on a standard box-type chassis would have insured clearance for airflow. In fact, the weird under-chassis space encourages an air-flow short circuit where hot air exiting the fan grill is piped back into the case via the (insufficient open area) intake vents. The ABS case has insufficient material or rigidity to have supported any appreciable weight had it been molded in standard dimensions.

Additionally, in their zeal to make it tiny (and save materials), the internal volume is woefully insufficient for thermal flow, proper sized heatsink, et al.

After analyzing it just a bit more, I believe I could write up a prioritized bullet list of engineering factors. Near the top would be "Minimize cost of production." Somewhere, some ways down the list would be "Thermal design minimally sufficient for x% of total sold to NOT fail due to high heat until the warranty expires." I'm guessing durability, customer convenience, flexibility, and many more cool things weren't even on the list. ;)
 
#86 · (Edited)
BoltBack Thermal Management:

02/10/2018 - Fan on OE 2-pin power header has dropped idle temperature of the box from 54° C to 49° C fully assembled. Will post back once the materials arrive to build the inline tap for the 4-pin, HDD power header.

02/11/2018 - This will be updated in a piecemeal fashion as I accomplish other tasks.

At Idle, OE Fan (NCC): 54° C
At Idle, OE Fan (CC): 60° C
At Idle, OE Fan, LS elevated (CC): 59° C
At Idle, Noiseblocker BlackSilentFan XS-2 (NCC): 49° C
At Idle, Noiseblocker BlackSilentFan XS-2 (CC): 61° C
At Idle, Noiseblocker BlackSilentFan XS-2, LS elevated (CC): 56° C
Sustained transfer, OE Fan (NCC): 58° C
Sustained transfer, OE Fan (CC): 64° C
Sustained transfer, OE Fan, LS elevated (CC): 64° C
Sustained transfer, Noiseblocker BlackSilentFan XS-2 (NCC): 59° C

* CC = with CableCard; NCC = No CableCard
* LS elevated = Left side of chassis elevated until internal fan is parallel to ground. Idea is that this will assist in breaking the air circulation short circuit and allow a little more efficient internal convection.

====================

Variable Fan Speed on 2-pin Header..... redux.

Added 02/11/2018 - Answer? Still don't know, for sure. Yes, I ran the test below, but I MISSED the much higher speed during cold boot-up. The fan CLEARLY runs at a higher speed when the machine is first plugged in. I am awaiting arrival of some pre-made cables from China for another purpose. I will use some of the spares to make an inline tap for the 2-pin header.

This will make it easier to run a boot-up test while monitoring the fan voltage. This voltage measurement and logic should better answer the fan speed control method question.

Then, I will run ANOTHER in operation test where I monitor the voltage and fan speed while I artificially raise it to temps higher than 82° C (as high as I can stand it, or until the high speed switch kicks in.... whichever comes first.)
 
#107 ·
At Idle, Noiseblocker BlackSilentFan XS-2 (NCC): 49° C
At Idle, Noiseblocker BlackSilentFan XS-2 (CC): 61° C
At Idle, Noiseblocker BlackSilentFan XS-2, LS elevated (CC): 56° C
I'd love to see a picture of how you dealt with the extra cable on the XS-2 fan. I ended up positioning it on top of the drive but had to lose the 2 plastic clips routing the WiFi cable to the fan (well the hard drive thickness also played a part there) and still had some issues getting that section of the end case not to bulge.

Scott
 
#87 ·
Hey clay,

Have you taken the heat sink off any of your BOLT's yet? If so, was it a thermal pad or thermal past you found? If you haven't yet I would like it if you'd take the heat sink off your junk BOLT because I really want to know. If it's a pad I'm probaly not going to change anything, but if it's past I will definitely level the heat sink and replace the paste.

I just took the heat sink off my junk Roamio and was rather surprised to find paste. However, the Roamio also has a metal inner case that doubles as a second heat sink with a heat transfer pad attached to the PCB directly under the Broadcom. So it's cooled from above and below.

I'd like to know your findings.

craigr
 
#88 · (Edited)
Hey clay,

Have you taken the heat sink off any of your BOLT's yet? If so, was it a thermal pad or thermal past you found? If you haven't yet I would like it if you'd take the heat sink off your junk BOLT because I really want to know. If it's a pad I'm probaly not going to change anything, but if it's past I will definitely level the heat sink and replace the paste.

I just took the heat sink off my junk Roamio and was rather surprised to find paste. However, the Roamio also has a metal inner case that doubles as a second heat sink with a heat transfer pad attached to the PCB directly under the Broadcom. So it's cooled from above and below.

