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Old 06-02-2014, 04:40 PM   #31
CrispyCritter
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Originally Posted by nooneuknow View Post
I'm NOT saying that using these switches is a cure-all, or will force TiVo to stop telling everybody that every TiVo device must be plugged directly into the router ports (which are ports of a built-in switch).
I'm not aware that this is TiVo policy or even that TiVo has ever said that. I certainly believe that TiVo support reps are not making their points clear, and it is certainly possible that some reps don't understand TiVo policy.

What I'm hearing, reported here and in other threads, is that TiVo support will not debug potential network problems unless all TiVo devices are plugged directly into the router. I consider this reasonable and definitely in line with what everybody else does (in the past I've had to temporarily reconfigure my home networks in order to get Comcast help with internet problems (that turned out to be rain in a damaged line)).

There's a big difference between TiVo telling folks that they won't debug problems if there are extra switches, and them telling folks that all TiVo devices must be plugged into router ports at all times ( and I agree their reps need more training to make this point clear to users, in that right now it obviously is not.)
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Old 06-02-2014, 04:51 PM   #32
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I never said I want TiVo to come to my house and check out my network. But they could provide a list of switches they recommend. Provide a list of trouble shooting tips for TiVos connected to a switch.
They did that in the past, when wired and wireless connections were introduced, and it turned out to be very messy and very expensive in terms of support. Lots of unhappy folks here during that time with lots of complaints.

They evidently swore never to do it again, and they changed to supporting only their own brand of wireless connection, and only their own approved external disks.
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Old 06-02-2014, 09:38 PM   #33
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The switches and routers I have on my network that appear to work well with TiVo
Arris TM722 cable modem
Asus N66u router (merlin firmware)
Linksys E4200 V1 router (Ver.1.0.05 Build 7 firmware)
D-Link DGS-2208 green switch
D-Link DGS-1100-08 managed switch
D-Link DGS-1008G smart switch
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Old 06-02-2014, 10:52 PM   #34
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V87 error. Tivo doesn't support switches. Huh?

Tivo's policy on this matter is the worst. They will not provide support for Tivo's using their Ethernet interface. It's not if it's a type of router or switch. Their only supported configuration is MOCA. I have tried to escalate my incident and they made an excuse by pointing to my switch networking and upgraded HD on my Tivo Roamio Basic. Throughout the case, they never ask how it's connected to the network, or model of my switch.

My Tivo's actually connected to one Asus N66U router with Merlin firmware. And my v87 problem is not network related at all. I work in IT for over 10 years to understand how to troubleshoot things. These issues will not be addressed if other folks (with non-modified Tivo) that are affected do not call in and escalate. I am not going to remove my 3tb out of my Tivo Roamio Basic. And even if I do, they will make other excuses.

*** email from tivo

Thank you for contacting TiVo Customer Support! This is a response to your current issue that is noted on reference number 140526-003624. We have researched this case further. Two issues we see are that you are attempting to use a switch as part of your networking setup. Additionally it appears the internal hard-drive of the DVR has been modified with a larger drive. With an unsupported network and hard-drive, we have no additional troubleshooting steps to offer. If you have any questions please contact us using any of the following methods.

Customer Support Line at 877-367-8486
E-mail team at http://support.tivo.com/app/ask.
Chat team at http://support.tivo.com/app/chat/chat_launch

Replies directly to this email will not be received.

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Old 06-08-2014, 11:42 AM   #35
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I've been in computer systems infrastructure for most of my career and so I am the "LAN consultant" for most of my friends. At least 50% of the LANs I see are poorly configured (chains or trees of switches, gigabit switches and devices plugged into fast Ethernet switches, routers plugged into routers, etc.). While some of the folks responding to this thread (including myself) may have well designed networks, we are in the minority. Therefore, I can't seriously fault TiVo support for wanting as many variables as possible removed from the network before being willing to troubleshoot (it is also just good troubleshooting procedure). As others have said, this message is getting distorted when talking to the CSRs but that is also par for the course.

