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Old 06-09-2014, 01:19 PM   #1
jay_winter
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Where The Hell Is Hdmi-cec?!

It's 2014, and HDMI 1.4 is old news. So why are new TiVo Premiere and Roamio owners stuck without any CEC controls??
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Old 06-09-2014, 01:46 PM   #2
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I am not sure how HDMI-CEC would work with TiVo since we don't power it on and off like the connected TV and AVR. I may be missing something and I do have a display, Blu-ray, media players and AVR with HDMI-CEC but I can't see how it would even work with TiVo.
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Old 06-09-2014, 04:23 PM   #3
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CEC is mostly a gimmick. The volume can just as easily be adjusted via a universal remote, which is what TiVo does. And as Chris pointed out TiVo has no on/off, so I'm not sure when TiVo would use the input command. Most of the other CEC features seem to be based around someone watching live TV through their TVs tuner and sending commands to other devices in the chain, which doesn't really gel with TiVo's intended use.
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Old 06-09-2014, 04:32 PM   #4
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There are four reasons I can think of only putting a couple minutes into it:
1. When you have a smart tv and want to use the arc channel for the built in apps, you have to turn on cec to turn on arc (at least with my LG, and ive seen other complaints with other brands). Every single time I power on my tv, it thinks there isn't anything on the input that my Roamio is plugged into on my receiver because Tivo does not support CEC, so it flips to the "tv" (ARC) choice on my receiver and then shows me a "no signal, pick an input" screen. So then I have to wait about 5 seconds after everything powers up, (because it will fight me and keep flipping it back to tv), pick up the crap Pioneer remote and hit 'Video 1" button. Convenience! All it would have to do is like respond that it's there/powered on.

2. If the tv is off, then the Tivo Premieres/Roamios could ignore emergency broadcasts, like when Tivos are on standby. (Or even just go into standby to save the 1w or whatever it saves, and come back out of standby upon power-up of the display)

3. No more worrying about Minis holding tuners after you're done watching. If the tv is turned off, then the mini should drop a tuner if its holding and even go on standby, if it even saves anything on a mini lol <shrug>.

4. When you fling videos to apps, netflix or youtube on your Tivo, your tv could switch to to the input which the tivo is connected to. (like Chromecast does)
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Old 06-09-2014, 05:11 PM   #5
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#1 sounds more like a handshake issue then a CEC issue

#2 & #3 don't require CEC, the HDMI connection can tell if it's active or not already.

#4 I could see being useful
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Old 06-18-2014, 01:08 PM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dan203 View Post
The volume can just as easily be adjusted via a universal remote, which is what TiVo does.
The IP remotes (ipad, iphone, android, network remote) can't control volume nor input, but if Tivo added CEC support, then they could.

Quote:
And as Chris pointed out TiVo has no on/off, so I'm not sure when TiVo would use the input command.
Standby is close enough. It could request Input when coming out of Standby. And then combine that with telling it to standby when the input is switched off.

Or it can be One Touch Playback, when starting a program from Ios or maybe pressing LiveTV from an Ir remote.
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Old 06-18-2014, 01:33 PM   #7
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I have never gotten CEC to work with my Onkyo AVR and my Mits TV.

If I got CEC working would it only give me volume control - which is on the AVR and a no brainer? How about powering off/on the TV?
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Old 06-19-2014, 07:19 PM   #8
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I have never gotten CEC to work with my Onkyo AVR and my Mits TV.

If I got CEC working would it only give me volume control - which is on the AVR and a no brainer? How about powering off/on the TV?
I think nobody knows off hand. There's a number of CEC features, but they came out slowly over time, and each manufacturer can choose a different subset to support.

You would have to take the model number of each device, and look up how much support it has, perhaps in the manual or marketing page. Then you have to match up the 2 devices's support to see if it's suppose to work. So given that, you might be better off asking in an AV forum for the devices you have.

