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Old 05-05-2014, 05:59 PM   #31
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Originally Posted by diphosphine View Post
I use two on my network, a Netgear Prosafe GS105 and a Netgear Prosafe GS108, with a TiVO Roamio Pro plugged directly into the GS105. I haven't had any problems.
Well, I forgot to write down the model # but I picked up a netgear FS108 and things have not been so successful as I'd hoped.

I ended up making a new thread here hoping some folks might be able to help me with this issue.
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Old 05-05-2014, 06:10 PM   #32
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It's not always about raw speed. Latency is the root of many issues. Your switches may have supported priority tags. There's no guarantee that even expensive switches have the feature. It's up to the buyer/owner to check the specs on a product. I've spotted a few switches that most would call "cheap", that honor priority tags. It might have used to be a given, then some products may have made a choice to take it out of their budget models, explaining why some of us never heard of it before.

MoCA is a different standard, and could be compared to a subnet/segment. I'd guess it is optimized more for latency, than raw speed, given that it was designed for a pretty specific usage.

The most advanced ways of optimizing QoS and priority traffic involve subnets/segments/VLANS/etc. I have some switches that are "unmanaged", but allow configuration of these network optimizing subsets.

I've seen examples of this with wireless products, which allow for allocating the 5GHz band for A/V traffic, and applying "A/V optimizations".

Net neutrality within the home (all traffic being treated equal), used to be a complete "non-issue". As more A/V streaming becomes part of the traffic, and VoIP becomes more commonplace, traffic QoS/priority/basic-management becomes more and more desirable in home networks.
I've not needed to worry about QOS on FiOS. Since I'm on the 150/65 tier, internet bandwidth between my devices has not been an issue. I had tried it years ago when I had a Dlink router and it made no difference. Although I was on the 35/35 or 75/35 tier back then. I'm using an Asus router now.
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Old 05-05-2014, 06:15 PM   #33
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I can't dispute that having QOS active appears to help your home network however Tivo does not implement any interaction with QOS tagging, they simply aren't that advanced.

As far as someone getting 900 mbps with unmanaged switches and questioning why TiVo's can't come remotely close to such, such is simply not remotely possible with TiVo's as there isn't enough processor power to put that much data across the network interface. TiVo's in terms of network throughput are as about advanced as a 1995 PC with a 10 mb ethernet interface, you do understand that there is a major difference between mbps and mbs? While series 5 Roamio TiVo's can transfer much faster than any other Tivo before them, Tivo dvrs were never designed with networking in mind, they are engineered to process video decoding and processing, file transfer was an afterthought.

The two reasons that Roamio Plus and pro have Gb ethernet is for one the chipset availability and they are designed to handle multiple 100mb clients. Unknown to most logically, a third reason is that the ethernet port on the plus & pro is technically part of 1gb switched port and not the direct interface to a single Gb ethernet interface. Internally the Roamio Plus and pro shares the actual ethernet, Stream and Moca interfaces connected internally (all shared) and the fourth port is the external connection that you connect to your network. From a design point of view, this why the Roamio basic only has 10/100 ethernet as it's interface is a direct Nic and not part of a shared ethernet switch. When you connect your Roamio Plus or PRO to your home network switch, this is in fact a second switched connection.
I was getting 150mbps+ transfer rates with my Roamio Pro before the most recent update. But since the update the fastest transfer I've seen has been just over 100mbps. That was one of the reasons I switched to MoCA after the update. It seems a little quicker using MoCA right now.

Before the Ethernet connection was easily faster. Either way though the transfers speeds from my ROamio BAsic and Roamio Pro are not what the used to be when the previous software was installed. Fortunately though, from a user perspective, there is no difference. It just takes longer for my transfers to finish now.
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Old 05-05-2014, 10:16 PM   #34
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Originally Posted by 2004raptor View Post
Well, I forgot to write down the model # but I picked up a netgear FS108 and things have not been so successful as I'd hoped.



I ended up making a new thread here hoping some folks might be able to help me with this issue.

