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Old 04-20-2014, 10:02 PM   #1
ukwildcat4life
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MoCA Networking Question

Hey everyone ; I'm fairly new to using Tivo. I have the Roamio base model and one mini. My question is related to how I have them set up to my network. My cable company just installed a new cable modem/router gateway (Arris TG862).... this gateway would be fine if it was dual band since I have a few devices that can use the 5g band such as my iPhone , android tablet, etc......I had read some bad reviews on this particular gateway's wireless coverage. So I chose to use my own high end dual band router ( apple airport extreme). I called my cable company and asked them to put my cable modem into bridge mode so that their gateway was functioning as a cable modem only and they were good about doing that for me. So right now I'm using my own router and I have one of my MoCA adapters plugged into it to create my MoCA network. I have another MoCA adapter plugged into the Roamio and the Mini just requires the coaxial cable since its MoCa ready.....everything was working fine until this morning. I turned on my Mini and there was an error message saying it had lost connection from the host DVR (Roamio) so I troubleshooted with the Roamio such as rebooting it, etc and was not able to re establish a connection to my network; keep in mind while this was going on other devices in my home were able to connect and use my network just fine. So I ended up calling a Tivo support representative and we went through a few troubleshooting steps and we were able to get the Tivo's to connect back to my network, etc.....So my question is do you think I should keep using my own router and keeping my cable companies gateway in bridge mode or do you think it would be best for me to just have my cable company take my gateway out of bridge mode and me just use it instead of my own router? Do you think my odd setup of keeping the cable companies modem in bridge mode and using my own router could be causing issues with my MoCA network? any advice would be greatly appreciated! Thanks!
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Old 04-20-2014, 10:42 PM   #2
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Were you able to figure out the cause of failure, or was it just luck that things started working again after some device reboots, etc?

It sounds like you know what you're doing. Your equipment is PROBABLY fine. My personal default opinion with moca signal issues is to consider the coax splitters first. Are any of them old, are they rated at least to 1GHz (ideally higher), is there more splitting than necessary, etc. It could be a cheap and easy fix.
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Old 04-20-2014, 10:52 PM   #3
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MoCA Networking Issue

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Originally Posted by BigJimOutlaw View Post
Were you able to figure out the cause of failure, or was it just luck that things started working again after some device reboots, etc?

It sounds like you know what you're doing. Your equipment is PROBABLY fine. My personal default opinion with moca signal issues is to consider the coax splitters first. Are any of them old, are they rated at least to 1GHz (ideally higher), is there more splitting than necessary, etc. It could be a cheap and easy fix.

Thanks for the reply BigJimOutlaw! actually things just started working on their own when the Tivo Support representative had me do a few things such as rebooting, etc...I asked him what he thought the cause was and he wasn't able to tell me. All of my equipment such as cable modem, router, MoCa adapters and cabling are all new. The Coax cabling is only a year old. I also have a POE filter installed in the cable companies box which is mounted to the outside of my house where their cable enters my home. The only thing I have not checked are the splitters; I do have the one splitter at the point of entry but I forgot to check and see what GHz it was....under my home I think there should be two more splitters because when I first had service installed a year ago all I had was internet and digital phone; then a month ago I decided to add cable tv so when the tech came out he told me he was not going to run any new coax cables and he said he would just split the main cable at my living room and my bedroom ( those are the only two rooms where I have coax installed).....from everything I have read on the internet, most people agree that its best to have the cable company put their gateway in bridge mode as I have and use your own router......I guess this whole thing is a mystery and I'm just trying to figure out possible causes.... I will check my splitters though... thanks for your input much appreciated!
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Old 04-20-2014, 11:31 PM   #4
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EDIT/ADD: In the time it took me to try and write a first reply, others stepped in, and I see your problems were resolved.

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Originally Posted by ukwildcat4life View Post
Do you think my odd setup of keeping the cable companies modem in bridge mode and using my own router could be causing issues with my MoCA network? any advice would be greatly appreciated! Thanks!
That's not an "odd setup" for me, or from what I've read elsewhere.

I always use bridge-mode to turn the lousy all-in-one CMG (Cable Modem Gateways) into "just a modem", and use a router I have the ability to fully configure, and use the firmware I want, not just what my cableco allows.