Here are the trade names to get anyone started:
Samsung - Anynet+
Sony - BRAVIA Link or BRAVIA Sync
Sharp - Aquos Link
Hitachi - HDMI-CEC
AOC - E-link
Pioneer - Kuro Link
Toshiba - Regza Link or CE-Link
Onkyo - RIHD (Remote Interactive over HDMI)
LG - SimpLink
Panasonic - VIERA Link or HDAVI Control or EZ-Sync
Philips - EasyLink
Mitsubishi - NetCommand for HDMI
Runco International - RuncoLink

But yes, Volume and Power On are defined CEC features, so some models out there are suppose to do what you asked for.
http://www.hdmi.org/ces2008/presenta...implayLabs.pdf
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Old 06-20-2014, 08:59 AM   #9
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This isn't about what Tivo can DO with the CEC control functions -- Its about Tivo responding to your HDTV with the proper logical and physical HDMI addresses so that your HDTV does not tell your HDMI receiver to switch to a different input for TV audio. This happens now because your "smart" HDTV isn't aware that a Tivo box is connected to the active HDMI input to your "smart" AV receiver. So, when you power up the TV, the TV tells the AVR to switch to the "TV" input -- instead of the HDMI input the Tivo was already connected to..

This is the root of most of the AVR communication issues you see listed in this thread. Tivo is aware of it and yet has decided to ignore it -- even in their most recent products!
In other words, while all of your other equipment is CEC-aware, Tivo is CEC-deaf-and-dumb! Is this a problem that a universal remote cannot solve? Of course not! But the whole reason for implementing CEC controls in the first place is to eliminate the need for multiple remotes. If your Tivo can turn the TV on and off -- that is all the remote control you should need to turn your entire system on and off without losing its previous configuration --AND control the system volume.

Ahh, but there is hope for a 3rd-party fix! A little company in the UK named PulseEight has developed a remarkable little HDMI adapter aimed at the HTPC market to make HTPCs CEC-capable. This does not address the set-top box market yet, but when I inquired about it, the response I received is that they will in fact have such a product offering later this year!

For more information, look here: http://www.pulse-eight.com/store/pro...c-adapter.aspx
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Old 06-20-2014, 02:30 PM   #10
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Quote:
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I am not sure how HDMI-CEC would work with TiVo since we don't power it on and off like the connected TV and AVR. I may be missing something and I do have a display, Blu-ray, media players and AVR with HDMI-CEC but I can't see how it would even work with TiVo.
It works with a DirecTV DVR that never really gets turned "off" either. In DirecTV's case when the DVR sees the "off" command it shuts off the HDMI output. Since the Roamios (at least) process EVERY remote command, they could know when you turn the TV on or off (with the TiVo remote) and turn the HDMI on and off as well.

Not to mention that, as jay_winter references above, a lot of TVs will interrogate all the HDMI devices attached to compliant receiver and populate their input menu with entries that not only select the receiver but also select the correct input on the receiver.
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Old 06-20-2014, 04:21 PM   #11
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This isn't about what Tivo can DO with the CEC control functions -- Its about Tivo responding to your HDTV with the proper logical and physical HDMI addresses so that your HDTV does not tell your HDMI receiver to switch to a different input for TV audio. This happens now because your "smart" HDTV isn't aware that a Tivo box is connected to the active HDMI input to your "smart" AV receiver. So, when you power up the TV, the TV tells the AVR to switch to the "TV" input -- instead of the HDMI input the Tivo was already connected to..
I'm confused.

The CEC main device (TV) is suppose to fallback and track all HDMI devices, even the non CEC enabled. If it does something illogical with something non-CEC, that sounds like the TV or receiver's fault. (new aware devices should be designed to work well with old non-aware devices)

If your receiver is switching to the TV input, shouldn't you move the Tivo to that input? (Or is that a non-HDMI input?)
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Old 06-20-2014, 04:40 PM   #12
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All this stuff is designed around the premiss that you're watching live TV through the TVs tuner. That's why it sucks so bad. I tried CEC on my TV for controlling my AV receiver's volume. There was a serious lag and they would become out of sync so that the volume level listed on the TV was inconsistent. It was a huge PITA so I turned it off.
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Old 06-20-2014, 04:45 PM   #13
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The IP remotes (ipad, iphone, android, network remote) can't control volume nor input, but if Tivo added CEC support, then they could.
I guess if you really like using your phone as a remote that could be useful. Seems like a lot of engineering effort for something very few people would use though.

