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Old 05-21-2014, 07:45 PM   #1
bunjicat
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V87 error. Tivo doesn't support switches. Huh?

Thats right. Opened up a ticket for the V87 and the reply back was they don't support connections to switches. Only connections to routers. Yep, guess Tivo isn't aware that the LAN ports on the router IS a switch. In case you don't believe me here it is:

"A connection to a switch is not supported. If you would like to use an Ethernet connection for your TiVo Minis and Roamio you must have an Ethernet connection directly to the router, rather than to a switch or hub. If this is not a possible configuration, we recommend considering options for setting up a MoCA network in your home."

Tivo needs to know there is problem in order to fix it. If I can't get past the first level of support then Tivo has deeper problems then I thought.
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Old 05-21-2014, 09:20 PM   #2
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that's been the response I had since Roamio line was introduced. I also attempted to call in for the v87 on my mini last week and couldn't get pass 1st level support too. I also sent an email to margret@tivo and I didn't get a response. so I am not able to provide any details to Tivo in any way possible to figure out if they can fix their bugs. I do believe this v87 is not 100% network related at all but no one at Tivo is listening.
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Old 05-21-2014, 10:38 PM   #3
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Just curious. Are you running pyTivo?
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Old 05-21-2014, 11:52 PM   #4
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I have my Roamio Pro connected directly to the router along with 2 Tivo minis and a switch. The connection is lost 99% of the time when watching a recording that is being taped. Never do I lose the connection when watching previously recorded shows or live tv. I have complained for 6 months now with absolutely no solutions (customer support always plays dumb). Also I have a Roamio Basic connected through the switch, that loses the connection to the Pro just as often. I have a feeling the only solution is a hardware update. If it were possible, the software would have been fixed by now.
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Old 05-22-2014, 07:02 AM   #5
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"not supported" doesn't mean you can't do it or it doesn't work, just that they won't troubleshoot problems with the added components in the network. This is very common in businesses like this to take weird customer configs out of the config process and isolate it to hardware as quickly as possible.

i.e. If in troubleshooting you start with it configured as requested and it still fails, they can work on finding the bad hardware. If you have it going through 3 additional switches, bridges, or double NAT'd routers one of those could be your root cause.
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Old 05-22-2014, 11:12 AM   #6
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Originally Posted by dianebrat View Post
.
i.e. If in troubleshooting you start with it configured as requested and it still fails, they can work on finding the bad hardware. If you have it going through 3 additional switches, bridges, or double NAT'd routers one of those could be your root cause.
I get the process. But when the support person doesn't know the difference between a switch and a router its a non starter. I informed her that she didn't know what she was talking about and maybe she should escalate to someone that does. The reply back was that I should be using MOCA. If you didn't want me to use the switch ports why put them on the device?
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Old 05-22-2014, 12:51 PM   #7
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I have my Roamio Pro connected directly to the router along with 2 Tivo minis and a switch. The connection is lost 99% of the time when watching a recording that is being taped. Never do I lose the connection when watching previously recorded shows or live tv. I have complained for 6 months now with absolutely no solutions (customer support always plays dumb). Also I have a Roamio Basic connected through the switch, that loses the connection to the Pro just as often. I have a feeling the only solution is a hardware update. If it were possible, the software would have been fixed by now.

Like your scenario, 99% of the time, my mini loses connection to my Tivo Roamio Basic on the show I am or was recording at the moment. Also, one time it was repeatedly constantly getting v87 on a recording that had bad static on the OTA recording. It would do a v87 every time I replay and fast forward to the point where it v87. I rebooted both my Tivo Roamio basic and Tivo Mini after 4 attempts of trying to finish viewing that show. On the fresh reboot, I replay the video and when I got to that time slice on the recording, I notice the static on the recording but it continue playing this time.

So I doubt the v87 is all network related after that incident and is a software bug on Tivo's end.
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Old 05-22-2014, 04:35 PM   #8
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I get the process. But when the support person doesn't know the difference between a switch and a router its a non starter. I informed her that she didn't know what she was talking about and maybe she should escalate to someone that does. The reply back was that I should be using MOCA. If you didn't want me to use the switch ports why put them on the device?
Why would there be a process to escalate something they specifically don't want in the troubleshooting process? They're not network technicians, nor should they be, that's why they troubleshoot with a specific baseline config.
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Old 05-22-2014, 08:15 PM   #9
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Why would there be a process to escalate something they specifically don't want in the troubleshooting process?
So why did they code in a V87 error? Somewhere, deep in the bowels of Tivo a software developer knows exactly what generates this error. Unless we get a trouble ticket pushed up the chain of command we will never get it fixed. The fact that others are having the same issue tells me this is not arbitrary.
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Old 05-22-2014, 09:27 PM   #10
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If I had to guess, V87 is a general "signal is corrupted" (possibly expected length of a segment doesn't match actual length?) error that could be caused by the network, but also by something at a higher level.