Since I use Cat5e and don't use MoCA (even though I know a great deal about it), I'll wait awhile to see if somebody helps you out, who uses MoCA.

I also don't have a clear enough picture of all your equipment, your network map, and other factors, to fully help.

If it worked before, I doubt the CMG in bridge-mode is the cause. However, I did have to reset my CMG to factory defaults once, putting it back the way it came, reboot, then re-bridge, due to a CM firmware rollout. Once I did that, my own weird problem went away, once I also rebooted everything downstream.
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Cisco tuning adapters should never be used inline (using the TA coax OUT port) to connect a TiVo, if MoCA is in use. Use a splitter w/PoE filter on leg to TA, use other leg for the TiVo. Enjoy!
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Old 04-20-2014, 11:47 PM   #5
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MoCA Networking Question

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Originally Posted by nooneuknow View Post
EDIT/ADD: In the time it took me to try and write a first reply, others stepped in, and I see your problems were resolved.



That's not an "odd setup" for me, or from what I've read elsewhere.

I always use bridge-mode to turn the lousy all-in-one CMG (Cable Modem Gateways) into "just a modem", and use a router I have the ability to fully configure, and use the firmware I want, not just what my cableco allows.

Since I use Cat5e and don't use MoCA (even though I know a great deal about it), I'll wait awhile to see if somebody helps you out, who uses MoCA.

I also don't have a clear enough picture of all your equipment, your network map, and other factors, to fully help.

If it worked before, I doubt the CMG in bridge-mode is the cause. However, I did have to reset my CMG to factory defaults once, putting it back the way it came, reboot, then re-bridge, due to a CM firmware rollout. Once I did that, my own weird problem went away, once I also rebooted everything downstream.
Thanks for the reply nooneuknow! here is some info on my network. In my bedroom I have my cable modem and router; in that room one coax cable enters from under the floor to the cable modem and another coax cable enters from under the floor to the Mini. In my living room one coax cable enters from under the floor to my Roamio ( 4 tuner base model).....in my bedroom I have an action tech MoCA adapter hooked up to my cable modem/router which creates my MoCA network......in the living room I have another action tech MoCA adapter hooked up to my Roamio ( only the plus and pro have MoCA built in)......then in my bedroom I have the Mini connected via coax cable (MoCA)....everything worked great for a week until this morning. Earlier last week when I called my cable company for an unrelated matter they told me that my cable modem gateway had received a firmware upgrade so I'm not sure if that had anything to do with it. My cable company told me that they have to put my gateway into bridge mode and that I couldn't do that myself so whenever they put my gateway into bridge mode I'm no longer able to log into their gateway's settings... I can only log in to my router (apple airport extreme) settings.......I can tell you that when I was having problems earlier I got an error code on the Roamio ( C133) and there was a message that said Tivo was experiencing a problem and that it would be fixed soon and it went on to say I could continue using my DVR to watch tv, record, etc.... my mini had an error message (V87) I think it was and it said it had lost connection from the host DVR (Roamio)....the Tivo support representative told me that sometimes their servers go down and mess things up and he kinda hinted that may have caused my problem but I'm not really sure as he also said their servers rarely go down.....the only thing I have left to check are the splitters under my house; there should be 2 of them and I plan on checking them out tomorrow....I'm hoping this issue doesn't keep happening as I really like my Tivo system but its just doing some weird things from time to time and I just want to make sure I have done everything right on my end since I'm new to Tivo... thanks again for your input and I agree with you that its best we use our own routers and that's what I plan on continuing to do.
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Old 04-21-2014, 12:10 AM   #6
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Correction...the error message on my Mini was not (V87) it was (V133) sorry for the confusion.....
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Old 04-21-2014, 12:38 AM   #7
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Originally Posted by ukwildcat4life View Post
Correction...the error message on my Mini was not (V87) it was (V133) sorry for the confusion.....
V87 and C133 are both valid errors that you might encounter. TiVo will have sections explaining each error on tivo.com, just do a search and soak it all in if you haven't done so.