Have you checked your cables and runs with a network tool. It's a good way to make sure when you punched the wires they have good connection and you don't have any wires flipped. This will help make sure you are following the 568 A/B standard. Not following the standard could affect your networks ability to connect. I have seen some equipment that tolerates non standard cabling and others that do not.
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Old 05-06-2014, 06:16 AM   #35
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I definitely checked the 2 drops for the roamio and mini. I haven't checked my PC drop since I installed the wiring ~10 yrs ago. If I connect fine with my PC and have no other issues I wouldn't think there would be an issue.
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Old 05-06-2014, 10:06 AM   #36
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I learned the hard way that "cheap" switches give you exactly what you pay for.
Totally disagree, my $20 on sale TP-Link TL-SG108 green 1Gb 8-port switch has worked great with every device on it (Windows 7 Media Center PC + extenders, Tivo Mini, gaming PCs etc.). Packet priority has been irrelevant for my usage.
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Old 05-06-2014, 10:42 AM   #37
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My Roamio connects to a Netgear GS108Tv2 in the living room. That switch connects to a Netgear GS724Tv3 in my office where the router and cable modem reside. Both smart switches so they have a web interface for management. I've had no problems network related so far.
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Old 05-06-2014, 10:49 AM   #38
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Trendnet

I have a roamio pro that uses a trendnet green gigabit switch naver had a problem
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Old 05-06-2014, 02:20 PM   #39
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Totally disagree, my $20 on sale TP-Link TL-SG108 green 1Gb 8-port switch has worked great with every device on it (Windows 7 Media Center PC + extenders, Tivo Mini, gaming PCs etc.). Packet priority has been irrelevant for my usage.
A good switch on sale, or being sold at a good price, is NOT the same as a "cheap" switch, in the context I meant.

I wound up paying $20 for each of my Netgear AV-Series 5-port switches with multiple priority handling options (NewEgg Sale). I got my Netgear 8-port mid-range priority-supporting switches for about $40 (NewEgg Sale). I got my Netgear 8-port "smart" switch for about $60 (NewEgg Sale).

I was speaking of the switches that are always the lowest price option, which the buyer might not bother to even read the specs on, before buying.

The everyday prices on the switches I bought are easily 3x what I paid for them (all-inclusive).

Just because something was on sale, or part of a promotion, doesn't make it "cheap" in the context I meant.
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Old 05-06-2014, 02:21 PM   #40
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I have a roamio pro that uses a trendnet green gigabit switch naver had a problem
Great then. I have three 8-port ones, barely used, with everything they came with, including the boxes. Want to help me clear up some clutter?
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Old 05-06-2014, 02:25 PM   #41
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My Roamio connects to a Netgear GS108Tv2 in the living room. That switch connects to a Netgear GS724Tv3 in my office where the router and cable modem reside. Both smart switches so they have a web interface for management. I've had no problems network related so far.
Those are some awesome switches! I have one of the GS108Tv2 ones.

Both of the switches you list honor priority/QoS and can assign priority/QoS. I just wanted to point that out, since you didn't.
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Old 05-06-2014, 02:44 PM   #42
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I can't dispute that having QOS active appears to help your home network however Tivo does not implement any interaction with QOS tagging, they simply aren't that advanced.

As far as someone getting 900 mbps with unmanaged switches and questioning why TiVo's can't come remotely close to such, such is simply not remotely possible with TiVo's as there isn't enough processor power to put that much data across the network interface. TiVo's in terms of network throughput are as about advanced as a 1995 PC with a 10 mb ethernet interface, you do understand that there is a major difference between mbps and mbs? While series 5 Roamio TiVo's can transfer much faster than any other Tivo before them, Tivo dvrs were never designed with networking in mind, they are engineered to process video decoding and processing, file transfer was an afterthought.

The two reasons that Roamio Plus and pro have Gb ethernet is for one the chipset availability and they are designed to handle multiple 100mb clients. Unknown to most logically, a third reason is that the ethernet port on the plus & pro is technically part of 1gb switched port and not the direct interface to a single Gb ethernet interface. Internally the Roamio Plus and pro shares the actual ethernet, Stream and Moca interfaces connected internally (all shared) and the fourth port is the external connection that you connect to your network. From a design point of view, this why the Roamio basic only has 10/100 ethernet as it's interface is a direct Nic and not part of a shared ethernet switch. When you connect your Roamio Plus or PRO to your home network switch, this is in fact a second switched connection.
You do realize that software can assign and use priority and QoS, independent of the hardware, right?

