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Old 02-28-2015, 06:29 PM   #1
King3pj
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Welcome! Starting up... Loop

I think I may have destroyed my Roamio Basic. I tried to install a 2TB hard drive and I thought everything went smoothly. When I tried to boot it up it went into a loop. It says Welcome! Starting up... And after a few seconds the yellow light starts flashing and it reboots.

It just keeps doing this over and over again. I have tried to get into the kickstart menu but that doesn't work either. I also tried putting the original drive back in and this has the same problem.

I'm hoping someone can get me out of this mess. The replacement drive I purchased was the WD Green 2TB drive. Again, even the original drive won't boot. I think I've destroyed my TiVo.

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Old 03-01-2015, 09:27 AM   #2
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Hmmm. A few thoughts. Make sure all the cables are firmly seated. Both to the drive and the motherboard and that is connected to the network. The only other thing I can think of is if the power brick is not delivering enough power. Consider replacing that. If nothing works, then it may be bricked. I have seen some info from telemark that suggests some of the built in flash drives may develop bad spots.

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Old 03-01-2015, 10:22 AM   #3
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Hmmm. A few thoughts. Make sure all the cables are firmly seated. Both to the drive and the motherboard and that is connected to the network. The only other thing I can think of is if the power brick is not delivering enough power. Consider replacing that. If nothing works, then it may be bricked. I have seen some info from telemark that suggests some of the built in flash drives may develop bad spots.
I've checked all the cables multiple times. I've also swapped back and forth between the original drive and my upgraded drive a couple times. I am getting the same behavior no matter what I do.

I think I am just going to have to contact support and see if they can help me. I took one of their promotional offers for the free Tivo where you have to pay $20 per month for two years.

If not for that I would just cut my losses and buy a new Roamio with lifetime subscription like I wish I would have done in the first place. The problem is that even if I do that I'm stuck paying $20 per month for the next year and a half on this one.

I really regret trying to upgrade the hard drive at this point. I have probably built at least a dozen computers and upgraded hard drives on things like my PS3 and PS4. From everything I saw, it looked like a piece of cake and it actually was very easy. Only problem came when I tried to boot back up.

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Old 03-01-2015, 05:49 PM   #4
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Might see if telemark has some ideas. He focuses a lot on the hardware and he may be able to help resurrect it.

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Old 03-01-2015, 07:05 PM   #5
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Might see if telemark has some ideas. He focuses a lot on the hardware and he may be able to help resurrect it.
Thanks but support has already set up a replacement to be shipped out tomorrow. I don't have the tools or knowledge to solder anything so this seems like the safer option.

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Old 03-01-2015, 11:00 PM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by King3pj View Post
I think I may have destroyed my Roamio Basic. I tried to install a 2TB hard drive and I thought everything went smoothly. When I tried to boot it up it went into a loop. It says Welcome! Starting up... And after a few seconds the yellow light starts flashing and it reboots.

It just keeps doing this over and over again. I have tried to get into the kickstart menu but that doesn't work either. I also tried putting the original drive back in and this has the same problem.

I'm hoping someone can get me out of this mess. The replacement drive I purchased was the WD Green 2TB drive. Again, even the original drive won't boot. I think I've destroyed my TiVo.
If that's just a regular WD Green, and not a recently manufactured WD AV Green drive, then you probably need to disable the drive's Intellipark feature with the

wdidle3.exe

utility.

Otherwise, when the TiVo goes to talk to the drive, it's already gone to sleep, TiVo thinks there's a problem, reboots, by the time it tries to talk to the drive again the drive has woken up, noticed the lack of further communication (while the TiVo was rebooting) and gone back to sleep, lather, rinse, repeat.

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Old 03-02-2015, 10:05 AM   #7
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If that's just a regular WD Green, and not a recently manufactured WD AV Green drive, then you probably need to disable the drive's Intellipark feature with the

wdidle3.exe

utility.

Otherwise, when the TiVo goes to talk to the drive, it's already gone to sleep, TiVo thinks there's a problem, reboots, by the time it tries to talk to the drive again the drive has woken up, noticed the lack of further communication (while the TiVo was rebooting) and gone back to sleep, lather, rinse, repeat.
I originally thought that may be the problem too (or a defective drive) but when I put the drive that came installed in the Roamio back in I was having the same problem.