You should be able to still get into your cable modem config. Try these:

192.168.100.1
192.168.1.100
192.168.0.1
192.168.1.1
192.168.1.254 or the highest last subnet the CMG DHCP server allows
192.168.0.254 or the highest last subnet the CMG DHCP server allows

You may want to eliminate the router for a bit, connect a computer directly in, and power cycle the CMG, then try these again, if at 1st you don't succeed. Don't forget to do an IP release/renew on the computer you do this with, once the CMG is up.

The manufacturer's website should disclose the native IP of your CMG, along with the default login & password. You can also check for the IP assigned to your cable modem (wan-side) and try that address.

You should always be able to see your own CM or CMG local user screens, at minimum, to see your signal readings. Most cablecos, AFAIK, allow access to the local admin screens (you'd be the first I'd know of to be unable to access anything, and be unable to change some of your own config).

I'll try to dig in some more, while you check into these things. Feel free to post your status (don't wait for me).
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Cisco tuning adapters should never be used inline (using the TA coax OUT port) to connect a TiVo, if MoCA is in use. Use a splitter w/PoE filter on leg to TA, use other leg for the TiVo. Enjoy!
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Old 04-21-2014, 01:17 AM   #8
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Thanks for the advice and input! I tried all of those login addresses that you gave me and the only one that works is 192.168.0.1 My CMG came with a paper with instructions on how to access the gateway's interface and that is the address it gave...However when I try to login it won't let me; the paper that came with the CMG also gave me the default password and login and I used those and it would not let me in.....before I had the cable company put the CMG into bridge mode I was able to enter the settings but I ask them earlier tonight would I be able to with the CMG in bridge mode and the guy told me no.......I did research the error codes and it appears as though that same thing has happened to lots of people and it seems as though there is a server down on Tivo's end ( which is what the Tivo Customer Representative told me).... I just think its odd that going into the network settings and doing a few things and then reconnecting to the Tivo Service and then rebooting my Mini fixed everything...don't get me wrong I'm glad everything was fixed but not really knowing the real cause just kinda makes me think it will probably happen again in the future and if it does I guess I can just do what I did tonight to try and fix it..... so why do you suggest me unplugging my router and using the CMG ? thanks!
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Old 04-21-2014, 05:45 PM   #9
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Sorry,

I laid back for a moment to rest my eyes and fell asleep.

I guess that particular CMG doesn't allow you to log in in bridge mode. Since you can't see what your own levels are, or what is going on with it, you have to call the cableco and just take their word it is all set correctly and all working correctly. I think that's BS, that you should have to do that.

Most of what I posted was just trying to get you into the CMG menus to see it all with your own eyes, so I could have you post some details, and I was going to look up anything else to help get you access. I was saying to bypass the router and plug a single computer into the CMG to try and get you in, just in case the router was somehow stopping you.

Unless there was something going on that only affected you, and nobody else, things just don't add up. If everything just keeps working, that's great.

Unless you bought the CMG, you are paying a monthly fee to lease (rent) the CMG. My cableco charges a higher amount for a CMG, instead of just a CM. I opted to buy my own CM (which has paid for itself).

That is something to consider, as any future issues can leave you wondering what's going on, and taking your cableco's word for how well things are working.

None of this has much to do with MoCA. I just wanted to make sure it even was MoCA-related, before doing all the MoCA troubleshooting.
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Cisco tuning adapters should never be used inline (using the TA coax OUT port) to connect a TiVo, if MoCA is in use. Use a splitter w/PoE filter on leg to TA, use other leg for the TiVo. Enjoy!
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Old 04-21-2014, 11:54 PM   #10
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Hey bud no problem on the late reply! I appreciate all the advice you have given me. Although I'm new to Tivo and the community I have read a few of your posts on other threads and no doubt you're very knowledgeable and know your stuff.....I'm a pretty tech savy guy on some things but MoCA is something new to me so I'm still learning and reading what others put on these forums have helped me a great deal. Well I totally agree that is BS that my cable company somehow stops us from logging into the CMG settings once its put into bridge mode. Another thing I don't like about my cable company is that they will not allow their customers to buy and use their own cable modems.....by federal law they had to provide me with a cable card for the Tivo but I called and asked them a few times if I could buy and use my own cable modem and got a big No both times! I live in a rural area and we only have one cable company in my area and they pretty much have a monopoly on everything unless I had stayed with DirecTV but in order for me to get local channels, etc and to cut down on costs I had to go with the cable company. So far after I got my Tivo system back up and running Sunday evening all has been well since so I am hoping it was just a one time ordeal....I am, however, going to go under my house in a few days and check the splitter to make sure they are at least 2GHZ I think most on here said would work best? Again thanks a lot for your help and I'm sure this won't be the last time I ever have to reach out to the Tivo community for some help.....
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Old 04-22-2014, 01:14 AM   #11
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No problem...