You do realize that certain traffic can be detected at the router as streaming service traffic, or VoIP traffic, and automatically assigned priority, right?

Apparently not, on either count...

Before you come back with more "TiVo is so unsophisticated, it can't possibly be helped by any of these things" replies, how about reading up on the many ways network traffic can be prioritized, without you even knowing it is happening...

Hypothetically (in reality, as well), a device that has no means of using network QoS or priority assigning, can still benefit, when low-priority traffic is assigned a low priority (like background traffic, and most PC-related traffic).
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Old 05-06-2014, 03:22 PM   #43
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You do realize that software can assign and use priority and QoS, independent of the hardware, right?

You do realize that certain traffic can be detected at the router as streaming service traffic, or VoIP traffic, and automatically assigned priority, right?

Apparently not, on either count...

Before you come back with more "TiVo is so unsophisticated, it can't possibly be helped by any of these things" replies, how about reading up on the many ways network traffic can be prioritized, without you even knowing it is happening... Netflix on TiVo is a great example of where my managed 24-port 3Com management switches can show me a very noticeable difference in how my network is performing, and what is going on with different traffic. I don't use those huge rackmount switches for anything except being able to truly see what makes a difference and what doesn't, when I pull one out and hook it up.

Are you equipped to do that? I only am because I saw two of the 3Com rack-mount switches being hauled to the dumpster at the local Catholic Charities store. They throw away things when they have no idea what they are. I used to go there daily to see what ridiculously valuable equipment they would tip in the dumpster.

They are some power-hungry, multi-fan, heavy-duty, giants, but WOW can they do some awesome traffic analysis! Definitely not green, nor something I'd leave in-use all the time.
Oh course a higher quality switch can perform port based QOS however most residential switches don't come close in being able to due such due to low quality port forwarding speeds and the majority of such switch owners wouldn't know how to confugure such if their switch support such.

Tivo device at this time do not include the native QOS priority queuing in their protocol stack, that has nothing to do with hardware rather than the drivers written into the interface Tivo uses.

Yes if one wished to artificially preform port protocol priority forwarding with their TiVo, they could, however the Tivo protocol stack has no provisions for such in the manner that it's currently implemented. YES, an advanced ethernet switch might be able to do such but what is the purpose on a small residential home network that has on average less than 20 nodes? My issue is at hand isn't your knowledge of networking but the idiotic stance Tivo support makes when they state "Tivo doesn't support switches" when such is not true, the real fact is that data networking of Tivo devices is something of a afterthought and low support priority for Tivo rather than being a much more important task that desperately needs to be improved.

The issue of doing traffic profiling and prioritization is helpful on large multi node mixed IP networks that have thousands of nodes all competing for certain limits resources. A average home network with 3 TiVo's, 2 Pc's and few wireless clients doesn't fall under the category of needing such as any traffic priority established is lost once your local network data hit the single interface into your isp's Internet connection.
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Old 05-06-2014, 04:11 PM   #44
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Oh course a higher quality switch can perform port based QOS however most residential switches don't come close in being able to due such due to low quality port forwarding speeds and the majority of such switch owners wouldn't know how to confugure such if their switch support such.

Tivo device at this time do not include the native QOS priority queuing in their protocol stack, that has nothing to do with hardware rather than the drivers written into the interface Tivo uses.

Yes if one wished to artificially preform port protocol priority forwarding with their TiVo, they could, however the Tivo protocol stack has no provisions for such in the manner that it's currently implemented. YES, an advanced ethernet switch might be able to do such but what is the purpose on a small residential home network that has on average less than 20 nodes? My issue is at hand isn't your knowledge of networking but the idiotic stance Tivo support makes when they state "Tivo doesn't support switches" when such is not true, the real fact is that data networking of Tivo devices is something of a afterthought and low support priority for Tivo rather than being a much more important task that desperately needs to be improved.

