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Old 07-10-2014, 09:00 PM   #91
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Originally Posted by bareyb View Post
Who is he hurting other than himself?
I appreciate your concern for my well being.
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Old 07-10-2014, 09:03 PM   #92
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Unless you set that TiVo up as a prayer shrine with pictures no one is going to side with you here. And don't forget the pictures or you wont be believed. Don't want your TiVo service anymore? Why do you hate America? LOL
Are you sure? I think they're wavering.

I sincerely hope you're finding this entertaining.
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Old 07-11-2014, 11:02 AM   #93
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Oh I am. I love the threads where someone has an issue and "The Crew" comes to the rescue to tell them how wrong they are and TiVo is the very bestest thing out there so stop trying to get sympathy.

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Are you sure? I think they're wavering.

I sincerely hope you're finding this entertaining.

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Old 07-11-2014, 01:06 PM   #94
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I think my comprehension skills are above average. This doesn't mean I'm immune to making mistakes.
Not understanding the terms of your subscription for years on end is not a mistake.
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Old 07-11-2014, 07:04 PM   #95
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Not understanding the terms of your subscription for years on end is not a mistake.
Why would I care? I gave them a cc # and they billed it monthly. You guys (yes, I'm generalizing) seem to think I live and breath TiVo. I can't say that I ever read those terms, and if I did if was years ago. I wasn't buying a car.

You really expect that the average person knows the terms of their TiVo agreement and on what day of the month it ends? I will happily confess that TiVo doesn't play that big a role in my life.

And for the 5th time (or maybe the 6th), what difference does it make. You guys don't seem to get (or care) that it's about the principle, not the money.

At this point I'm pretty sure I'm just writing to myself. For all practical purposes this has become a religious argument.
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Old 07-11-2014, 07:11 PM   #96
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Oh I am. I love the threads where someone has an issue and "The Crew" comes to the rescue to tell them how wrong they are and TiVo is the very bestest thing out there so stop trying to get sympathy.
My personal favorite are replies that state "I don't have that problem", and nothing more.

Other than to ascerbate (make worse) the way the person with the problem feels, such posts read as utterly snooty/snarky/snobby to somebody having a problem, even if that somehow was not the intent. Silence by others implies they do not have the problem, and it doesn't take a genius to know that.

OTOH, if somebody says "I don't have that problem, have you tried (suggestion)?", or "(Suggestion) may be why you have your problem", that post is an example of a "community", rather than a group of mean-spirited and/or TiVo fanboys of the "TiVo can do no wrong" lynch mob mentality.

I am not implying sympathy to the OP's perception of being wronged by TiVo. I'm only commenting on the quoted member's post.
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Old 07-11-2014, 07:17 PM   #97
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You really expect that the average person knows the terms of their TiVo agreement and on what day of the month it ends?
the billing cycle, sure, i know for every service provider i have, or know where to find the info.

the terms of every service provider? heck no, they change at the drop of a hat, i would have wasted days just reading. the only time to i even bother reading the terms is when i sign up, when there's a problem, or before ending the service. i don't commit them to memory.

that said, after thinking about your rant, i had a realization - i can't think of another service provider to which i have ever subscribed, when i was required to pay in advance, that failed to refund partial charges for unused services at the end of the relationship. that makes tivo's terms an anomaly for me, too.

considering the dollar amount in question, it wouldn't have been a deal breaker for me. plus, i generally end service in the last few days of the billing cycle, so i don't have to haggle for refunds.
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Old 07-11-2014, 10:33 PM   #98
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plus, i generally end service in the last few days of the billing cycle, so i don't have to haggle for refunds.
Thank you for getting my point. I don't usually need to ask. It never occurred to me I would need ask (or haggle) given the conditions.
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Old 07-11-2014, 10:37 PM   #99
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What is the principle? That most places will give you a partial refund and TiVo won't? Is that why you are done with TiVo?
I don't think there's any more I can write to explain it. Communication is not my forte.

There's a right way to do business and wrong way. There are agreements, and there is treating customers the right way.

And to those of you who think I'm acting entitled, you're wrong. I'm not saying I deserve this treatment for some special reason. I'm saying we all do.
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Old 07-11-2014, 10:43 PM   #100
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Originally Posted by Darichard View Post
Why would I care?
So that you understand what will happen when you end the subscription.



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I gave them a cc # and they billed it monthly. You guys (yes, I'm generalizing) seem to think I live and breath TiVo. I can't say that I ever read those terms, and if I did if was years ago. I wasn't buying a car.

You really expect that the average person knows the terms of their TiVo agreement and on what day of the month it ends? I will happily confess that TiVo doesn't play that big a role in my life.
Nope, don't expect it at all from the average person until the issue actually comes up and they feel the need to whine about it. The information is easily obtained from two different sources.