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Standby is close enough. It could request Input when coming out of Standby. And then combine that with telling it to standby when the input is switched off.
As long as it can be turned off. I have multiple TiVos connected to the same AV receiver, I don't want them going to sleep every time I switch between them or it turning the receiver back on if I accidentally hit the TiVo button on the wrong remote.

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Or it can be One Touch Playback, when starting a program from Ios or maybe pressing LiveTV from an Ir remote.
This is similar to the option mentioned above that would switch inputs if you launch Netflix, etc... via DIAL. This I could see being useful.
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Old 06-20-2014, 06:48 PM   #14
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Possible HDMI-CEC undesired operation fix.

I stumbled across something I had never seen before the other day, while checking a link somebody posted for HDMI equipment.

A specifically non HDMI-CEC HDMI cable. It deliberately was made with the CEC signalling wire left out (or perhaps just not connected to the end pins).

It sounds like the perfect solution for some of what I read here, if I'm understanding correctly.

I'll be back to edit and post a link if I can find that cable's source again. I know I checked monoprice, and they didn't have any such product. I was shocked that monoprice didn't have any. I think I went there looking for a lower price.

Feel free to help-out and post links to anyplace you are aware of selling them, or that you find sells them. Having a choice of more than one seller is always a good thing.
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Old 06-21-2014, 09:00 AM   #15
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Pulse eight had one:
http://www.pulse-eight.com/store/pro...dmi-cable.aspx
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Old 06-22-2014, 04:15 AM   #16
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That's actually the website I found it on, thanks to another member who had recommended another product from the same site.
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Old 06-23-2014, 09:01 AM   #17
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Thanks NOONEUKNOW!

The "non-CEC" HDMI cable is a VERY interesting idea! Thanks for the tip, but beware that this cable is only about 10 inches long and may require an HDMI extension to work.
Please let us know if this works for you!
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Old 06-23-2014, 09:03 AM   #18
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Quote:
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All this stuff is designed around the premiss that you're watching live TV through the TVs tuner. That's why it sucks so bad. I tried CEC on my TV for controlling my AV receiver's volume. There was a serious lag and they would become out of sync so that the volume level listed on the TV was inconsistent. It was a huge PITA so I turned it off.
Wrong -- It assumes that your TV is the main HDMI device and that you wish to use the TV remote for on/off/volume control of the entire system -- whether or not you are using the TV tuner.
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Old 06-23-2014, 09:12 AM   #19
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I'm confused.

The CEC main device (TV) is suppose to fallback and track all HDMI devices, even the non CEC enabled. If it does something illogical with something non-CEC, that sounds like the TV or receiver's fault. (new aware devices should be designed to work well with old non-aware devices)

If your receiver is switching to the TV input, shouldn't you move the Tivo to that input? (Or is that a non-HDMI input?)
The TiVo does not implement the CEC handshake with the controller (TV) so the TV does not know that the receiver has a live data feed and instructs the receiver to "connect the TV input". In my case -- and most of the instances I have read from other users-- the Tivo IS, in fact, connected through an HDMI input to the receiver, but the receiver defaults to another audio (optical/digital) input as the "TV" input. Relabeling this input doesn't help -- or isn't an option because usually the HDMI inputs cannot be chosen as the "TV" audio input. This is because most HDTVs, by their nature, don't have a dedicated HDMI "output" port -- only an optical or analog one.
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Old 06-23-2014, 09:23 AM   #20
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All this stuff is designed around the premiss that you're watching live TV through the TVs tuner. That's why it sucks so bad. I tried CEC on my TV for controlling my AV receiver's volume. There was a serious lag and they would become out of sync so that the volume level listed on the TV was inconsistent. It was a huge PITA so I turned it off.
Both the TV and the receiver must implement HDMI version 1.4, and CEC-control must be an available option and enabled on both devices for on/off/volume control to work correctly. Also, some recent-model HDTVs have a hard-to-find "Home Theater" configuration setting that redirects sound to the receiver.
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Old 06-23-2014, 07:40 PM   #21
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Both the TV and the receiver must implement HDMI version 1.4, and CEC-control must be an available option and enabled on both devices for on/off/volume control to work correctly. Also, some recent-model HDTVs have a hard-to-find "Home Theater" configuration setting that redirects sound to the receiver.
The only HDMI "1.4" devices I own are WDTV Live Hubs, Chromecasts, and a couple HDMI switches (2 out of 4). Even before I owned those (and presently), none of my TVs were anything greater that v1.3 (the TVs being early 1.x, with one w/1.3x that had ARC, which supposedly was a 1.4 option). I use all 1.3x cables, but have two 1.4 ones.

