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Old 06-02-2014, 08:10 PM   #1
marklyn
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Moca bandwidth too low errors - help

A couple of days ago I had TWC at my home for 2 hours fixing an internet problem. Short story, he honestly did a good job and got my internet cleaned up nicely by replacing faulty coax ends and one 2 way splitter that appeared to be losing tons of signal.
Before he left there was a little pixelation on one of my channels that I usually watch and the signal level for that channel was 66%, not good.
He took another look in the attic and decided the best thing to do was to install an 8 way splitter/amp. So he did and all of my signals are now very high 90's and SNR on any given channel is low 40's.
Everything on the Roamio plays well, no problems whatsoever, however I'm now seeing my mini's being problematic with C133 or V87 (disconnect) errors.
I'm also seeing in the network status on the Roamio where there are Moca bandwidth too low errors.

Here's what I know. Before the splitter/amp was put in, the signals to my minis never failed, they were solid. Each mini and the Roamio have their own IP assigned. I'm using Moca (obviously). Ethernet connection to my Roamio (wired).

He placed a POE filter on the coax input to the amp and he placed another POE filter on the output to the modem but I wouldn't see how that would be related to my issue. The Roamio and 2 mini's I have are connected to the other part of the splitter.
The only thing I've noticed that's different is that the SNR is now generally very low 40's, occasional 39 here and there.

I'd appreciate some diagnostic advice. I don't understand what I'm looking at when I look at the TX and RX levels on the mini or the Roamio but sometimes I'm seeing a 'reset modem' in the errors. I guess I don't know what levels I need to look for on the mini's vs Roamio to know what's going on.
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Last edited by marklyn : 06-02-2014 at 08:11 PM. Reason: updated info
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Old 06-02-2014, 09:33 PM   #2
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Might be easier to resolve if the amp came before the splitter rather than using an amped splitter. Do you happen to know what frequency the amp is rated for (probably 1 GHz)?

The low-hanging fruit would be to try to lower the moca channel in Settings and see what happens. If it's on Auto, tune it to the lowest one.
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Old 06-02-2014, 09:34 PM   #3
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What is the make/model of the amp?

What are the spec's on the amp as far as frequency range? It may be attenuating the higher frequencies that Moca uses.

Is the amp spec'd for bi-directional signals? Again, it might be attenuating the signal.
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Old 06-02-2014, 09:41 PM   #4
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Originally Posted by marklyn View Post
A couple of days ago I had TWC at my home for 2 hours fixing an internet problem. Short story, he honestly did a good job and got my internet cleaned up nicely by replacing faulty coax ends and one 2 way splitter that appeared to be losing tons of signal.
Before he left there was a little pixelation on one of my channels that I usually watch and the signal level for that channel was 66%, not good.
He took another look in the attic and decided the best thing to do was to install an 8 way splitter/amp. So he did and all of my signals are now very high 90's and SNR on any given channel is low 40's.
Everything on the Roamio plays well, no problems whatsoever, however I'm now seeing my mini's being problematic with C133 or V87 (disconnect) errors.
I'm also seeing in the network status on the Roamio where there are Moca bandwidth too low errors.

Here's what I know. Before the splitter/amp was put in, the signals to my minis never failed, they were solid. Each mini and the Roamio have their own IP assigned. I'm using Moca (obviously). Ethernet connection to my Roamio (wired).

He placed a POE filter on the coax input to the amp and he placed another POE filter on the output to the modem but I wouldn't see how that would be related to my issue. The Roamio and 2 mini's I have are connected to the other part of the splitter.
The only thing I've noticed that's different is that the SNR is now generally very low 40's, occasional 39 here and there.