As far as pushing folks towards MOCA goes, it is not an unusual practice. DirecTV, for example, will not support ANY method of DVR interconnection besides MOCA (or DECA as their version is usually called). Implementing MOCA is so simple I don't really get the resistance. While MOCA is only about as fast as Fast Ethernet, that is really more than adequate for the average user and keeps all the TiVo to TiVo traffic off your LAN (and vice versa). Few people have more than 100Mbit internet connections, so it won't effect downloads. The only thing that will be enhanced by gigabit connections between TiVos is copying recordings between DVRs. If that is your issue, you can get into a supported config by plugging your DVRs into your router and only configuring one of them to use both Ethernet and MOCA, while leaving the other on Ethernet only, at least while debugging the problem.

It seems to me that if a company earning billions a year (DirecTV) refuses to support Ethernet at all, it is not all that surprising that TiVo has decided to limit the network configurations it can support.
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Old 06-08-2014, 08:33 PM   #36
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So I started this thread and just want to update what I came up with and how (knock on wood) I solved it. My current setup has all my devices connected to the same network segment. I have 5 surveillance cameras and a server that are blasting video recordings and live stream data 24/7 on the switch that has all the Tivo's connected together. On a whim I decided to implement port based vlan, segmenting off the video camera equipment from the rest of the network. Havn't had a v87 since it was implemented a week and a half ago. There might have been packet collisions, maybe some bonjour (Tivo Beacon?) multicast interference from the cameras. Not sure. I know it wasn't the switch because it happened with a cheap Netgear and a enterprise Juniper switch. So far so good.
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Old 06-08-2014, 08:44 PM   #37
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Originally Posted by bunjicat View Post
So I started this thread and just want to update what I came up with and how (knock on wood) I solved it. My current setup has all my devices connected to the same network segment. I have 5 surveillance cameras and a server that are blasting video recordings and live stream data 24/7 on the switch that has all the Tivo's connected together. On a whim I decided to implement port based vlan, segmenting off the video camera equipment from the rest of the network. Havn't had a v87 since it was implemented a week and a half ago. There might have been packet collisions, maybe some bonjour (Tivo Beacon?) multicast interference from the cameras. Not sure. I know it wasn't the switch because it happened with a cheap Netgear and a enterprise Juniper switch. So far so good.
I call a flag on the play! facts not in evidence!!!


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Old 06-08-2014, 10:17 PM   #38
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Lol. But come on! An enterprise switch shouldn't flinch at such load.
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Old 06-08-2014, 10:29 PM   #39
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Even a consumer switch is fine. I have a dozen IP cameras sending video 24/7 over a segment of my network to a PC running Blue Iris and Tivo Desktop. If I connect a Mini to that segment it will still work fine with my DLink, unmanaged, GigE switches.
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Old 06-08-2014, 10:35 PM   #40
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Lol. But come on! An enterprise switch shouldn't flinch at such load.
But it is a valid point that when someone is having connection issues we assume a standard consumer network and devices, you threw a series of high-bandwidth usage on it but didn't mention it.

FWIW this is exactly why Tivo won't support more complicated networks, and in that aspect you've proved them right in why they don't/shouldn't do it IMNSHO.
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Old 06-09-2014, 01:28 AM   #41
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So I started this thread and just want to update what I came up with and how (knock on wood) I solved it. My current setup has all my devices connected to the same network segment. I have 5 surveillance cameras and a server that are blasting video recordings and live stream data 24/7 on the switch that has all the Tivo's connected together. On a whim I decided to implement port based vlan, segmenting off the video camera equipment from the rest of the network. Havn't had a v87 since it was implemented a week and a half ago. There might have been packet collisions, maybe some bonjour (Tivo Beacon?) multicast interference from the cameras. Not sure. I know it wasn't the switch because it happened with a cheap Netgear and a enterprise Juniper switch. So far so good.
You definitely got the last laugh!

If I had overtly suggested the solution you used, I'd have been relentlessly hammered by some, as other TiVo with ethernet switch topic threads I have participated in have proven.

You certainly ruffled some feathers, and have proven that even finding your own solution to your own problem will still be scrutinized by some, and villainized by others.

One participant seems to have a problem free configuration for every possible TiVo scenario, but only lists one TiVo in their signature...