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And for the 5th time (or maybe the 6th), what difference does it make. You guys don't seem to get (or care) that it's about the principle, not the money.
The problem is that you are wrong on that front too. You were negligent in not understanding the terms of a tivo subscription. It's really a simple contract issue. if you understood it when you entered into it, you'd have no reason to make the claim you're making now.

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At this point I'm pretty sure I'm just writing to myself. For all practical purposes this has become a religious argument.
No, it's become a logic (us) vs feelings (you) argument.
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Old 07-11-2014, 10:51 PM   #101
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that said, after thinking about your rant, i had a realization - i can't think of another service provider to which i have ever subscribed, when i was required to pay in advance, that failed to refund partial charges for unused services at the end of the relationship. that makes tivo's terms an anomaly for me, too.

considering the dollar amount in question, it wouldn't have been a deal breaker for me. plus, i generally end service in the last few days of the billing cycle, so i don't have to haggle for refunds.
That's just plain wrong.

The reason Tivo doesn't offer a refund is because when you cancel, the subscription isn't actually canceled until the prepaid period ends. You can call and cancel the day after you get billed and use the service for 29 more days until the subscription ends. You can use every last penny of service you've paid for. The OP's problem is that he had a broken Tivo that he chose not to fix.
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Old 07-12-2014, 12:16 AM   #102
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That's just plain wrong.
if your referring to the policy, i agree.
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The reason Tivo doesn't offer a refund is because when you cancel, the subscription isn't actually canceled until the prepaid period ends.
no matter how you word it, that is charging customers for unused services, by forcing the customer to subscribe past the date the customer requests to leave. since the customer pays in advance, this is a way for tivo to avoid refunds for unused services.

this leaves tivo standing alone in its policy compared to every other service provider with which i have done business.
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Old 07-12-2014, 12:26 PM   #103
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No, it's become a logic (us) vs feelings (you) argument.
Just to be clear: people saying my story is fabricated, calling me a troll, writing "don't let the door hit ya", accusing me of making an empty threat about cancelling, presuming to know my motives, and calling me entitled, accusing me of acting out... this all sounds logical to you? As well as you calling me a whiner? That's logic?

I think you may be confusing the words logical and legal. Many of you are saying I'm legally bound to pay for the remainder of the month of service for my HD. I've never disputed that. Many here keep telling me what I'm obligated to do. I'm well aware of this.
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Old 07-12-2014, 01:42 PM   #104
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Many of you are saying I'm legally bound to pay for the remainder of the month of service for my HD. I've never disputed that.
that's an interesting question. i wonder if any judge or arbitor would agree with a customer being billed for service they asked to be discontinued? just because something's written into a customer agreement doesn't make it right or legal.

if i have 3 boxes with directv or comcast, and call to disconnect 1, they will issue a partial months credit for the 1 box through the end of the billing cycle if i paid in advance.

of course, finding the answer would cost more than the cost of the unused service, and that's probably what the writers of the agreement were counting on! i have said before, that in itself would not have prevented me from using the service.
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Old 07-12-2014, 02:11 PM   #105
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that's an interesting question. i wonder if any judge or arbitor would agree with a customer being billed for service they asked to be discontinued? just because something's written into a customer agreement doesn't make it right or legal.

if i have 3 boxes with directv or comcast, and call to disconnect 1, they will issue a partial months credit for the 1 box through the end of the billing cycle if i paid in advance.

of course, finding the answer would cost more than the cost of the unused service, and that's probably what the writers of the agreement were counting on! i have said before, that in itself would not have prevented me from using the service.
The canceling of service can be complicated, for some services you cancel from Comcast your pro rate is from the day you cancel, other services from Comcast you must return the equipment not needed anymore before the pro rate starts. Pro-rate is costly for any co. to do, so I think TiVo does not do pro-rate because of the monthly charge being so small. It is hard for me to believe that TiVo makes tons of money by not giving pro-rate money back, also we don't know if TiVo can pro-rate the service that provides the guide data to TiVo.
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Old 07-12-2014, 02:15 PM   #106
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The canceling of service can be complicated, for some services you cancel from Comcast your pro rate is from the day you cancel, other services from Comcast you must return the equipment not needed anymore before the pro rate starts.
i wasn't talking about leased equipment charges, where the equipment needs to be returned for a partial month's refund.

i was only speaking to the services provided to owned equipment, which are switched on and off electronically by the provider through computers.
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Old 07-12-2014, 02:23 PM   #107
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i wasn't talking about leased equipment charges, where the equipment needs to be returned for a partial month's refund.