I'd appreciate some diagnostic advice. I don't understand what I'm looking at when I look at the TX and RX levels on the mini or the Roamio but sometimes I'm seeing a 'reset modem' in the errors. I guess I don't know what levels I need to look for on the mini's vs Roamio to know what's going on.
This cable amp works great with MoCA, have it installed in four home using MoCA. http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00...?ie=UTF8&psc=1

Good luck
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Old 06-02-2014, 09:58 PM   #5
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Might be easier to resolve if the amp came before the splitter rather than using an amped splitter. Do you happen to know what frequency the amp is rated for (probably 1 GHz)?

The low-hanging fruit would be to try to lower the moca channel in Settings and see what happens. If it's on Auto, tune it to the lowest one.
Not familiar with lowering the moca channel. I see that all of my moca channels (on mini's and Roamio) is set to 15. Should I set them all to something lower?

I also see the Tx level on the Roamio seems to be low around 60-70 where the RX level is high.

The amp is made by ppc, model EV01-5-u/u, see attached pic. The installer was very familiar with Moca and POE filters and issues surrounding Moca so I felt like he was giving me an amp that he knew would work. He said he's used this amp in situations before.
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Old 06-03-2014, 01:53 AM   #6
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Specs:
http://www.ppc-online.com/Products/E...ive-return.cfm
Installation:
http://www.ppc-online.com/docs/MKTim...-Generic-2.pdf

The specs says it goes up to 1002Mhz, and the Installation Guide says it supports MOCA but to only use the Active ports.

Could you clarify what's connected to which ports, especially the 3rd one from left. Where are the Roamio and Minis connected, and if there's any other equipment down those lines.
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Old 06-03-2014, 02:12 AM   #7
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Moca 1.1 (What the tivo uses) operates in the 500 to 1650mhz range.... so channel 15 is at the high end of the range and so it may be being attenuated being so far outside the spec of your amp. Drop it down, but if you make it too low it might collide with what is already on your wire, so try something in the low middle and see how it responds...

I was tempted to comment that you might want to connect the cable if you want it to work (looking at your example picture)
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Old 06-03-2014, 06:59 AM   #8
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Specs:
http://www.ppc-online.com/Products/E...ive-return.cfm
Installation:
http://www.ppc-online.com/docs/MKTim...-Generic-2.pdf

The specs says it goes up to 1002Mhz, and the Installation Guide says it supports MOCA but to only use the Active ports.

Could you clarify what's connected to which ports, especially the 3rd one from left. Where are the Roamio and Minis connected, and if there's any other equipment down those lines.
I've attached an updated photo of what cabling goes where. I don't understand what you're saying about active ports, are you referring to something on the amp? And why did you ask about the 3rd one from the left?
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File Type: jpg TW_Amp.jpg (115.5 KB, 13 views)
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Old 06-03-2014, 07:01 AM   #9
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Moca 1.1 (What the tivo uses) operates in the 500 to 1650mhz range.... so channel 15 is at the high end of the range and so it may be being attenuated being so far outside the spec of your amp. Drop it down, but if you make it too low it might collide with what is already on your wire, so try something in the low middle and see how it responds...

I was tempted to comment that you might want to connect the cable if you want it to work (looking at your example picture)
Do I change the moca channel on all of the devices, mini's and Roamio, or when you change it on the Roamio, does it automatically change it on the mini's?
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Old 06-03-2014, 12:37 PM   #10
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Do I change the moca channel on all of the devices, mini's and Roamio, or when you change it on the Roamio, does it automatically change it on the mini's?
The Minis may or may not be set to Auto, but putting them on the same channel as the Roamio can't hurt. It's probably best while you're at it anyway.
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Old 06-03-2014, 01:57 PM   #11
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I've attached an updated photo of what cabling goes where. I don't understand what you're saying about active ports, are you referring to something on the amp? And why did you ask about the 3rd one from the left?
The active ports are the 4 on the right. The 3 on the left do other things, so the Tivo's should not have been plugged into those.

It looks correct to me, unless there's some additional splitters down those lines? Are the lines particularly long?

I'll second, take the channel down a couple notches, see if it improves. Then take it down a couple more notches, see if it improves.