While 2GHz splitters are nice, MoCA signals are at a much stronger signal level than everything else, which allows them to "punch" through nearly any splitter, no matter what it is rated (unless low quality/damaged/defective).

Make sure your splitters are at least 1GHz rated, and make sure you have a MoCA PoE filter at your actual single cable-in point. You can also place them anyplace you don't need the MoCA signal to be going to (isolate it to just go where it needs to go, nothing more). Those filters are really the only things that will stop and reflect the signals back (increasing the reliability and performance of MoCA).

2GHz splitters can help, sometimes. But, many are made for satellite and don't go down low enough for cable systems (make sure they they go as low as 5MHz).

Splitters rated for the full 5-1000MHz range are just fine, as long as they are quality product, and none of that RadioShack, Gemeni, or store-brand junk. Even the 1GHz ones can be pricey, 2GHz more so. That's why I always raid the cableco trucks and stock up on what they have on-truck.

If the splitters are subject to moisture, they can corrode. I've found ones that look OK outside, but have been corroded internally. The other big thing is making sure you have no open/unused ports, or using terminators to cap them off to prevent signal ingress/egress. Terminators are cheap, and can often be bought in packs. If you have any unterminated ports, anywhere, terminating them could be the cheapest thing, with the biggest improvement.

Also, make sure you are using RG6 and not the thinner RG59 cables, for everything. Any good cable will say what it is on the outside.
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Cisco tuning adapters should never be used inline (using the TA coax OUT port) to connect a TiVo, if MoCA is in use. Use a splitter w/PoE filter on leg to TA, use other leg for the TiVo. Enjoy!
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Old 04-22-2014, 01:27 AM   #12
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Thanks for the info bud....I did install a POE filter where my cable enters my home so I think I got that one covered.... I will definitely take a good look at the splitters the cable company used under my house and if they're not in that range that you spoke of I will try and see if I can get some... I will also take a look and make sure I don't have any open ports and if I do I will buy some terminators..... I haven't even checked to see what type of cable my cable company used so I will take a look at that as well and make sure its RG6.....thanks again!
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Old 04-22-2014, 01:30 AM   #13
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I'm confused on one thing...should I get splitters that are GHZ or MHZ?
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Old 04-22-2014, 02:31 AM   #14
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I'm confused on one thing...should I get splitters that are GHZ or MHZ?
1Ghz = 1000MHz

Some are labeled 5-1000MHz, while another brand may be labeled 5MHz-1GHz.

I've even seen some with the upper rating stated 1002MHz (which is just a marketing gimmick).

You said "tech savvy", so I didn't include that.

The terminators should be "75 Ohm". If you have any open ports, make sure to terminate them (it's that important). If your TiVo DVR Diagnostics screen is showing signal levels less than 80 on most channels, you can use a splitter with less ports and skip the terminator. Just beware that you keep the signal from getting too high (pegged at 100 all the time).

The less ports a splitter has, the stronger any signals will be coming out. It's usually -3.5bB per port for a two way, -7dB for a 4-way, and the 3-way splitters can be "balanced" -5.5dB, or "unbalanced" with one -3.5dB port and two -7dB ports. These are all not counting the "in" port.

The usual use for unbalanced splitters is for a long cable run, while the other two are short runs, or many will put their cable modem on the -3.5 port, to give the CM a stronger signal.

I really wish I knew what your CMG readings were. If your cable company says "OK", that only means it isn't way high or way low, most of the time.

You can daisy-chain splitters, and add the -dB values to know how much drop there theoretically should be (not counting cable-length drop).