i was only speaking to the services provided to owned equipment, which are switched on and off electronically by the provider through computers.
Maybe in the analog days but now you do need some type of leased equipment to receive any cable, IE cable card(s) Comcast converter box. I just got another Mini so I did not need the "free" cable box that came with my Comcast package, but I could not get my free cable card billing until I returned the converter box even though Comcast could have cut off my converter box from receiving anything.
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Old 07-12-2014, 02:50 PM   #108
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Maybe in the analog days but now you do need some type of leased equipment to receive any cable, IE cable card(s) Comcast converter box. I just got another Mini so I did not need the "free" cable box that came with my Comcast package, but I could not get my free cable card billing until I returned the converter box even though Comcast could have cut off my converter box from receiving anything.
comcast has no analog here, and equipment is billed separately. you can return the cable card (or modem, or box) to the local office to stop equipment charges. over the phone you can disconnect comcast package services receive a refund for partial month's unused services.

with directv (if you own your equipment), you can disconnect it over the phone and get a refund for partial month's unused services (nothing to return, not analog). it's the same with leased equipment with directv, the equipment is billed separately, and they charge you for unreturned equipment if it doesn't arrive soon after disconnect. even if it's leased, you receive a refund for partial month's unused services immediately when you call to disconnect a box.

with tivo, you own your equipment, you can disconnect over the phone (nothing to return) - no refund. tivo is different.
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Old 07-12-2014, 04:06 PM   #109
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comcast has no analog here, and equipment is billed separately. you can return the cable card (or modem, or box) to the local office to stop equipment charges. over the phone you can disconnect comcast package services receive a refund for partial month's unused services.

with directv (if you own your equipment), you can disconnect it over the phone and get a refund for partial month's unused services (nothing to return, not analog). it's the same with leased equipment with directv, the equipment is billed separately, and they charge you for unreturned equipment if it doesn't arrive soon after disconnect. even if it's leased, you receive a refund for partial month's unused services immediately when you call to disconnect a box.

with tivo, you own your equipment, you can disconnect over the phone (nothing to return) - no refund. tivo is different.
I agree.
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Old 07-12-2014, 04:30 PM   #110
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Just to be clear: people saying my story is fabricated, calling me a troll, writing "don't let the door hit ya", accusing me of making an empty threat about cancelling, presuming to know my motives, and calling me entitled, accusing me of acting out... this all sounds logical to you? As well as you calling me a whiner? That's logic?
........
Well, it **could** be. One can make a logical decision or take a position based strictly on logic, and still get very emotional when talking about it. If the posters in all the instances you mentioned logically believe your position is wrong, then their use of emotional or informal language isn't necessarily illogical. Of course it's possible at least some of them are using the situation to beat up on you just because they enjoy doing that. One can't be sure about such things and it does seem to happen frequently on anonymous forums.

And making unjustifiable assumptions about the motivations of others happens a lot too.
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Old 07-12-2014, 09:30 PM   #111
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Virgin mobile does not give you a pro rated refund if you cancel mid month
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Old 07-12-2014, 11:11 PM   #112
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Virgin mobile does not give you a pro rated refund if you cancel mid month
no pre-paid wireless phone service does, including att, verizon, & t-mobile.

but, when you have month to month service, even under contract, when you cancel with att, verizon, & t-mobile, you get a credit for the unused service to the end of the billing cycle. if there's a termination fee, it's charged, too, but the service is refunded from the day you cancel.
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Old 07-13-2014, 08:38 AM   #113
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that's an interesting question. i wonder if any judge or arbitor would agree with a customer being billed for service they asked to be discontinued? just because something's written into a customer agreement doesn't make it right or legal.
Right. I should have said "contractual" rather than legal. I have no idea if it's legal or not, but I suspect it is.
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Old 07-13-2014, 11:23 AM   #114
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Right. I should have said "contractual" rather than legal. I have no idea if it's legal or not, but I suspect it is.
If the "contractual terms" are reasonable they will hold, if TiVo "contractual terms" are unreasonable they will not hold up. IE: anyone canceling monthly service with TiVo will pay a cancellation fee of $1000 (that was said on page 45 in the contract.)
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Old 07-13-2014, 11:33 AM   #115
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Well, it **could** be. One can make a logical decision or take a position based strictly on logic, and still get very emotional when talking about it.
It could be. But I believe I was accused of being emotional vs. the forum being "logical." I don't see where I've been overtly emotional about this and I believe I'm using logic. I think TiVo is wrong for the reasons I've already stated. I made my argument. Other have reacted with accusations and name calling. The point is, I don't the point made by somebody else about emotion vs. logic is correct.
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Old 07-13-2014, 12:52 PM   #116
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that said, after thinking about your rant, i had a realization - i can't think of another service provider to which i have ever subscribed, when i was required to pay in advance, that failed to refund partial charges for unused services at the end of the relationship. that makes tivo's terms an anomaly for me, too.
Must have never been a Netflix subscriber or Gamefly subscriber. I know Netflix still does this with DVDs and did it before they split DVD and streaming. If you cancel your service so it doesn't autorenew, it doesn't matter when your month is over they won't ship you another DVD. You are just given until the end of your month to return any outstanding DVDs.
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Old 07-13-2014, 01:12 PM   #117
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It could be. But I believe I was accused of being emotional vs. the forum being "logical." I don't see where I've been overtly emotional about this and I believe I'm using logic. I think TiVo is wrong for the reasons I've already stated. I made my argument. Other have reacted with accusations and name calling. The point is, I don't the point made by somebody else about emotion vs. logic is correct.
I, at least, have no idea what "principle" is involved here that you keep on claiming is driving you, and thus I don't understand your logical position.