My bet is this is the same error that has existed for many years when transferring shows from TiVo to PC via TiVo Desktop that have a bad spot in the recording. Transfers get interrupted and can't get past the bad spot in the recording. This sounds like htruong74's error and I could see a bug with show/segment length affecting shows that just finished recording.
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Old 05-22-2014, 10:55 PM   #11
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So why did they code in a V87 error? Somewhere, deep in the bowels of Tivo a software developer knows exactly what generates this error. Unless we get a trouble ticket pushed up the chain of command we will never get it fixed. The fact that others are having the same issue tells me this is not arbitrary.
ARGH! you are not picking up what I'm putting down..

I"m saying that you wanted them to troubleshoot a network issue in a config they don't support
Quote:
But when the support person doesn't know the difference between a switch and a router its a non starter. I informed her that she didn't know what she was talking about and maybe she should escalate to someone that does.
in effect they're saying "hook the mini to the same router/switch you have the Roamio into OR use MoCA and we'll help you, but we don't troubleshoot when there's an additional switch in the mix. You can't escalate it just because you want them to troubleshoot a config they're already saying they won't troubleshoot. The fact that the tech doesn't know more hardcore networking just means they don't troubleshoot in that manner.

They're going off a script, they're not network engineers, and if you give them a config that's not on the "approved" list, they're going to say "we can't help until you get it in an approved config" Get it in an approved config and they'll take note of the V87 error and escalate if needed.
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Old 05-22-2014, 11:49 PM   #12
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ARGH! you are not picking up what I'm putting down..



I"m saying that you wanted them to troubleshoot a network issue in a config they don't support in effect they're saying "hook the mini to the same router/switch you have the Roamio into OR use MoCA and we'll help you, but we don't troubleshoot when there's an additional switch in the mix. You can't escalate it just because you want them to troubleshoot a config they're already saying they won't troubleshoot. The fact that the tech doesn't know more hardcore networking just means they don't troubleshoot in that manner.



They're going off a script, they're not network engineers, and if you give them a config that's not on the "approved" list, they're going to say "we can't help until you get it in an approved config" Get it in an approved config and they'll take note of the V87 error and escalate if needed.


hi,

I just talk with someone from Tivo's 2nd level support team today. I gave the person all the 3 problems with the v87 encounters I had.

1. v87 and doesn't resume to last known position.
2. constant v87 while viewing a recorded show in progress.
3. possible v87 on bad recording.

But the final wrap up of the conversation was that a network switch between Tivo Roamio was not supported and that is the possibility of why I am getting all those v87 even though I told her about issue #2. The only supported configuration is:

1. Tivo's in a Moca config
2. Tivo Roamio can use Ethernet only if directly connected to another Tivo Mini Ethernet port.

So any kind Ethernet switch/router is not a supported config , even if it's the only switch between two Tivo's. So who knows if Tivo will look into this unless I can get a Moca setup and tell them I'm using purely Moca between the Tivo.
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Old 05-23-2014, 07:46 AM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by htruong74 View Post

2. Tivo Roamio can use Ethernet only if directly connected to another Tivo Mini Ethernet port.
Quote:
Originally Posted by bunjicat View Post
"A connection to a switch is not supported. If you would like to use an Ethernet connection for your TiVo Minis and Roamio you must have an Ethernet connection directly to the router, rather than to a switch or hub. If this is not a possible configuration, we recommend considering options for setting up a MoCA network in your home."
Point #2 is incorrect, they will support ethernet connections where the Tivo AND the Mini are both connected to the same switch/router device and there are no other switches or routers in the setup.

They say this to prevent poorly implemented networks from leading them astray.

It's not going to kill anyone to rejigger their config for a bit to troubleshoot with their approved config and THEN you can get escalated.

I'm in IT, all my career I've had to deal with manufacturer techs that insist on a certain base config before troubleshooting an issue, this is nothing new and considering how convoluted a home network can be I can't blame Tivo for having a specific script.