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Old 03-02-2015, 11:04 AM   #8
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Try a different power supply.

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Old 03-02-2015, 08:23 PM   #9
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I originally thought that may be the problem too (or a defective drive) but when I put the drive that came installed in the Roamio back in I was having the same problem.
It's not impossible that there are two different problems going on.

I don't really know anything about S5s, but the fact that it can format a new drive with the TiVo software all by itself makes me wonder if it tried to and, since the Intellipark'ed drive didn't respond, got itself stuck in the middle of the process and is now unable to deal with the original drive.

Disable Intellipark on the green drive and try it in the TiVo again.

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Old 03-03-2015, 12:39 PM   #10
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Thanks for the suggestions but they have already agreed to replace it under warranty. My replacement was shipped out Monday and it should arrive Thursday. I really don't want to tinker with the hardware anymore and make it obvious that I had opened the case. That's why suggestions like changing out the power supply are off the table for me.

If they would have chose not to send me a replacement I would have been willing to try any of these solutions. As it stands now, I think I'm better off leaving everything closed up with the original drive installed though.

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Old 03-03-2015, 01:02 PM   #11
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A Roamio basic power supply is external, and so does not need you to change an internal component. Anyhow, just want to make sure that fact was in the tread.

Your fresh box should clearly address the issue.

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Old 03-20-2015, 03:08 PM   #12
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Sorry to resurrect an existing thread, but what the heck.....

I'm incredibly frustrated with my Roamio Pro and just looking for ANY ideas out there. I'll try to be brief:
  • Had some pixelation in recent months
  • With the latest update about a week ago, it got stuck in a reboot loop with the restart
    (loop = "Welcome....Power up" for ~20-30sec and reboots)
  • Attempted many hard and soft reboots....they all failed
  • Attempted kickstarts 54 & 57...it acknowledged the codes but ignored them and continued with reboot cycle.
  • Put in a blank 1Tb HDD to see if it would "take." It did. It went through a bunch of reboots, but eventually restarted & acted like a new TiVo.
  • Because of the previous pixelation and now the reboots, I suspected the OEM HDD had issues, so I SpinRite'd it. Put it back in the Roamio and was able to get to a KS57 green screen and eventually a successful boot.
  • Since I was in a "hardware mode" already (happened to be upgrading a Premiere HDD), I decided to clone & replace the Roamio's OEM HDD with another WD 3TB Green. The 7hr cloning was successful.
  • Put the new drive in the Roamio last night. After a few "Welcome....Powering up" reboots, was able to run a KS57. Everything seemed intact, functional, successful service call, etc.
  • Thinking I was home free, I disconnected it this morning and moved it back into the home theatre stack (where another fully-functional Premiere XL had been doing fill-in duties.)
  • It now seems to be utterly stuck back in the reboot cycle. Been trying for two hours without success. Acknowledges KS codes, but doesn't run them. So the same issue I started with, but can't seem to get out of it at all.
  • In the other reboot loop instances, once I got an "Almost there" screen, I was on my way. Might still reboot and act weird, but that was the sign that it was closer. I could actually run KS57, and it would eventually get up and running. But now I'm getting nothing but "Welcome...powering up" reboots.
I'm so frustrated with this thing right now. It seems apparent to me (someone correct me if my reasoning's off) that this isn't an HDD issue after all.* Once up & running, it seems okay, but it seemingly struggles more & more any time it has to restart. Even if I get it running today, it's obviously not acceptable to face hours of downtime whenever the thing needs to restart. Of course, it's about a month out of warranty.....


If anybody has any ideas on what could cause this, I'm all ears.


* I ran WD's long test on the OEM HDD last night and it came up error-free.

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Old 03-20-2015, 04:45 PM   #13
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If there perchance was a small area of corruption in the original image, the clone will have it as well. Would recommend checking the drive with HDD Guardian to see if there are any errors that WD diagnostic might turn a blind eye to. Let the Roamio put a new image on the drive by wiping the drive first and see if your problems goes away.