You've made it very clear that it is not TiVo's policy itself that is at stake - you were very willing to accept the $10 (my guess as to the money) if they were willing pay it and continue to do business with TiVo even if they had a policy you didn't like.

It's not the principle that TiVo is not upholding their end of the user agreement - you've stated that contractwise TiVo is completely in the right and you have no legitimate claim according to the contract.

That leaves the principle that you feel it is right to extort $10 from any company you do business with if you feel they should be doing something different from what they are, irrespective of contract or your obligations. (You're the one using the argument to TiVo "If you don't give me $10 I think I'm owed on this contract with you (even if I admit our agreement says you don't owe it to me), I'm going to cost you money on this other separate contract, so you'd better pay up".)

As far as I can tell from the information you've given, and I agree that's only one side of the story, TiVo has behaved perfectly properly and politely throughout all of this, and you have not.
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Old 07-13-2014, 11:30 PM   #118
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I, at least, have no idea what "principle" is involved here that you keep on claiming is driving you, and thus I don't understand your logical position.
Ok. I don't know how to explain it differently. A couple of other people on this thread seem to understand my position and have given examples of why it could seem reasonable to them. Maybe you want to read those posts(?).

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That leaves the principle that you feel it is right to extort $10 from any company you do business with if you feel they should be doing something different from what they are, irrespective of contract or your obligations. (You're the one using the argument to TiVo "If you don't give me $10 I think I'm owed on this contract with you (even if I admit our agreement says you don't owe it to me), I'm going to cost you money on this other separate contract, so you'd better pay up".)
More accusations. Do you know what the word "extort" means? I made no demands on TiVo. I am choosing not to do business with them any longer. How is exercising my rights as a customer extortion?

I never said TiVo needed to pay up. I asked for nothing.
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Old 07-15-2014, 03:13 PM   #119
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More accusations. Do you know what the word "extort" means? I made no demands on TiVo. I am choosing not to do business with them any longer. How is exercising my rights as a customer extortion?

I never said TiVo needed to pay up. I asked for nothing.

I'm sympathetic to your complaints here, as I do think TiVo should (in cases where there is a new box being sub'd) pro-rate or otherwise not make you pay for the old broken box.

That said, he's right about his usage of 'extort.' You are demanding X (to which you are not legally or morally entitled) or else you will destroy Y (in this case, an existing relationship with TiVo on the new box). You explained this consequence to the rep, per your own story.

This is extortion. Of course, extortion is a legal term, right? So we don't apply it to non-legal matters except as an illustration of the principal, not as the actual crime. But as an illustration of the idea, what you did was extortion.

We all do it though, in some form. It's just usually implied or implicit, whereas you explicitly stated it. Which is kinda breaking our established social contract.

Imagine walking into best buy and saying "give me $5 off this DVD or I'm going to return the TV i just bought from you last week." We'd all call you a ****** bag for that, right? But saying "give me money back on this month of service I bought that I don't want anymore, or else I'm going to return this DVR I bought from you" well, you think that's just because you paid for something you can't use, and you want TiVo to accept that cost, not you.

*shrug*

It's an ethos. It's fine to have that ethos. But don't pretend you don't have that ethos. Embrace it.
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Old 07-15-2014, 04:14 PM   #120
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That said, he's right about his usage of 'extort.' You are demanding X (to which you are not legally or morally entitled) or else you will destroy Y (in this case, an existing relationship with TiVo on the new box). You explained this consequence to the rep, per your own story.
But he's not. I never said "pro-rate me or else." I never asked for anything. She told me her actions. I told her the likely result. That is in no way extortion.

Your neighbor says he's going to cut down a tree that is on the property line between your houses. You reply that when he does, you will report it to the HOA. Is that extortion?

The OED defines extort as: "Obtain (something) by force, threats, or other unfair means." I obtained nothing, I did not threaten, and I did nothing unfair.

Extortion has to do with a wrongful use of force or power, not exercising your rights and informing. If I had given her an ultimatum that will still have not been extortion. But I didn't, so it most certainly was not.
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