The issue of doing traffic profiling and prioritization is helpful on large multi node mixed IP networks that have thousands of nodes all competing for certain limits resources. A average home network with 3 TiVo's, 2 Pc's and few wireless clients doesn't fall under the category of needing such as any traffic priority established is lost once your local network data hit the single interface into your isp's Internet connection.
You missed a part I added:

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Originally Posted by nooneuknow View Post
Hypothetically (in reality, as well), a device that has no means of using network QoS or priority assigning, can still benefit, when low-priority traffic is assigned a low priority (like background traffic, and most PC-related traffic).
All I can say, but can't prove, is that my home networking experience (including my TiVo experience) has been greatly improved, since my third round of changing my switches.

I started out with Airlink 100Mbit - seemed OK, but needed more speed.
I switched to Airlink 1Gbit - Power supplies burned out after a few years.
I switched to Trendnet - Fry's had them cheap, two died within a year, replaced them.
I ended with Netgear - Best results and experience, hands-down.

The router has always been a Netgear WNDR3800, running Netgear's software. Very TiVo friendly, with TiVo-specific functions/capabilities.

I'm about to replace the router with a Netgear Centria N900 w/3TB NAS internal storage, DLNA, and automatic backup capability.

I'm a bit nervous, as the reviews on these routers went completely negative once I bought mine, and they are now at "fire-sale" pricing...
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Old 05-06-2014, 04:46 PM   #45
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My Roamio connects to a Netgear GS108Tv2 in the living room. That switch connects to a Netgear GS724Tv3 in my office where the router and cable modem reside. Both smart switches so they have a web interface for management. I've had no problems network related so far.
I may try and borrow a managed switch to see what results I get. I assume you changed some settings, would you mind sharing them with me so I'll know where to start?


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The router has always been a Netgear WNDR3800, running Netgear's software. Very TiVo friendly, with TiVo-specific functions/capabilities.

I'm about to replace the router with a Netgear Centria N900 w/3TB NAS internal storage, DLNA, and automatic backup capability.

I'm a bit nervous, as the reviews on these routers went completely negative once I bought mine, and they are now at "fire-sale" pricing...
Interesting you say that. My AP is a netgear N900. When my roamio was connected straight to it and my mini was connected straight to the linksys, the mini could see the shows on the roamio but errored if you tried to play them or watch live tv.

I keep saying I should change it from a AP back to a router (but still connected to my Linksys) to see if that works.

I'm just kinda tired of plugging/unplugging/rebooting.
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Old 05-06-2014, 05:58 PM   #46
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Not sure about the settings when using the N900 as an AP, but make sure you turn off any firewall associated filters like content filtering, stateful inspection, etc. Some of the security features might be applied on the Lan side causing some communication problems.
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Old 05-06-2014, 06:31 PM   #47
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Didn't read the whole thread but the trick with switches is making sure the items you want networked are on the same sub net.

Everything you want to talk to each other needs to be connected to the same box or router or they will be in different ip subnets. If you connect the switch to a router the items on the switch likely will not see the items in the router and vice versa.
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Old 05-06-2014, 06:39 PM   #48
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Not sure about the settings when using the N900 as an AP, but make sure you turn off any firewall associated filters like content filtering, stateful inspection, etc. Some of the security features might be applied on the Lan side causing some communication problems.
I have it working as an AP now. I use to (well before I had the roamio or min) had it working as a router that was connected to my other router. It had dhcp off, etc.

I was just thinking out loud that I wonder if I turned off AP mode and reset it, would things have worked.
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Old 05-06-2014, 08:04 PM   #49
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I don't know how TiVo can "not support" switches. No one in their right mind is going to use their TiVo plugged directly into their high speed modem. Of COURSE you have a switch, either embedded into your router or separate.

My assumption is that the "typical" install is a Tivo plugged in via ethernet to a router with a built in switch. Unless you have MoCa. But MoCa doesn't help you if you want to stream to your wireless device.

not supporting switches. Psh.