Who would have ever guessed that utilizing a network management function would fix your scenario? I guess "my friend" would...
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Old 06-15-2014, 03:04 PM   #42
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Just came across this thread. I can tell you the minis works fine with switches. I use four trend net switches and no problems except for a slight lag when channel changing or playing a video. Each mini has its own 5 port switch and my asus router connects to an eight port which then connects to the three other switches which are in separate rooms. I made my own cat 6 cables.
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Old 06-15-2014, 04:05 PM   #43
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Just came across this thread. I can tell you the minis works fine with switches. I use four trend net switches and no problems except for a slight lag when channel changing or playing a video. Each mini has its own 5 port switch and my asus router connects to an eight port which then connects to the three other switches which are in separate rooms. I made my own cat 6 cables.
The term will not work with a network switch is not what TiVos problem is, most systems will work using a network switch, but not all and TiVo does not want to support the few cases when using a network switch is causing the problem with your TiVo. I have a network power monitor that will not work when connected to a switch, works great when connected directly to one port of my router, don't know why and don't care why, my network printer works great connected to the same switch.
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Old 06-15-2014, 07:43 PM   #44
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The term will not work with a network switch is not what TiVos problem is, most systems will work using a network switch, but not all and TiVo does not want to support the few cases when using a network switch is causing the problem with your TiVo. I have a network power monitor that will not work when connected to a switch, works great when connected directly to one port of my router, don't know why and don't care why, my network printer works great connected to the same switch.
My network printer didn't work if the router got rebooted, without a hard power cycle of the printer. So, I put it on a secondary switch (counting the router as the first switch). Yet, even then it still sometimes acted up. Finally just gave it a reserved IP, and it works fine either way, even though it specifically has a DHCP setting, and is the default option...

Some have found the same with TiVos, but it seems most don't want to assign static IPs to their TiVos.

I prefer to set the devices to DHCP, then use the router to make sure the DHCP has a "reserved" address for each device.

I like bunjicat's last-laugh, mostly due to it being "not the usual way one uses a TiVo", but still opening up an possibility for others to try, if equipped to do so, segmenting using a VLAN, as opposed to running a dedicated physical cable, to take out a switch (or switches).

That's also a way to fix VoIP issues, when the endpoint adapters act-up on switches beyond the router. It would have been my next step, had Priority rules not worked. At the same time, members have claimed they have other brands of VoIP units that work fine after passing through six or eight switches.

Still not something most have the type of equipment, or expertise, required to implement, more so than my QoS/Priority suggestions. But, VLANS often come up in articles on improving QoS.

I'm not trying to elbow you, or spark any disagreements. I'm just pointing out the YMMV factor, on so many things.
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Old 06-16-2014, 12:57 AM   #45
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My network printer didn't work if the router got rebooted, without a hard power cycle of the printer. So, I put it on a secondary switch (counting the router as the first switch). Yet, even then it still sometimes acted up. Finally just gave it a reserved IP, and it works fine either way, even though it specifically has a DHCP setting, and is the default option...

Some have found the same with TiVos, but it seems most don't want to assign static IPs to their TiVos.

I prefer to set the devices to DHCP, then use the router to make sure the DHCP has a "reserved" address for each device.

I like bunjicat's last-laugh, mostly due to it being "not the usual way one uses a TiVo", but still opening up an possibility for others to try, if equipped to do so, segmenting using a VLAN, as opposed to running a dedicated physical cable, to take out a switch (or switches).

That's also a way to fix VoIP issues, when the endpoint adapters act-up on switches beyond the router. It would have been my next step, had Priority rules not worked. At the same time, members have claimed they have other brands of VoIP units that work fine after passing through six or eight switches.

Still not something most have the type of equipment, or expertise, required to implement, more so than my QoS/Priority suggestions. But, VLANS often come up in articles on improving QoS.

I'm not trying to elbow you, or spark any disagreements. I'm just pointing out the YMMV factor, on so many things.
I have many friends/family that have had network problems, I don't have any now using my Netgear R6300 router (for the last few years), and in desperation in trying to help some people I have made then purchase the same router I have, and their problems go away, not saying my router is the best, just that it works very reliability with the Comcast internet system in my CT home town.
My HP printer works without any problems using DHCP, but some printers I have worked with do require a static IP to work without problems, don't know why but each network and printer are somewhat different and I am no network expert.
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Old 06-20-2014, 02:59 AM   #46
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I hadn't used MRS for a long, long time but had to recently. With Roamio Pro as host and Premiere Elite as client with a MoCA + ethernet connection between I kept getting V87 errors at least once per show, sometimes 3 or 4 times. In all cases just re-starting MRS again after the dropout worked immediately. This seems a lot worse than I can remember for V87 errors. V87 errors I used to get were when I would MRS recordings that had not yet completed. Very rarely would I get V87 error otherwise. Looks like recent TiVo code has made things much worse...
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Old 06-25-2014, 02:07 AM   #47
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V87 problems abound still. I won't be needing to MRS anymore after tonight. I'd be pissed if I was still a heavy user of MRS and streaming to a series 4 unit.
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Old 07-18-2014, 04:36 PM   #48
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I never said I want TiVo to come to my house and check out my network. But they could provide a list of switches they recommend. Provide a list of trouble shooting tips for TiVos connected to a switch.