I'm not saying you guys don't have issues, just that I get why Tivo won't troubleshoot certain configs.
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Old 05-23-2014, 11:11 AM   #14
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If we are going to use strict definitions, then by plugging into a "router" the Tivo's wouldn't work at all. Routers route. Layer 3. A router is a device that forwards data packets between computer networks. So Tivo really wants me to connect the devices to a router? Of course they don't. They want me to use a switch. My point is Tivo doesn't really want to fix the problem, they want to obfuscate. If I (Tivo) never acknowledge the problems exists then there was never a problem to begin with.

I knew what Tivo's response would be before I ever submitted a V87 ticket. The V87 error seems random and doesn't affect everyone. It would be difficult to track down the source due to the variations in customer networks.
You can see from the other V87 error threads that tracking the issues can help people. I wish Tivo would realize that.
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Old 05-23-2014, 11:18 AM   #15
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I have two TiVos, both on different switches, and have no trouble.
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Old 05-23-2014, 12:41 PM   #16
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This seems to be a problem with green switches. I know it's not the ideal solution, but have you tried switching switches? You'll probably get a quicker fix doing that than by waiting on TiVo which has to accommodate all types of switches.
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Old 05-23-2014, 12:52 PM   #17
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If we are going to use strict definitions, then by plugging into a "router" the Tivo's wouldn't work at all. Routers route. Layer 3. A router is a device that forwards data packets between computer networks. So Tivo really wants me to connect the devices to a router? Of course they don't. They want me to use a switch.
This is a misleading answer, because a router is also a switch. I'm sure plenty of folks here only have one router in the house and everything's connected to it (for the few devices they have, you don't need an extra switch), and that's the config that Tivo wants to support. We can all disagree as to whether that makes sense but it is what it is, and the easy answer is to connect your Mini to the same switch (or router) as your Tivo before you call them. Or just use MoCA, or hook them up back-to-back if they insist on that. If the problem goes away when you do that, it's probably your network and not the Tivos.

I had a similar issue when I got my Plus - I had a Mini that was formerly paired to my old Elite and I attempted to unpair and repair it with my new Plus. The Mini insisted that I had no eligible DVRs to pair with and nothing I tried worked (including MoCA and a complete reset of the Mini) until I plugged the Mini into the same switch my Plus was on, and then after that I moved the Mini back downstairs (back to its original switch) and it's worked fine ever since. Go figure.

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Old 05-23-2014, 12:54 PM   #18
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I get occasional drops on my mini, about once a month, but I'm using PNA to the Mini to a PNA on the basement ActionTec MoCA enabled router, and the signal from the Tivo Premiere is via Netgear GS-108 switch that is connected to the Roamio which acts as a bridge from MoCA to the media center.


I have no doubt if I tried troubleshooting a network issue Tivo wouldn't even answer the phone
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Old 05-26-2014, 06:04 PM   #19
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I get occasional drops on my mini, about once a month, but I'm using PNA to the Mini to a PNA on the basement ActionTec MoCA enabled router, and the signal from the Tivo Premiere is via Netgear GS-108 switch that is connected to the Roamio which acts as a bridge from MoCA to the media center.


I have no doubt if I tried troubleshooting a network issue Tivo wouldn't even answer the phone
A good switch tries to prevent collisions in the network data, if you are streaming on a few TVs using switches one may tie up the switch and delay some traffic, could be a problem for a TiVo network. The switch built into most routers is the good type that tries to avoid any traffic delay, at least that is how I understand it. I use my tandem switches for other home computers that would have no problem with small delays in network traffic when using the internet.
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Old 05-26-2014, 08:11 PM   #20
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I get occasional V87s. I can't discern any real pattern but it does seem to happen more often during or after FF/REW.

I'm sure some people have messed up networks but it's a cop-out for Tivo to say they don't support switches. I also agree there are bugs or at least mis-features involved. Why does it give up so easily, and why does it do something so disruptive to your viewing? How many buttons do you have to push to get from V87 back to whatever you were watching (at least 3, right?) That assumes it didn't lose your place, which also happens fairly often. Even if there is some temporary network problem, why doesn't it throw up some sort of "buffering" indication and resume with no user interaction, like basically every other streaming video player in existence?

Networked devices should be as tolerant as possible of network disruptions.
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Old 05-28-2014, 07:34 PM   #21
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That sounds like a load of crap, I have one mini behind a router and a switch, then a second mini behind a router and 2 additional switches, plus the Roamio Pro is behind a switch already in addition to the main router. I've never once had problems related to the switches. In another thread I posted what switches I'm using in case that helps anybody.
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Old 05-29-2014, 08:27 AM   #22
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On the other hand, Tivo has had known issues with some green switches. It might be a load of crap but they don't want to deal with it even if their boxes are causing the problem.
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Old 05-31-2014, 07:59 AM   #23
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On the other hand, Tivo has had known issues with some green switches. It might be a load of crap but they don't want to deal with it even if their boxes are causing the problem.
I thought they fixed those issues? I remember when the Roamio was launched there were some issues with certain green switches. But an update in the fall fixed the issue.
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Old 05-31-2014, 09:55 AM   #24
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I get V87 in spurts but then nothing for few weeks and then it will flare up again. I have not been able to root cause it because the fault code is so generic.