If the frequency adjustment doesn't help, you can replace the amp, or add your own splitters back in.
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Old 06-03-2014, 02:11 PM   #12
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The active ports are the 4 on the right. The 3 on the left do other things, so the Tivo's should not have been plugged into those.

It looks correct to me, unless there's some additional splitters down those lines? Are the lines particularly long?

I'll second, take the channel down a couple notches, see if it improves. Then take it down a couple more notches, see if it improves.

If the frequency adjustment doesn't help, you can replace the amp, or add your own splitters back in.
The lines are around 65-70' to the TA/Roamio and maybe 40' to the mini's. There is no coax split to the Tuning Adapter which feeds into the Roamio. (I was thinking, since I have a dual run to that location, about using one coax for the TA and one for the Roamio) since I have an extra port open on the amp.

I hesitate in adding my own splitters back since that was in place when the signal was around 65-75 on some channels and resulted in some pixelation. The amp has certainly cleared that up well.
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Old 06-03-2014, 02:27 PM   #13
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The lines are around 65-70' to the TA/Roamio and maybe 40' to the mini's. There is no coax split to the Tuning Adapter which feeds into the Roamio. (I was thinking, since I have a dual run to that location, about using one coax for the TA and one for the Roamio) since I have an extra port open on the amp.

I hesitate in adding my own splitters back since that was in place when the signal was around 65-75 on some channels and resulted in some pixelation. The amp has certainly cleared that up well.
What I underlined in the quote is likely the problem, or a big part of a larger problem.

Tuning Adapters can not pass through MoCA frequencies, Cisco ones tend to malfunction if a PoE filter isn't used to keep the MOCA out. Motorola ones seem to be immune to MoCA-induced malfunctions, but should still be on a split, not pass-through method.

The correct configuration, when MoCA is in use, is to split, put a PoE filter on one leg and connect it to the TA, then connect the other leg directly into the TiVo.

Trust me on this. It should be the first thing you do. At least make sure to split before the TA, rather than pass-through it to your Roamio. The PoE filter for keeping MoCA out of the TA can come later, if you don't have one on hand. The splitter alone should make a major improvement.

I usually put a coax terminator on the output port of the TA, to avoid signal ingress/egress, but I've never seen anybody else say they do the same.

TiVo's guide/diagram for installing Tuning Adapters is the exact opposite of correct, once MoCA is involved.
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Old 06-03-2014, 02:31 PM   #14
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The lines are around 65-70' to the TA/Roamio and maybe 40' to the mini's. There is no coax split to the Tuning Adapter which feeds into the Roamio. (I was thinking, since I have a dual run to that location, about using one coax for the TA and one for the Roamio) since I have an extra port open on the amp.
Oh wait... do you have the RF-out of the Tuning Adapter going to the Roamio? That can kill moca too. Don't use the RF-out on the TA. If you have a dual run to that location, do put one leg going to the TA, the other to the Roamio.

Edit: What nooneuknow said.

See what that does.
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Old 06-03-2014, 03:01 PM   #15
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Oh wait... do you have the RF-out of the Tuning Adapter going to the Roamio? That can kill moca too. Don't use the RF-out on the TA. If you have a dual run to that location, do put one leg going to the TA, the other to the Roamio.

Edit: What nooneuknow said.

See what that does.
OK, can do. But, in the beginning when I got the Roamio and TA (several months ago now), I had it set up that way: 1 splitter in the AV cabinet with one going to TA and one to Roamio but there was occasional pixelation on some channels; however, the MoCa to the mini's seemed to work with no hiccups. When I went direct to TA and out to Roamio the signals improved and pixelation went away. My recent moca problems appeared only after the amp was installed, so I've never had moca issues in my current coax configuration.
That being said, I'm willing to try using that extra unused port on the amp and go straight to the Roamio and leave the one already connected to the TA. This means I won't need a moca filter on the TA since I already have one between the amp and my cable modem, right?