I'd like to know your findings.
Nope, haven't taken it off yet, but from what I can tell with my mag glasses and a really bright light, it is some kind of phase change pad like these from Bergquist:

Phase Change Pads

They can be machine applied, and they are temperature activated, actually flowing at a set temp... The idea is that you thermal cycle the process/pad/sink sandwich at the right temp, typically ABOVE the normal op temp. Keep it there for a certain time, the pad flows and bonds the sink to the processor (thermally, not really mechanically). The springs in the pin fasteners put a minimal clamping pressure on the bond. Then you operate it below the flow temp and there ya go.

I don't have a "junk" Bolt yet. I have BoltBack running as a backup with a 4TB drive in it and am also using it for testing purposes.... That's where all those temps in Post #86/#2 came from.

I AM going to remove the heatsinks though. I just dropped an order for custom hardware for mounting the heatsinks with higher spring tension, and another setup that will be semi-rigid. I won't be replacing the pad with another pad, even the top-shelf Bergquist stuff I have here UNLESS the processor top is not true or has some massive run-out. I will be using Arctic Silver in the thinnest layer possible after I lap the heatsink mounting pedestal flat and smooth. Hence the custom hardware. Those spring-loaded nylon push pins are not intended to be removed and replaced.... you can get away with it maybe 6-12 times if you are careful... maybe more.

If you remove your heatsink and it is a pad, and you want to continue with a pad, it will need to be replaced. And if you do that, it'd be better to just go with AS5 or similar.

Yep, I've never seen a Roamio up close, but from your description, it is clear that it was much better built at least from a thermal design perspective.

I will keep you updated! :)
 
#89 ·
BoltPrime Hard Disk Drive Replacement

02/11/2018 - Installed the 3TB Toshiba drive in BoltPrime today using essentially the same procedure used on BoltBack on Saturday.

The only issue that arose was that the CableCard issues returned. Same 8 channels as the first time. Spent an hour on phone with Suddenlink. Verified that we agree on the Cable Card numbers. They sent the re-pair signal several times with various combinations of TiVo reconnects, cold reboots, et al. No joy. They are rolling a truck for the 3rd time... supposedly with a replacement CableCard.

Hardware Order Submitted

Researched and submitted an order today for a complete complement of Bolt fasteners to include the plastic and metal self-tappers, the machine screws for the WiFi card retention, and the machine screws for the CableCard bracket/slot.

Additionally, I calculated the specifications and submitted an order for heatsink mounting hardware in anticipation of replacing the assumed phase change pad with proper silver-based thermal interface compound.
 
#90 · (Edited)
BoltPrime Thermal Observations: Had a truck roll from Suddenlink again. The CableCard mysteriously lost the same 8 channels it had a problem with originally. So, I decided to put the case tops on and make some thermal observations with the replacement fan installed.

DATA - Here are the temperatures gathered for BoltPrime to date:

At Idle, OE Fan (CC): 73 ° C
At Idle, Noiseblocker BlackSilentFan XS-2 (CC): 64° C
At Idle, Noiseblocker BlackSilentFan XS-2, LS elevated (CC): 61° C
At Idle, Noiseblocker BlackSilentFan XS-2, LSFI elevated (CC): 59° C
At Idle, Noiseblocker BlackSilentFan XS-2, Vertical (CC): 54° C
Sustained transfer, Noiseblocker BlackSilentFan XS-2 (CC): 67° C
Sustained transfer, Noiseblocker BlackSilentFan XS-2, LS elevated (CC): 62° C
Sustained transfer, Noiseblocker BlackSilentFan XS-2, LSFI elevated (CC): 60° C
Sustained transfer, Noiseblocker BlackSilentFan XS-2, Vertical (CC): 56° C
  • CC = with CableCard; NCC = No CableCard
  • LS elevated = Left side of chassis elevated until internal fan is parallel to ground. Idea is that this will assist in breaking the air circulation short circuit and allow a little more efficient internal convection.
  • LSFI = LS as above with addition of fan exhaust isolator. (aka: . See images/dimensions.
  • "Sustained transfer" = Recordings being written TO the device under test (DUT) from another device.
Note: All temperatures after "At Idle, OE Fan" are with 3TB Toshiba drive in place of the stock WD 500GB drive.

The following images illustrate "Left Side elevated" (LS), fan isolator prototype, and "Left Side elevated with Fan Isolator (LSFI), and Vertical.