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Old 03-20-2015, 06:09 PM   #14
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If there perchance was a small area of corruption in the original image, the clone will have it as well. Would recommend checking the drive with HDD Guardian to see if there are any errors that WD diagnostic might turn a blind eye to. Let the Roamio put a new image on the drive by wiping the drive first and see if your problems goes away.
Thanks for the response. At this point, it's almost as if it won't communicate with any HDD anymore. I've tried all three today....the OEM 3Tb, the cloned 3Tb, and the 1Tb "tester" that it successfully formatted a few days ago....and I get nothing but the same reboot loop. Even though I can feel the HDD spinning, I'm starting to wonder if either the power or SATA path to it are failing. That little combo cable makes it hard to test easily, but I may pull one from a Premiere and swap it, just for sh*ts & giggles.

I will find HDD Guardian and run it, as you suggest. Will also blank the tester and try that again....

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Old 03-20-2015, 06:15 PM   #15
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I have seen a bad SATA cable in the past. Replacing the cable and see what happens would be a good idea.

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Old 03-20-2015, 07:07 PM   #16
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I have seen a bad SATA cable in the past. Replacing the cable and see what happens would be a good idea.
Shoot....I thought the Premiere used that same SATA + power combo cable that the Roamio does. But I just opened one up and it's same as the Series 3....a combo connector, but the power is "hardwired" to the power supply board rather than pinned out to the M/B.

Considering that the Roamio powers its HDD from a M/B connector, and that other end is also the SATA connector, do you know of a way to separately test the SATA cable? Obviously, attaching a different SATA cable is easy, but not so sure how to power the HDD (without making a whole new power connector cable....)

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Old 03-20-2015, 08:41 PM   #17
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I temporarily powered a drive connected to a TiVo with a regular SATA cable by just running power from a PC.

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Old 03-20-2015, 09:39 PM   #18
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I temporarily powered a drive connected to a TiVo with a regular SATA cable by just running power from a PC.
Yeah, I thought of that....makes sense that it should work for the previous models where the HDD was powered directly from the power supply.

Unfortunately, it's a no-go with the Roamio. The flash OS must check for a load on that M/B power connector, because even in its currently dysfunctional state, the Roamio immediate detects that it's not powering the drive and starts flashing all the front indicator lights. It doesn't even proceed to the "Welcome...." stage.

I did, however, manage to make a separate power connector so that I could try an alternate SATA cable. Alas, no change in behavior. Unless there's something I can test that I haven't thought to yet, I'm stumped. I think my Roamio's got bigger problems.

I've never had to send a TiVo in for service before. Any idea how something like a failed M/B, etc. impacts Lifetime Service on the unit?

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Old 03-20-2015, 10:30 PM   #19
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Wow, that's unfortunate. There's a lot of variables going on now though.

Were there any errors reported during the cloning or from spinrite?
How about SMART values or WD tools like jmbach suggested?
If so, then the drive was unreadable at some point in time, and the data could be corrupt. Depending where it is, it could be unimportant or important.

Do the reboots always occur after Kickstart code entry window and before the 2nd splash screen? If so I think you should check the log files. There's a good chance there's a message.

I use a PC and Linux CD for this.
http://tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/sho...d.php?t=517410

An eSata enclosure lets you move the drive back and forth without that power supply issue.

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Old 03-21-2015, 01:43 PM   #20
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Wow, that's unfortunate. There's a lot of variables going on now though.
Not as many as it seems...I've tried to be methodical about diagnosing a single factor at a time. I think I've isolated the HDD and cables individually, which turns my suspicions toward a M/B physical issue (connector, etc.) or perhaps a corruption of the flash OS.

Quote:
Were there any errors reported during the cloning or from spinrite?
How about SMART values or WD tools like jmbach suggested?
If so, then the drive was unreadable at some point in time, and the data could be corrupt. Depending where it is, it could be unimportant or important.
No errors with any of the tests. This is one of the reasons I'm no longer thinking this was ever an HDD issue. (Since it seems most TiVo problems are, it seemed a reasonable suspicion.) The OEM HDD passed all SMART tests, the short and extended WD tests, and SpinRite found no errors.