Aside from the obvious hope of eliminating the "moca bandwidth too low" errors, can I monitor the TX/RX on the Roamio to my minis? Are there certain numbers I need to watch for for either TX or RX? Also, should I be streaming something to a mini if these numbers are important to note?
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Old 06-03-2014, 03:48 PM   #16
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This means I won't need a moca filter on the TA since I already have one between the amp and my cable modem, right?
You should have a split with a PoE filter per Tuning Adapter in the house, in addition to the one at the actual "Point of Entry", and in addition to if you are using one to keep MoCA out of your cable modem.

PoE filters can be used to block MoCA from getting past any segment it needs to be on. They don't absorb it. They reflect the signals back. This effect can improve reliability and performance, by isolating the MoCA to only where it needs to get to/needs to be. Any device that doesn't have a built-in MoCA filter can malfunction when MoCA frequencies are present, and allowed in.

I checked back to your original post. You have the Cisco TA that does not play well with MoCA (can't pass it through, and tends to malfunction if not filtered).

If you had Cox, instead of Time Warner, you'd be issued a "self install kit", for each Tuning Adapter, which would include a 5-1002 MHz splitter, a PoE filter, additional cables, and instructions/diagrams showing the splitter with the PoE filter on one leg, with that leg going to the TA, and the other leg to the TiVo.

Interestingly enough, Cox doesn't bother to tell you that there should be a PoE filter at the Point of Entry, or ask if you have one, and leaves it to you to know you need that one, acquire it, and install it.
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Old 06-03-2014, 05:00 PM   #17
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Not disagreeing with the TA comments, but in addition, the TA is a return channel device. It should have been put on a cable modem port.

The cable modem port is already occupied by the cable modem. You could split that port after you switch to a dual run.

I'm not saying to do it or not, I'll let others chime in with more experience. But if you discover you have TA problems, at some point, this would be relevant to that.

Is the cable modem and TA close enough that you could plug the cable modem into the TA?
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Old 06-03-2014, 05:06 PM   #18
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Aside from the obvious hope of eliminating the "moca bandwidth too low" errors, can I monitor the TX/RX on the Roamio to my minis? Are there certain numbers I need to watch for for either TX or RX? Also, should I be streaming something to a mini if these numbers are important to note?
Yeah, you can check PHY rates to/from all moca devices in the Roamio's network settings. The general rule of thumb is anything over a PHY rate of 200 is solid. Tivo says 180 for their purposes which is probably fine, but I like 200+ because I'm a stickler.
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Old 06-03-2014, 05:19 PM   #19
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Yeah, you can check PHY rates to/from all moca devices in the Roamio's network settings. The general rule of thumb is anything over a PHY rate of 200 is solid. Tivo says 180 for their purposes which is probably fine, but I like 200+ because I'm a stickler.
Should I check all of the rates from the Roamio and jot them down as I try different things or do I need to check them on each device as they're streaming? I'm not really clear on this part.

Oh duh. I just re-read your post and you did say to check them all from Roamio, still, do I need to have something streaming to one of the mini's at the time I'm checking the rates on the Roamio?
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Old 06-03-2014, 06:36 PM   #20
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R E S O L V E D !!!!

OK, so connected up the additional unused coax to the amp --> Roamio, so now I have 1 coax from amp to Roamio and 1 coax from amp --> tuning adapter.
Then I took the POE filter off of the modem coax line and moved it to the tuning adapter input coax (My SB6141 has POE built in so I didn't need it).
Now all of my moca levels are in the 280's on all of my minis!!!

Thanks everyone for great suggestions and help!!!
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Old 06-03-2014, 07:29 PM   #21
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OK, so connected up the additional unused coax to the amp --> Roamio, so now I have 1 coax from amp to Roamio and 1 coax from amp --> tuning adapter.
Then I took the POE filter off of the modem coax line and moved it to the tuning adapter input coax (My SB6141 has POE built in so I didn't need it).
Now all of my moca levels are in the 280's on all of my minis!!!