Having your first Tier phone support say sorry we don't support switches is not a good way to support your customers.
I couldn't agree more with your statement you just made! I have had this conversation more than one time with Tivo and with some of the users on this forum who seem to want to back Tivo. I don't think anybody here is really asking Tivo to jump through a ring of fire but instead come to the reality of switches are more in the home environment then ever.
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Old 07-19-2014, 02:54 PM   #49
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I couldn't agree more with your statement you just made! I have had this conversation more than one time with Tivo and with some of the users on this forum who seem to want to back Tivo. I don't think anybody here is really asking Tivo to jump through a ring of fire but instead come to the reality of switches are more in the home environment then ever.
I had some switch problems (not TiVo type as I use MoCA and a direct connection from the main Roamio to the Router) and solved them by purchasing a smart Netgear (GS108T) switch that has its own IP address into my router, and has all kinds of settings that a router may have, solved all my switch problems.
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Old 07-19-2014, 04:03 PM   #50
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We only have one Tivo, but it is a wired connection through a D-link DGS-1005G green gigabit switch. We actually have 3 of these switches on our network, all of which have bandwidth-intensive devices connected. We have never had a single error, and don't have any difficulty streaming HD video between devices.

Tivo may not support them, but switches don't inherently cause any Tivo connectivity issues. I would try resetting the switch first, and possibly try replacing it with one from a store that takes returns (Walmart) to see if the switch is indeed causing the errors. A bad switch anywhere on the network can also cause connectivity issues elsewhere, so disconnecting other devices could help isolate the problem.

Lastly, don't forget that the cable itself can go bad. I have spent hundreds replacing devices only to discover that all I needed was a $5 cable.
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Old 07-24-2014, 07:57 AM   #51
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My issue with TiVo on this network switch issue isn't that the configuration isn't supported, it's that they don't TELL you it's not supported until you've already spent your money. There's nothing on their product pages that says a switched network config isn't supported.

There's so much missing information on TiVo's web site it virtually amounts to false advertising.
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Old 07-24-2014, 10:26 AM   #52
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My issue with TiVo on this network switch issue isn't that the configuration isn't supported, it's that they don't TELL you it's not supported until you've already spent your money. There's nothing on their product pages that says a switched network config isn't supported.

There's so much missing information on TiVo's web site it virtually amounts to false advertising.
Once again, folks are not fully understanding TiVo's position. I would guess a vast majority of the folks here are running TiVos with switches. It works; TiVo expects it to work.

But TiVo will not help you debug TiVo network problems unless you take out the switches. An unfortunate, but understandable, position. Too many folks have local networks with problems, and TiVo uses some advanced features that expose those problems. I don't know any major player that will debug your local network problems for free.

If you want TiVo's help, you'll have to temporarily reconfigure your network so the TiVos don't go through any switches. This is exactly the same thing as I have had to do in the past to get Comcast to debug internet problems. It's exactly the same thing as most industry vendor support - they will only debug (for free) for you if you put your system in a known state. Anything else has to be paid for and specified in your contract.
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Old 07-24-2014, 02:05 PM   #53
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Once again, folks are not fully understanding TiVo's position. I would guess a vast majority of the folks here are running TiVos with switches. It works; TiVo expects it to work.



But TiVo will not help you debug TiVo network problems unless you take out the switches. An unfortunate, but understandable, position. Too many folks have local networks with problems, and TiVo uses some advanced features that expose those problems. I don't know any major player that will debug your local network problems for free.



If you want TiVo's help, you'll have to temporarily reconfigure your network so the TiVos don't go through any switches. This is exactly the same thing as I have had to do in the past to get Comcast to debug internet problems. It's exactly the same thing as most industry vendor support - they will only debug (for free) for you if you put your system in a known state. Anything else has to be paid for and specified in your contract.