(I also ran extended tests on the replacement 3Tb and the tester 1Tb before using them, as I always do to ensure that I'm starting with a good drive.)

Quote:
Do the reboots always occur after Kickstart code entry window and before the 2nd splash screen? If so I think you should check the log files. There's a good chance there's a message.
Yes, always. Looks like a normal boot sequence through the first splash screen ("Welcome..."), the flashing-yellow kickstart window, where I can reliably get a response to KS codes, and then about 15sec more of the Welcome screen before reboot & repeat. While acknowledging KS codes appropriately, they appear to have no effect, other than maybe slowing the reboot cycle just a bit.

Quote:
I use a PC and Linux CD for this.
http://tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/sho...d.php?t=517410
Never tried that. Looks complicated, but I'd be willing to give it a go if revealed anything that could help me resolve this.

Quote:
An eSata enclosure lets you move the drive back and forth without that power supply issue.
I didn't realize this was possible. Do you mean using an eSata drive (in this case, the OEM HDD) exclusively, rather than as an extender? Leaving the M/B SATA & power connectors empty?

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Old 03-21-2015, 01:57 PM   #21
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I didn't realize this was possible. Do you mean using an eSata drive (in this case, the OEM HDD) exclusively, rather than as an extender? Leaving the M/B SATA & power connectors empty?
Not quite as possible in how everyone would want. I'll sometimes use a Sata drive, in an external case, which makes an eSata drive. Then an eSata to Sata cable to the M/B Sata on the Tivo. Or eSata to eSata cable to a PC.

Most people don't need this, but those of us debugging, it streamlines the reconnections some.

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Old 03-21-2015, 02:18 PM   #22
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Yeah,
Unfortunately, it's a no-go with the Roamio. The flash OS must check for a load on that M/B power connector, because even in its currently dysfunctional state, the Roamio immediate detects that it's not powering the drive and starts flashing all the front indicator lights. It doesn't even proceed to the "Welcome...." stage.
I experienced the same response when I tried to see if the unit will boot from an external drive only. I thought it was because the SATA connector was not connected but your testing seems to indicate it is looking for a load on the power connector.


Quote:
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I've never had to send a TiVo in for service before. Any idea how something like a failed M/B, etc. impacts Lifetime Service on the unit?
If you let them fix it, they will charge you a fee for out of warranty service but the lifetime normally gets transferred. Doesn't hurt to call them and ask.

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Old 03-21-2015, 02:39 PM   #23
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Not quite as possible in how everyone would want. I'll sometimes use a Sata drive, in an external case, which makes an eSata drive. Then an eSata to Sata cable to the M/B Sata on the Tivo. Or eSata to eSata cable to a PC.

Most people don't need this, but those of us debugging, it streamlines the reconnections some.
Quote:
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I experienced the same response when I tried to see if the unit will boot from an external drive only. I thought it was because the SATA connector was not connected but your testing seems to indicate it is looking for a load on the power connector.
Yeah, that's what appears to be going on....it fails to detect an HDD power load (on the M/B connector) and immediately aborts the boot. I'm afraid this would be the case, as well, with an externally-powered eSATA drive.

Kinda interesting that they chose to fault on the power load rather than on the SATA connection. Worried, perhaps, about what kind of external drive array hacks the creative types might explore...


Quote:
If you let them fix it, they will charge you a fee for out of warranty service but the lifetime normally gets transferred. Doesn't hurt to call them and ask.
Yeah, I assume there'll be a repair cost involved. I was more worried they might try something like "Lifetime Service is for the life of that unit...and that unit is dead. So sorry." (Then offer me $100 off on a shiny new one! )

My one last effort is to prepare a blank HDD again and see if the Roamio will recognize it and do its new-install routine. If not (and I'm not very hopeful), I have to assume this is a more serious failure that requires service.

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Old 03-21-2015, 03:02 PM   #24
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I experienced the same response when I tried to see if the unit will boot from an external drive only. I thought it was because the SATA connector was not connected but your testing seems to indicate it is looking for a load on the power connector.
Oh, this is news to me, as a lowly Roamio Basic owner, which gets much further without a drive.