ASSERTIONS/ASSUMPTIONS - As expected, the data here, combined with the BoltBack temperature observations, support the following:

a) The chassis "legs" are too short. On the right end of the case, half the vents leading to the case interior and CableCard bay are heavily obstructed. All of the limited inlet venting could benefit from being elevated to some degree.

b) The stock 15mm tall fan combined with the short interior height combines to reduce the headroom over the fan to such a point as to drastically reduce it ability to exhaust hot air from the chassis. The increased headroom over the 10mm tall fan clearly improves the exhaust flow.

c) An air-flow short circuit exists under the chassis. The curve under-chassis space inhibits rather than assists airflow. Air exhausting from the fan appears to be constrained under the chassis and actually feeds back into the intake vents.

d) Elevating the left side until the internal fan is parallel to the ground reduces observed ODT. This reduction is most likely due to a partial correction of the airflow short-circuit combined with improved interior conductive airflow. Increasing angles appear to further improve the disconnection between exhaust and intake (see e below) and encourage further increases in convective airflow interior to the case. Placing the chassis vertical resulted in an additional 5° C ODT temperature reduction, the lowest idle and loaded temps for any position thus far. NOTE: Simply elevating the left side helps, but insuring the right end inlets have a clear "view" of the exterior air supply also helps. (See right end in images below)

e) Further remedies for the airflow short-circuit lower the ODT temperature. In horizontally oriented positions, adding a barrier that walls off the higher temperature exhaust from the inlet vents that also serves as the elevating method assisted in reducing the ODT. Not a bunch, but it serves to prove that keeping the inlet air supply as cool as possible is important.

f) The configuration above is probably 90%+ of the maximum performance that can be achieved in stock trim.

Bottom Line: To achieve idle temps much lower than 59° C, we must a) get more heat out of the chassis, put more cool air into the chassis, increase airflow over the heat generators, especially the processor heatsink.

Potential TODO List:

1) Build a second fan isolation/elevation prototype.
2) Add ducted/forced air inlet to the prototype in #1
3) Test #2 with internal fan removed
4) Modify prototype to add a bigger fan to "vacuum" air OUT of the exhaust section.
5) Other stuff as it occurs to me... Some things will be tested on BoltBack for proof of concept prior to use on BoltPrime.

I'm hungry! :D
 
#99 · (Edited)
I thought VERY same exact thing when I saw the initial ODT measurement of 73° C. Here's what I said in Post #1 of this thread:

POST #1: "This temperature reading shocked me. Isolating BoltPrime completely from external heat sources reduced the temp perhaps by a degree..."

I temporarily set the machine up in a completely different place with no heat producers anywhere close. It MIGHT have made a one degree difference. So I moved it back out of convenience. ALL temperature readings in this thread are from that position atop my Samsumg Blu-Ray Player, which sits between BoltPrime and the Onkyo A/V Receiver. Apparently, it isn't having as much impact as one might expect, the ambient airflow is sufficient to reduce its impact to </= 1° C. OR, maybe the BlueRay Player (OFF 90%+) with its aluminum chassis is deflecting/absorbing most of the heat coming up from the AVR. Note that in the pictures the AVR vents beneath BoltPrime's right side vents are covered with CD/DVD sleeves to deflect the AVR exhaust. Additionally, the temps recorded in this thread are based on revised positions that keep BoltPrime wholly on top of the Blu-Ray Player.

While the AVR IS certainly a consideration, it is not at the top of the list.... yet. At some point, I will likely add a boxed riser between the AVR and components above with the "bottom panel" lifted on the diagonal as a baffle to direct the exhaust air to the rear away from other components.

Good thinking though!!! :)
 
#100 ·
I still have a 15mm, 4TB drive running in my Bolt. It has been running since October 2015. Although I did have another 4TB drive die last fall. But the drives did go through multiple Bolts. But since I got lifetime Bolts last year, I don't plan on getting any more. My previous two Bolts were on yearly. And the first two were from the eBay scam. Which I still have sitting in a closet for spare parts.
 
#101 ·
Thanks.... have you ever had the drives oriented on their sides or vertically for a sustained period?

I wasn't around for the "eBay Scam".... hot/stolen devices?

BoltPrime is an "All In"/Lifetime Bolt. BoltBack is a monthly, so far. I can't decide if I will keep BoltBack for a year or not.
I've upgraded BOTH with 3TB Toshiba and 4TB WD drives respectively, and have the original drives stored away should they be needed.