I have reconfigure my Tivo Roamio and Tivo Mini setup to their undocumented supported configuration specifications and they are making new excuses to not believe that v87 is a software issue. I have switch my Roamio OTA and Mini setup from network switch to Moca network. It was worst off and I had constant v87s than with my switches. They sent me two replacement Moca adapters and they also want me to add a Moca filter into the configuration. MY coaxial network is only connected to antenna on roof, pre-amp, then amp, and then a 4-way 1200 MHZ splitters to my Tivo's. They insist I need a moca filter at my cable modem to increase the coaxial signal. The cable modem is in another house and it's only providing internet via uplink to my switch. I am hoping they finally get someone to dump logs when they have run out of excuses.
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Old 08-05-2014, 11:18 PM   #54
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V87 error. Tivo doesn't support switches. Huh?

Wow I have a Mini connected three switches and a wireless bridge away from my Roamio and I don't have any of these problems. It actually works really well.
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Old 08-12-2014, 12:33 PM   #55
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New example of there being a software problem:

I was watching TV via one of our Minis yesterday and went into the guide to see what else was on. While browsing the guide a V87 error popped up, saying that connection to the host Roamio had been lost. However, at no point did the video stream stop. Other than the error on the screen there was no evidence anything had happened. I was forced to go back to the TiVo home screen, since that was the only way to clear the error message.
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Old 08-12-2014, 02:45 PM   #56
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New example of there being a software problem:

I was watching TV via one of our Minis yesterday and went into the guide to see what else was on. While browsing the guide a V87 error popped up, saying that connection to the host Roamio had been lost. However, at no point did the video stream stop. Other than the error on the screen there was no evidence anything had happened. I was forced to go back to the TiVo home screen, since that was the only way to clear the error message.
I wonder how long the connection has to go down before the V87 error comes on, if it is only 0.1sec you may not notice the loss of connection, but the electronics does, and on comes the V87 error.
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Old 08-24-2014, 10:49 AM   #57
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Just my opinion on V87

Hi All!

Sadly I don't have much time in my schedule to be more active in the community, but I wanted to throw my 2 cents worth in here. Replies may not be looked at for months so a conversation with my participation won't happen. SORRY!

I have 2 Roamios, run hard wired via Cat 5e, one setup to an antenna, the other setup to Comcast via cable. I record my most viewed shows OTA for better quality, and use the Comcast box for the cable only channels. The OTA box is in the other room from my main viewing area, so probably 80% of my viewing is "watch the other box". I therefore have a lot of experience with that pesky v87.

My Comcast Internet is their max speed (105 Mbps) but running speed tests I routinely get 90 - 130 Mbps, so I've plenty of bandwidth out of the house. My Cable modem / router has its wireless off as I'm running a Netgear R6300 802.11 AC (Gigabit ports). The TiVoís are on a gigabit switch off that box, both on the same switch. It's a TP-Link TL-SG1008G (8 Port).

The connectors and wiring is all TESTED (I am a Tech after all ... ) and the house is only 7 years old. So, no wiring issues here. In chasing this stupid v87 I have physically swapped out every wire involved as well. It "AIN'T NOT THE WIRES" as they say in the deep south. I'm about to go on vacation, when I get back I'm replacing the switch with a higher quality one and will report back on that.

I'm not a network engineer, but I have been troubleshooting networks since 1983, and have been a Certified Electronics Tech since 1969. I've seen a few things is my point ...

I'm pretty convinced this v87 is software, and TiVo doesn't want to own it for some odd reason.

It could be internal politics. People are people, and anyone who has worked with engineers and programmers knows they tend to be odd ducks, and often very opinionated. (Moi included LOL!) It's the nature of the beast. A Tech or engineer must troubleshoot, and be right. The people, who are responsible for the network software, or their immediate management, don't want to tackle this. Someone powerful there just doesn't want to deal with it. They know it's there; they don't want to own it.

{Rant follows}
This is absurd. They could tell us what switches they know don't work (Tech support could easily gather that data when people call or Email about the issue). They don't.

They could also tell us what switches do work in their knowledge. They don't.

Virtually everyone with a TiVo has a network, sometime complex ones. They could publish an online guide or PDF of how they want it hooked up IN A REAL WORLD ENVIRONMENT, including some variations to accommodate different setups. Do they show us how to setup? They don't.