But jmbach's explanation that a SATA connection (device) is required sounds more plausable than a load required.
Could someone with a healthy Roamio Pro/+ confirm b-ball-fanatic's results?

Edit: actually there is a good reason to check the load on a Hard Drive before booting, which is staggered or staged power demand, but since the base Roamio doesn't do this yet could use it, I had low expectation any Tivo would.


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Old 03-21-2015, 04:07 PM   #25
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Wow....so that was enlightening.

I just called TiVo. The CSR wanted me to go through a single troubleshooting step, a cold boot (with nothing attached but HDMI and power cables). When that failed to successfully boot the machine, he informed me that it "appears to need service. We don't service TiVos." He suggested I try Weaknees or another DVR repair service. (But emphasized that they have no official association with any of them, so cannot make recommendations.)

So...TiVo doesn't service Tivos. I'm kind of stunned, in that he basically said "It's out of warranty, you're on your own." Said it politely, but that was the gist. He thought the Lifetime Service would stay with the machine through a Weaknees repair, but wasn't entirely sure.

--------------------------------------------------
Any reason not to proceed with Weaknees? Through 14 years and eight TiVos, I've never had an issue requiring repair, so I've never paid attention to who's good, who's not, etc. Since there's apparently no such thing as "authorized" TiVo repair services, I guess I just have to go on reputation and word-of-mouth.


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Old 03-21-2015, 04:19 PM   #26
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Tivo CSR is that polite adjective one level beyond useless. Too many examples of wrong information we know about because users come here when they got sent down the wrong path.

You seem pretty technical, so you might use a TTL cable to get the error messages, which is really low cost. But if it's getting to Kickstart, you can get away with the log files instead.

If it's the flash got corrupted but is still good, I could probably rewrite that if you want to ship it my way.


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Old 03-21-2015, 04:33 PM   #27
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Roamio boot order

A Roamio boot goes something like:

Initialization
BSP verifier checks Bootloader
Bootloader (U-Boot), selects device loads/checks/boots Kernel
Kernel checks Root FS
Mounts '/' and runs startup scripts in rc.d, which has stages called:
  1. StageA_PreKickstart
  2. StageB_PostKickstart
  3. StageC_MediaInitialization
  4. StageD_PreMfs
  5. StageE_PreApplication
  6. StageF_ApplicationLaunch
  7. StageG_PostApplication

Kickstart code entry is the end of Stage A.
/var/logs starts running at the beginning of StageB.
Blank drive formatting occurs in the middle of Stage A.

The "Welcome" screen is from the bootloader.
The "Almost there" screen is from StageC

HDD tests are Stage E.

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Old 03-21-2015, 08:30 PM   #28
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telemark, jmbach....any technical sorts who might be around tonight:

Piddling around with more combinations of HDDs, power sources, and SATA cables today, I was making no progress at all when I left it in its happy reboot loop to go eat some dinner.
An hour later, I come back to this. I didn't even realize I'd left it on....



I'm beyond perplexed, as I've seen literally nothing but the 45sec reboot loop for almost two days. Anyway, it's a very temporary moment of opportunity, since it's running off a 1Tb temp HDD attached via separate SATA and my jerry-rigged power connector:




Can you think of anything I can do, while it's actually up & running, that might help at least diagnose this bizarre issue? I have little confidence that I can get it restarted if I power it down.

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Old 03-21-2015, 09:01 PM   #29
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You can hit the "INFO" button which will display the OS version that booted. Then let us know.

Otherwise, at that point the only thing you can do is finish Guided Setup, which is a reasonable thing to do.


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Old 03-21-2015, 09:05 PM   #30
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20.4.6a.RC1-USA-6-840-INIT

Also, I do seem to be able to do soft reboots.

----------------
Edit: Oh sorry, I should have clarified....I did finish guided setup (just used 00000 and Tiny TiVo)

I don't have a good understanding of what parts of the Roamio OS permanently reside in flash, and which are installed to the HDD upon initial setup. Or whether software updates actually re-flash (which seems awfully risky....). Anyway, I'm wondering if one of the kickstarts that forces a software re-install could help? If it just goes to the HDD, it wouldn't. But if there's any way to ensure the flash kernel is kosher....


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