Thanks everyone for great suggestions and help!!!
...and there was much rejoicing <yay>

For future visitors of the thread, this still is a "split". The split just takes place at the amp/distribution block (a bit further back than "usual").

If you'd have disclosed the cable modem earlier, I'd have said to use that PoE filter for the TA. I could have asked, too.

Just to button this all up nicely: You do have an actual PoE filter (before any splits or amps) where the single lateral coax feed comes into the house, right?

If you do, you should be good to go. Telemark's point about the TA having an upstream/return channel (like a cable modem) was a valid point, if you have any TA/SDV issues in the future.
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Old 06-03-2014, 07:46 PM   #22
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Yay too.

I ideally would want to know the TA is not having a high error rate. Is there a way to get into it's diagnostics?

I figure it's boosting it's signal to get back across the amp, which wouldn't have been helping the MOCA issue, though resolved.
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Old 06-03-2014, 07:56 PM   #23
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...and there was much rejoicing <yay>
Just to button this all up nicely: You do have an actual PoE filter (before any splits or amps) where the single lateral coax feed comes into the house, right?
Yes, the first thing the cable 'from the street' touches is a POE filter, then the input to the amp.
As a sidenote, when I took off the POE filter to my modem I got a slight + bump in -dB, so that's good.

Thanks again everyone.
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Old 06-03-2014, 07:58 PM   #24
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Yay too.

I ideally would want to know the TA is not having a high error rate. Is there a way to get into it's diagnostics?

I figure it's boosting it's signal to get back across the amp, which wouldn't have been helping the MOCA issue, though resolved.
Tell me what to check on and I'll report back here. The only thing I know to check is the dB signal for the TA, which is now at -12. I thought that was supposed to be on the high side but so far no problems and signal strength for each channel I've tested thus far is 98-100, so I'll ignore that for now.
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Old 06-03-2014, 08:44 PM   #25
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Tell me what to check on and I'll report back here. The only thing I know to check is the dB signal for the TA, which is now at -12. I thought that was supposed to be on the high side but so far no problems and signal strength for each channel I've tested thus far is 98-100, so I'll ignore that for now.
Settings & Messages>Account & System Info>Tuning Adapter>Tuning adapter Diagnosics> (now the fun starts).

-12 (down) on a TA is low. +12 would be high. The closer to zero, the better, most of the time, but sometimes works better a little one way, or the other.

The DVR Diags screen is reading the signal as it is sent to the TiVo, The TA is reading directly what is sent to (and from) the TA, although you use the TiVo to access the TA Diag screens.

The TA uses a different (standardized) method of measuring signals, and SNR, as opposed to TiVo's bastardized way, with a false SNR. Keep that in mind when comparing them.

If the TA is running back to a port that isn't designed for the Return Data Channel (RDC/upstream) to pass freely, I'd be amazed if there are no problems. The Tivo only has Forward Data Channel (FDC/downstream) to the tuner and cablecard.

But, I also don't recommend fixing what isn't broken.

Look for any dBmV signal levels in the TA Diags, in both directions, and the SNR values that are present. Then get TiVo's DVR Diags values, and let's see what's what.
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Cisco tuning adapters should never be used inline (using the TA coax OUT port) to connect a TiVo, if MoCA is in use. Use a splitter w/PoE filter on leg to TA, use other leg for the TiVo. Enjoy!
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Old 06-03-2014, 09:16 PM   #26
marklyn
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nooneuknow View Post

If the TA is running back to a port that isn't designed for the Return Data Channel (RDC/upstream) to pass freely, I'd be amazed if there are no problems. The Tivo only has Forward Data Channel (FDC/downstream) to the tuner and cablecard.

Look for any dBmV signal levels in the TA Diags, in both directions, and the SNR values that are present. Then get TiVo's DVR Diags values, and let's see what's what.
I went to the TA diags, status summary screen and one time I saw -9dB, then a few minutes it went to -2dB and hasn't done any more movement. I could not find the snr readings under status summary screen.