But I have my entire house wired with Cat6 using a switch. I have a Roamio and 3 Minis. So there is no way I could put all 4 devices on the Verizon ActionCrap Modem because I would still need one port to feed the switch for all of the other devices.

I think it is poor form of TiVo to make a blanket statement they don't support switches.

Yes, I could move them over to MoCA but I should not have to. To me TiVo went down the path of the Mini and as a result they need to support switches.
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Old 05-31-2014, 02:01 PM   #25
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I get V87 in spurts but then nothing for few weeks and then it will flare up again. I have not been able to root cause it because the fault code is so generic.

But I have my entire house wired with Cat6 using a switch. I have a Roamio and 3 Minis. So there is no way I could put all 4 devices on the Verizon ActionCrap Modem because I would still need one port to feed the switch for all of the other devices.

I think it is poor form of TiVo to make a blanket statement they don't support switches.

Yes, I could move them over to MoCA but I should not have to. To me TiVo went down the path of the Mini and as a result they need to support switches.
I think that TiVo will work with a network switch, I don't know how one would be able to design a network piece of hardware that would know if it were connected to a switch or not (maybe one could measure the delay in the green type of switches), however, the more connections/switches used in any network system the more chance for some problem to come up. WiFi itself uses a switch with about 127 ports. TiVo support is just not going to give you any help if you are using switches external to your router itself.
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Old 06-02-2014, 02:12 PM   #26
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TiVo and Minis do work on the switch. I am not saying they don't work. I am saying TiVo should support and anticipate the users are going to use them on a switch. Not making a blank statement that they will not support them unless they are on the router/modem.
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Old 06-02-2014, 03:21 PM   #27
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TiVo and Minis do work on the switch. I am not saying they don't work. I am saying TiVo should support and anticipate the users are going to use them on a switch. Not making a blank statement that they will not support them unless they are on the router/modem.
What do you expect TiVo to do?

If you have a networking problem with the TiVo at this point, it is either caused by TiVo hardware (in which case the only recourse is replace the TiVo) or your local network. There's very little that can be done changing network setup on the TiVo itself.

You seem to want them to fix your network for free - to have their tech support know all the foibles of various switches, routers, and wiring problems that can occur. That's extremely expensive in both training and on-line time. I don't know anybody that does it for free - ISPs like Comcast certainly won't - do you know anybody?
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Old 06-02-2014, 03:21 PM   #28
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TiVo and Minis do work on the switch. I am not saying they don't work. I am saying TiVo should support and anticipate the users are going to use them on a switch. Not making a blank statement that they will not support them unless they are on the router/modem.
Which are also using a switch. I would think it would be an unusual setup to not be using a switch.
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Old 06-02-2014, 03:43 PM   #29
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Which are also using a switch. I would think it would be an unusual setup to not be using a switch.
I'm sure you've seen me post about this many times (and may not fully agree), so I'll just post for the rest:

The switches built into routers tend to have minimal, to moderate, management capabilities. Most TiVo users buy completely unmanaged switches (which should be fine, in theory, and in logic), which don't honor, or pass-along, what the management in the router's switch dictates.

However, there are unmanaged switches that will play by the router's rules, thus making most of TiVo's arguments against added switches invalid. The standard specification for this is "Honors" or "Supports" "IEEE 802.1p priority tags", which will usually be buried in the fine print under what standards are supported, like IEEE 802.3az - Energy Efficient Ethernet (AKA: Green). They can often be bought for the same price, or a few dollars more than those that don't support the standard.

I'm NOT saying that using these switches is a cure-all, or will force TiVo to stop telling everybody that every TiVo device must be plugged directly into the router ports (which are ports of a built-in switch).

If TiVo truly "does not support switches", then their hard-line stance is contradictory, at face-value, and beyond.
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Old 06-02-2014, 04:13 PM   #30
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What do you expect TiVo to do?
I never said I want TiVo to come to my house and check out my network. But they could provide a list of switches they recommend. Provide a list of trouble shooting tips for TiVos connected to a switch.

Having your first Tier phone support say sorry we don't support switches is not a good way to support your customers.
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