BoltBack and BoltDonor were purchased on eBay as "Parts Only" machines, both from July 2016 manufacture. They were returned to the store because they got caught in the database switchover and say they can't find Cable Providers for ANY zip code. I got one fixed. I will get the other fixed too.... eventually. I will likely resell one or both at some point. I was going to hack the case on one of the extras, but may not now that I have decided to simply go for a new or off-the-shelf chassis design to house BoltPrime and the 8TB WD Red drive.
 
#112 ·
I put a zip tie on the extra slack on my XS-2 fan. There was some open space that I tucked it into.

Also the newer enclosures have a channel, under the hard drive, to route the wifi cable. My original Bolts did not have this channel. But the ones I got from the lifetime transfer did. So there was no need to use the plastic clips since I could route the wire through the channel.
I had tried a zip tie (I think based on your post) but it added to the bulk. Can't recall if I kept it or not now.

I need to pull the drive and run wdidle3 on it now that I know it works on the Blue 2TB drive so I'll check for the channel (mine was part of the lifetime transfer deal as well). I wasn't too concerned about not having the clips since the cable naturally stays roughly in place.

Scott
 
#115 ·
What BLUE drive do you have? If it was made in 2016 wdidle3 may or may not work. If it was made 2017 or newer it most likely will not work. Western Digital took away the ability for wdidle3 to change parking on their 3.5" drives around mid 2016. However, I am not positive they did this on their 2.5" drives as well.

WD did this a few months after they dropped their GREEN branding and made the BLUE drives into GREEN's. The new BLUE drives are identical in every way to the old GREEN drives including factory firmware and their settings. The only thing different is that they made it so we couldn't change the parking time anymore. Really there is no physical difference between RED, GREEN, or BLUE, just the firmware's are set differently. The GREEN's have been dropped, the BLUE's are now GREEN's with parking permanently set at 8 seconds, and the RED's are the same drive with parking set to 5 minutes and TLER enabled.

I had an argument with WD on their forum about this and they deny it, but I am positive the only reason they stopped wdidle3 from working anymore is because RED / GREEN / BLUE are all exactly the same hardware, and WD just doesn't want people to be able to buy BLUE / GREEN drives to run in a NAS or other application that needs higher head parking times. The BLUE / GREEN cost half as much and disabling parking basically made them into RED's. I hate corporate marketing and greed like this. I see no reason why a person shouldn't be able to buy a BLUE drive and then do what they want with it. WD says it was designed specifically for it's application... blablabla...

Who knows, I haven't worked with enough 2.5" BLUE drives to know, but maybe wdidle3 still works on all 2.5" drives. WD claims it has not worked on any drive for more than 10 years, but I had been using it on all their drives until they disabled it mid 2016. They say I am wrong, but I have litterally changed parking times on hundreds of drives pre-2017.

craigr
 
#113 ·
1) Fan is oriented with wire to frame entrance to the front immediately adjacent to the HDD connectors.
2) Make sure the cable has no twists in it at all, just a smooth loop. Plug in.
3) Hold the loop down flat over the HDD while you put the large top on. Try to allow the motherboard side of the loop to proceed to the front of the motherboard, going around the two alignment tabs on the top and then back out over the HDD.
4) Now just carefully feed the cable back into the case from the front part of the loop and tuck it as best you can.
5) Put second top on being sure it doesn't foul a clip.
Basically, keep it out of the way and stuff it on after big top is on and hope you don't further restrict the flow too much. :(
Thanks, I'll compare this when I take it apart to do the wdidle3. I seem to recall that my fan cable is not oriented on the front toward the HDD connectors (I thought there was some interference that way versus out the right side).

Scott
 
#120 ·
DATA - Here are the temperatures gathered for BoltPrime to date:

At Idle, OE Fan (CC): 73 ° C
At Idle, Noiseblocker BlackSilentFan XS-2 (CC): 64° C
At Idle, Noiseblocker BlackSilentFan XS-2, LS elevated (CC): 61° C
I have had my Bolt, Speedy, sitting on a single fan variable speed laptop cooler at min speed for the last 14 months (Lepa Lepad V17 - discontinued). I also have the noiseblocker fan installed. Keeps ODT in the low to mid 50's and the skin temperature of the case is ever so slightly warmish to the hand.
 
#121 ·
And what was your Idle, OE Fan, not cooler temp?
Idle, Noiseblocker Fan, temp?

Without knowing where you started, it's hard to appreciate where you got to. :)

I'm looking at getting my ODT well into the low 40s from the stock 73 C. Putting a laptop cooler under BoltPrime isn't going to get there, nor will it address the drive temp, and the 8TB 3.5" drive will not fit in the stock chassis. I'm going to need a new chassis.