Your cableco should really be doing this, if they aren't going to let you read your own CM values. If you use the same dB in the same places, things should be OK. But, you'll have to call and ask how your CM readings look (stupid, cableco!).

I'm just worried that if things are working, you could make them not work.

Splitters with higher max ratings shouldn't change signal strength (much), and new ones with the same -dB out ratings in the same places, might increase levels some. You may want to just start out making sure there are no dead-end (unterminated) coax runs, unterminated unused splitter ports, and no loose connections.

If you have an unused cable run occupying a port, either get a "barrel" for a wallplate to gender-change the end for a terminator, or disconnect it from the splitter and put the terminator there (better, if you don't plan to use that run). If you do have runs to wallplates, make sure you find them all, and terminate the ends of any you don't use.

I wish I could come up with a "good" way to "sabotage" your cable in a way that would make it the cableco's problem to come out, fix, and use their own parts... Good companies will check the signal levels and signal quality at all endpoints before they leave... Really good ones don't charge for the trip/service. I can call mine at any time and ask them to come check my levels/quality, no charge. I doubt yours is one of the "good ones"...
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Cisco tuning adapters should never be used inline (using the TA coax OUT port) to connect a TiVo, if MoCA is in use. Use a splitter w/PoE filter on leg to TA, use other leg for the TiVo. Enjoy!
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Old 04-23-2014, 12:05 AM   #15
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Hey nooneuknow: sorry for the late reply! I had subscribed for email updates on this thread but never received one and just happen to take a look and saw your reply....well I thought I was tech savy until I read your last suggestions, lol....apparently there is a lot I don't know....but you've given me a lot of insight on some things I had wondered about. For example I was wondering how one would know how their networks signal strength was and where to look for it and now you answered that; so are you saying my signal strength on the diagnostics screen should show 80 and above to be in an acceptable range for MoCA? I will definitely be looking for unused ports, etc when I inspect everything under my house. I have to admit I don't really know much about splitters and thanks for the input and for clarifying a lot of things for me. Now I know what to look for! Thanks again for your help!
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Old 04-23-2014, 02:04 AM   #16
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Hey nooneuknow: sorry for the late reply! I had subscribed for email updates on this thread but never received one and just happen to take a look and saw your reply....well I thought I was tech savy until I read your last suggestions, lol....apparently there is a lot I don't know....but you've given me a lot of insight on some things I had wondered about. For example I was wondering how one would know how their networks signal strength was and where to look for it and now you answered that; so are you saying my signal strength on the diagnostics screen should show 80 and above to be in an acceptable range for MoCA? I will definitely be looking for unused ports, etc when I inspect everything under my house. I have to admit I don't really know much about splitters and thanks for the input and for clarifying a lot of things for me. Now I know what to look for! Thanks again for your help!
There should be someplace you can get a read on the MoCA. I was just giving you ways to try and not knock your CM and TV signals out of the ranges they are in, since you seem to not be having any issues with those areas.

I'm not using MoCA. I'm using Cat 5e for everything. My base-model Roamios don't support MoCA, so I can't just dig up a menu selection that you have and I don't.

TiVo's support section, on their website, should have some fairly decent guides specific to the MoCA signal levels on your TiVos. If you are using any non-TiVo MoCA adapters in the mix, check their respective websites for getting a read on things.

Like I said before, and maybe a couple times since then: If everything is working fine for you now, it may be best to just leave things be.

It took a long time for me to be able to go around and get all my signals just-right, and balanced, in my house, and that's just for the CM, TiVos, and TVs. You can't even read what a change does to your CM, from what you told me, and that's always the first signal I start with... You should at least take a look at the signal strength and SNR readings on the DVR Diagnostics screen, before changing anything. Make sure you check the readings for a good range of channels, over a good range of low and high frequencies, on multiple tuners. I don't even have that baseline to work with at this point, to help in your quest to make sure your MoCA is all good...
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Cisco tuning adapters should never be used inline (using the TA coax OUT port) to connect a TiVo, if MoCA is in use. Use a splitter w/PoE filter on leg to TA, use other leg for the TiVo. Enjoy!
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