In the Tivo DVR diags, I don't see a dB reading but all of my signal strengths were still 98-100, and my SNR's for each of the six channels listed ranged from 41-45.

I don't understand what you said in the quote above. Do you mind expanding on that? I have a pic of the amp/splitter in a previous post, are you saying the TA should be on a specific port of the amp? Sorry to be dense.
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Old 06-03-2014, 11:07 PM   #27
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From Left
Port 1 - "In", from Cable Company
Port 2 - "Output", unamplified, designated for upstream devices
Port 3 - Power Input

(may not be compatible with upstream devices)
Port 4 - Amplified Output, Optional Power Input
Port 5 - Amplified Output
Port 6 - Amplified Output
Port 7 - Amplified Output
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Old 06-03-2014, 11:40 PM   #28
nooneuknow
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Quote:
Originally Posted by telemark View Post
From Left
Port 1 - "In", from Cable Company
Port 2 - "Output", unamplified, designated for upstream devices
Port 3 - Power Input

(may not be compatible with upstream devices)
Port 4 - Amplified Output, Optional Power Input
Port 5 - Amplified Output
Port 6 - Amplified Output
Port 7 - Amplified Output
What this guy said.

If ports 4-7 don't allow the RDC/upstream of the TA to pass backwards through the amp/splitter unhindered, you'll likely have issues with SDV if the TA can't power-through. If it is working very hard to power-through, that can cause problems all on it's own.

If you call Time Warner and ask them to check the signals from their end, they will be quick to spot a weak return and possibly a low SNR, which will only be visible on their side (just like you can only read downstream SNR on your side). They should be able to read everything, if you get the right person on the phone.

I'm amazed anything has been working for you, based on the start of this this thread, and what has been revealed so far. Much improvement has been made. If you want to shoot for near perfection, make the call to TW, or just wait and see if any problems creep up with the SDV/TA, now that the MoCA is straightened-out.
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Cisco tuning adapters should never be used inline (using the TA coax OUT port) to connect a TiVo, if MoCA is in use. Use a splitter w/PoE filter on leg to TA, use other leg for the TiVo. Enjoy!
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Old 06-04-2014, 06:57 AM   #29
marklyn
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nooneuknow View Post
What this guy said.

If ports 4-7 don't allow the RDC/upstream of the TA to pass backwards through the amp/splitter unhindered, you'll likely have issues with SDV if the TA can't power-through. If it is working very hard to power-through, that can cause problems all on it's own.

If you call Time Warner and ask them to check the signals from their end, they will be quick to spot a weak return and possibly a low SNR, which will only be visible on their side (just like you can only read downstream SNR on your side). They should be able to read everything, if you get the right person on the phone.

I'm amazed anything has been working for you, based on the start of this this thread, and what has been revealed so far. Much improvement has been made. If you want to shoot for near perfection, make the call to TW, or just wait and see if any problems creep up with the SDV/TA, now that the MoCA is straightened-out.
Well, I'd like to believe that the TWC guy that was in my attic and suggested the amp in the first place gave me something that would not be likely to cause these problems, but I know that's not always the case. He did seem knowledgeable about moca & Tivos based on the various conversations we had about both.
So far I'm good but I'm closely monitoring tx/rx levels, dB and SNR levels at least twice a day just to make sure nothing strange happens.

I'll call TWC as suggested but can you tell me what, specifically, to ask them to check? Also, if they inquire as to why I'm asking, I just say I want to compare to my levels?

Thanks again.
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Old 06-04-2014, 07:01 AM   #30
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RDC/FDC levels

I just remembered that I did see some RDC and FDC levels in one of the TA diags screens but I didn't notice the levels. Is there some particular level, or threshold, I should notice for either one of those?
Do those related to the potential problem for upstream issues related to the amp?
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