Incidentally, I run a netgear FVS318N router with built in switch.... works fine for in house and out of home streaming on my iphone. I only have the one tivo, so I dunno about how it would work with another tivo streaming.
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Old 05-06-2014, 08:55 PM   #50
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Just an FYI to anyone buying one of these Netgear switches. There are rebates available for purchases through June 30th. Hopefully this link to the form works.
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Old 05-06-2014, 10:00 PM   #51
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I got tired of AC adapters dying on my cheap D-link gigabit switches (would always happen while I was out of town...).

I switched all my switches over to Dell Powerconnect 2816's picked up for $79 on ebay. They are fanless, web-managed with QoS, with integrated power supplies. They have been rock solid.
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Old 05-07-2014, 05:03 AM   #52
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I don't know how TiVo can "not support" switches.
"Not support" means "won't help trouble-shoot."

This seems reasonable to me. We can't expect TiVo to help with problems that may be caused by another companies hardware.
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Old 05-07-2014, 05:36 AM   #53
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I got tired of AC adapters dying on my cheap D-link gigabit switches (would always happen while I was out of town...).

I switched all my switches over to Dell Powerconnect 2816's picked up for $79 on ebay. They are fanless, web-managed with QoS, with integrated power supplies. They have been rock solid.
I've also had good luck with the Dell 27XX and 28XX series managed switches. Currently using a 2724 in my main wiring closet, 2816 in a Home Theater, 2708 in an office. I also have a trendnet and Netgear 5 and 8 port GigE that work well, but the management features of the Dell stuff is a nice bonus for the money.
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Old 05-07-2014, 06:14 AM   #54
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I got tired of AC adapters dying on my cheap D-link gigabit switches (would always happen while I was out of town...).

I switched all my switches over to Dell Powerconnect 2816's picked up for $79 on ebay. They are fanless, web-managed with QoS, with integrated power supplies. They have been rock solid.
I've been using the Dlink GigE switches for many years. I used a dozen of the older versions years ago and I've been using fifteen of the newer versions for several years. I've never had a power supply die. Although all my switches and any other electronics are on UPSs. But in my experience Dlink has been rock solid.

Prior to the Dlinks, around eight years ago I used around half a dozen netgear GigE switches, but I switched to the Dlink. And prior to the Netgear switches I used Linksys GigE switches. So in the eleven or twele years I've used over three dozen GigE switches at home. I've yet to have a power supply die in any of them. But the Linksys switches were the worst. But that was their first model consumer GigE siwtch. And it needed a fan inside to keeps things cool so it made a bunch of noise.
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Old 05-07-2014, 06:23 AM   #55
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The issue of doing traffic profiling and prioritization is helpful on large multi node mixed IP networks that have thousands of nodes all competing for certain limits resources. A average home network with 3 TiVo's, 2 Pc's and few wireless clients doesn't fall under the category of needing such as any traffic priority established is lost once your local network data hit the single interface into your isp's Internet connection.
Yep, this is the point he's missing, or he had some really bad setup that he 'fixed' by getting new switches. Priority forwarding is irrelevant for even a cheap GigE setup in 99.99% of residential use.
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Old 05-07-2014, 08:44 AM   #56
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Yep, this is the point he's missing, or he had some really bad setup that he 'fixed' by getting new switches. Priority forwarding is irrelevant for even a cheap GigE setup in 99.99% of residential use.
I would agree, though I wouldn't go quite that far. It depends much more strongly on applications than hardware or network complexity. For instance, somebody who does a lot with P2P/torrents may have need for either priority forwarding or some other control mechanism.

I've got a more complicated home network than most (5 routers) and don't see a need for priority forwarding - I have 900 mbps throughput when and where I need it.
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Old 05-07-2014, 08:55 AM   #57
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I would agree, though I wouldn't go quite that far. It depends much more strongly on applications than hardware or network complexity. For instance, somebody who does a lot with P2P/torrents may have need for either priority forwarding or some other control mechanism.