Glad it's working for you though! :)
 
#123 ·
Also a tip for if you have to remove and replace the case on a BOLT multiple times...

Don't screw the case down and just put the one hard drive mount screw in place that does not hold the case down. That way you don't have to remove the cover over the hard drive with the clips from the case (it just comes off with the case). IOW the case comes off without removing any screws or removing the cover over the hard drive ;-)

craigr
 
#124 ·
Just a stray thought... I wish TiVo made a higher end BOLT with a real NICE case. I would pay more for it. While I’m wishing, I would like it to do OTA and cable at the same time, or at least have the option for either. The last nicely finished box that met my criteria was the two tuner Premiere which I own, but two tuners isn’t enough for a single DVR anymore.... sigh.

craigr
 
#128 ·
And what was your Idle, OE Fan, not cooler temp?
Idle, Noiseblocker Fan, temp?

Without knowing where you started, it's hard to appreciate where you got to. :)

I'm looking at getting my ODT well into the low 40s from the stock 73 C. Putting a laptop cooler under BoltPrime isn't going to get there, nor will it address the drive temp, and the 8TB 3.5" drive will not fit in the stock chassis. I'm going to need a new chassis.

Glad it's working for you though! :)
My initial temps were very inline with what you have measured. Stock was 73C under load. The Noiseblocker brought that down 8-9C, and the laptop cooler brought it down another 9-10C.

Sitting the Bolt on a laptop cooler does address the drive temp as the case temperature of the Bolt is greatly reduced. I didn't put a thermocouple in the case, but my well calibrated palm would estimate a similar reduction in case temperature, which would directly translate to a lower drive temp.

I had an idea for vast improvement in cooling but never got around to implementing it. The basic idea is to remove the tiny fan in the bolt and duct the laptop cooler to the stock fan location. You could effectively route the airflow from a 12 cm fan through the case without cutting or modifying it.
 
#129 · (Edited)
My initial temps were very inline with what you have measured. Stock was 73C under load. The Noiseblocker brought that down 8-9C, and the laptop cooler brought it down another 9-10C.

Sitting the Bolt on a laptop cooler does address the drive temp as the case temperature of the Bolt is greatly reduced. I didn't put a thermocouple in the case, but my well calibrated palm would estimate a similar reduction in case temperature, which would directly translate to a lower drive temp.

I had an idea for vast improvement in cooling but never got around to implementing it. The basic idea is to remove the tiny fan in the bolt and duct the laptop cooler to the stock fan location. You could effectively route the airflow from a 12 cm fan through the case without cutting or modifying it.
Isn't that a bit excessive?
 
#132 ·
Going back to series 2, I have bought Tivos. watched shows and erased them; occasionally keeping something (breaking bad finale) (UCONNChampionships) . never opened a Box, never had an issue except for a Roamio original straight from Tivo. I appreciate if you have the skills and the motivation...rip open those boxes!! I just dont get it. I've never dug inside my receiver which is going on year 4. hasnt been turned off the whole while except for moving and power disruptions. No judging..enjoy yourselves. Is it worth all the time, money and effort?
 
#134 ·
#141 ·
Looks like there is an empty 4-pin header on the MB, did you power up the new 120MM Noctua fan directly from that?
CIR-Engineering did an additional custom mod for powering the fan and was curious how you addressed that.
No, I didn't use that vacant 4-pin header. I'm not sure what it is intended for, but when I checked it with my volt meter, I could not find a 12vdc supply pin...

Instead, I bought some some pre-made 4-pin Male to Female extension harnesses... The original idea was to hack two of them together into a Y-cable to power both the HDD and the 120mm Noctua fan from the HDD header on the TiVo motherboard. That header has +5 and +12 vdc and 2 grounds.... albeit non-standard pinout, so you have to meter them and make sure you make the connections correctly.

However, since I am using an external enclosure for my 8GB drive and it has its own power supply, I simply swapped the pins around on ONE extension harness and used it to plug the fan in without modifying either the TiVo or the fan harness. Works great.... Note: I inserted one of the supplied speed attenuators supplied by Noctua to reduce the RPM on the fan to reduce the noise. The fan is quieter and still gives me the temps mentioned above.

IF I go back and either put it in a Mini-ITX case or modify the donor case to iimprove airflow (reduce back-pressure), I may switch to the other attenuator (to raise the speed) or remove it altogether. I believe the noise I am hearing at full speed is echoing back out of the intake due to back-pressure on the fan. If the pressure is reduced, I think the noise will be reduced as well.
 
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