I do not doubt that some of the v87's are just people with crappy Chinese switches (I have one!), ancient routers that work via signal flags, or even grossly mis-wired combinations (one shudders to think what's out there). I'm sure there's a hardware component issue at work here in some cases.
But - DO THEY GIVE US ANY GUIDANCE?? They don't.

Now I get that they're not Netgear or Cisco and don't want to get into the network troubleshooting game (although, if you make a box that connects to a network by its basic, highly advertised, function you have no choice!).

Many have reported that setting a static IP solves it in some cases, but the average DVR owner shouldnít have to be a network engineer to solve TiVoís problem! Itís their problem, not ours. Do they fix it? They don't. (Itís been around since V4 according to what Iíve read)

However. {Insert pregnant pause here}
It's a software issue. Why, you ask, since I just laid out a great case for the hardware side being at fault?
Because it happens for me, and for many who have posted here, and for countless others who just suffer in silence, JUST BEFORE VIEWING THE END OF A LIVE SHOW BEING RECORDED THAT JUST ENDED!! Sometimes it remembers your place, sometime not.

That's software folks, plain and simple.

There's a communication occurring between the boxes at that point that drops the connection, and as someone suggested earlier, THEY COULD BUFFER FOR A SECOND when the drop occurs. They don't.



It all adds up to: They don't.

They could fix this. Someone there, I suspect some mid manger is defending his / her turf and is not owning up to this and not providing a solution. SOMEONE doesn't care, or doesn't want to be bothered.
It's political, I'm sure, or the network engineers have reached the end of their knowledge and just can't figure out they need to trap the code and buffer it, OR it could be cost. Although it's not THAT expensive to task someone to draw a simple diagram of what's allowed and not on the hardware side with some suggested and forbidden equipment, but again, that's mid management.

Ultimately, what the v87 error is truly about is a software problem coupled to an apathetic manager or someone who has no imagination to solve it. It's too low on the corporate radar for upper management to kick someone's butt.

Only thing we can do is keep calling them and bitching. You want your v87 errors fixed? Call and put up with some 1st level or second level tech with no authority to tell you it's your entire fault. Eventually the numbers will rise and trigger a response. Personally, knowing corporations, I'm not holding my breath.

{END RANT}

When back, I'll try running the TiVos through the Netgear R6300 rather than the switch, again, I don't have much time but I'll definitely try to report back. If no joy I'll try Static or an address range, but again, we shouldn't have to do this level of troubleshooting to get a consumer product to work.

Thanks to all the posters who take their time to help others. I try to do that on several other Forums, but time's a hard thing to come by for me. {Sigh}


All the Best, PuterPro

Last edited by PuterPro : 08-24-2014 at 11:07 AM.
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Old 08-25-2014, 09:22 PM   #58
JWhites
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bunjicat View Post
So why did they code in a V87 error? Somewhere, deep in the bowels of Tivo a software developer knows exactly what generates this error. Unless we get a trouble ticket pushed up the chain of command we will never get it fixed. The fact that others are having the same issue tells me this is not arbitrary.
It's fully possible that even then the ticket will never reach an engineer.
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Old 08-25-2014, 09:27 PM   #59
JWhites
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bunjicat View Post
So I started this thread and just want to update what I came up with and how (knock on wood) I solved it. My current setup has all my devices connected to the same network segment. I have 5 surveillance cameras and a server that are blasting video recordings and live stream data 24/7 on the switch that has all the Tivo's connected together. On a whim I decided to implement port based vlan, segmenting off the video camera equipment from the rest of the network. Havn't had a v87 since it was implemented a week and a half ago. There might have been packet collisions, maybe some bonjour (Tivo Beacon?) multicast interference from the cameras. Not sure. I know it wasn't the switch because it happened with a cheap Netgear and a enterprise Juniper switch. So far so good.
Congrats on finding a solution! Now I'm curious what you're doing with so many cameras. lol
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Old 08-26-2014, 02:00 AM   #60
nooneuknow
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__________________
Cisco tuning adapters should never be used inline (using the TA coax OUT port) to connect a TiVo, if MoCA is in use. Use a splitter w/PoE filter on leg to TA, use other leg for the TiVo. Enjoy!
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