I've got a more complicated home network than most (5 routers) and don't see a need for priority forwarding - I have 900 mbps throughput when and where I need it.
And I use one router with several APs and fifteen unmanaged switches. I can also get 900mbps+ throughput when and where I need it. The only thing slowing me down is the gigabit connections since my pc's could transfer several times faster if they weren't limited by the slower GigE connections.
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Last edited by aaronwt : 05-07-2014 at 10:21 AM.
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Old 05-07-2014, 10:31 AM   #58
nooneuknow
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Location: Cox Cable Market, NV
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DeltaOne View Post
"Not support" means "won't help trouble-shoot."

This seems reasonable to me. We can't expect TiVo to help with problems that may be caused by another companies hardware.
I tend to agree. But, the translation shouldn't be our burden. It should be given to us in the correct form. It should also be reported, exactly as we were told, when we post what we were told on here. Not all of this always happens, all of the time.

However, the support-bots at TiVo's outsourced call center are often only smart enough to repeat computer-generated responses. I have no doubt in my mind that people get told "Sorry, we don't support switches".

I also have no doubt in my mind that even if people were told "Sorry, we don't provide support for switches", those two words could go unheard, or would just not show up in what gets reported here as what they were told.

Given the kind of support consumers get these days, from nearly any company, I wouldn't be at all surprised at anything, no matter how ridiculous, that a person might be told by a support call center...
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Old 05-07-2014, 11:31 AM   #59
Ieolus
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I have my Roamio Pro attached to an Ethernet over Powerline adapter, which feeds to a gigabit switch, then into my router. My minis are connected via MoCA only.
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Old 05-07-2014, 11:38 AM   #60
nooneuknow
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I give up on trying to help when it comes to switches, when it comes to QoS/Priority matters. I'll try to make this my final post on the matter.

Focusing on quality, rather than raw speed, helped me a lot. If I had some bad setup, or bad cables, which does happen, now my networking equipment has the ability to tell me that I do (which didn't come with "cheap" low-end equipment). Even though it does have that ability, it has all been changed, or re-configured, multiple times, including ALL the cabling.

I'll point-out that I've had more equipment, than I've listed so far. I just chose to limit going back as far as my first reliable Gbit router w/wireless, which I still have, still in use.

Yes, all my networking equipment is on UPS backup. That seems to be another bragging-right amongst the "elite", so I may as well throw it out there. It seems like I burn-out more power supplies since I went this route, but I might as well brag about it...

It never ceases to amaze me, that help-oriented threads, where people are asking for help, or purchase advice, get overrun by "experts", some of which do nothing but brag about the top speeds they achieve, and how everything is on UPS backup. That's great. I could even be happy for you, if you stopped bragging long enough to say how you got there.

Such "experts" should know that speed isn't everything. VoIP is a great example of a network stream that requires very little speed (VERY, VERY, VERY, little), yet will work terribly if the latency isn't kept to a minimum.

What's VoIP have to do with anything? Besides becoming more widespread in home use, things like Netflix and other streaming services also can be disrupted by latency.

Since all the experts are here, with their perfectly distributed wired and wireless networks, limited only by industry standards, I guess there's no need for my input.

Last words on QoS/Priority are: Latency and overhead STILL MATTER. As raw speed increases, VERY often does LATENCY and overhead. Those who disagree with this should spend less time here, and go fix all the Wiki pages that say these things, and help re-draft the standards that also say so. Maybe you could also submit your network configurations as the cure to this pesky issue. Don't forget to tell speedtest.net that their pingtest.net site is irrelevent, due to raw speed. Good luck with that.

Sorry for the explosion. This is what happens when I hold-back and try to just play nice. I'm still trying to help, where I can, when I can.

I'm also so sick of there always having to be 4x more posts per thread, due to "I don't have that problem" posts. The last thing anybody looking for help wants to hear is "I don't have that problem", followed by how great everything works for somebody else. While near-perfection does spontaneously happen, it's not the normal experience for everybody. Those who didn't get it out-of-box, as-is, don't benefit from bragging rights posts.

I'm not mad at the majority of people. I'm not slinging poo, and then running away. I'll still be here to see the inevitable fallout, when I go nuclear.
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Cisco tuning adapters should never be used inline (using the TA coax OUT port) to connect a TiVo, if MoCA is in use. Use a splitter w/PoE filter on leg to TA, use other leg for the TiVo. Enjoy!
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