All of the TVs, none being 1.4, have the HDMI-CEC (under their own brand label of it). It also worked fine, until I upgraded to Roamios from Premieres and TiVo HDs. Then, I was getting blasted by audio squelches, and/or loud busts of audi static, with every resolution change, change of input (to or from a Roamio), and more. I had to disable it on everything due to whatever about the Roamio is different in the HDMI. I've also found that using the Roamios (direct in to TVs) on non-ARC HDMI inputs (my TVs that support it only do on port #1), eliminates the near deafening audio squelching/static. Better results overall by both not using the ARC supporting inputs and disabling HDMI-CEC.

The closest thing I have to receivers are that some of my TVs have outputs allowing me to add external amplified speakers, use them in conjunction with the built-in ones, and get "poor man's surround". If I only use the built-in speakers, the squelching/audio static bursts go-away.

The take-away point for all this is that you don't need HDMI 1.4 to have and use HDMI-CEC (as you declared) and ARC. Both of these seem to be a problem for the Roamio (in my experience). It's also worth noting the Roamio is not HDMI 1.4.
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Old 06-24-2014, 02:25 PM   #22
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The only HDMI "1.4" devices I own are WDTV Live Hubs, Chromecasts, and a couple HDMI switches (2 out of 4). Even before I owned those (and presently), none of my TVs were anything greater that v1.3 (the TVs being early 1.x, with one w/1.3x that had ARC, which supposedly was a 1.4 option). I use all 1.3x cables, but have two 1.4 ones.

All of the TVs, none being 1.4, have the HDMI-CEC (under their own brand label of it). It also worked fine, until I upgraded to Roamios from Premieres and TiVo HDs. Then, I was getting blasted by audio squelches, and/or loud busts of audi static, with every resolution change, change of input (to or from a Roamio), and more. I had to disable it on everything due to whatever about the Roamio is different in the HDMI. I've also found that using the Roamios (direct in to TVs) on non-ARC HDMI inputs (my TVs that support it only do on port #1), eliminates the near deafening audio squelching/static. Better results overall by both not using the ARC supporting inputs and disabling HDMI-CEC.

The closest thing I have to receivers are that some of my TVs have outputs allowing me to add external amplified speakers, use them in conjunction with the built-in ones, and get "poor man's surround". If I only use the built-in speakers, the squelching/audio static bursts go-away.

The take-away point for all this is that you don't need HDMI 1.4 to have and use HDMI-CEC (as you declared) and ARC. Both of these seem to be a problem for the Roamio (in my experience). It's also worth noting the Roamio is not HDMI 1.4.
Ah, you are indeed correct -- please pardon my aforementioned declaration! ARC and CEC are necessarily included with HDMI 1.4, but they are not PREcluded from HDMI 1.3 devices which may implement either or both of these features. All that aside, it sounds like your particular problems with the Roamios was related specifically to ARC. Since my Tivos are both Premier 4's, I have not experienced similar issues. However, it does sound like maybe the "non-CEC" HDMI cable might just what the Roamio needs.
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Old 06-24-2014, 08:10 PM   #23
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Both the TV and the receiver must implement HDMI version 1.4, and CEC-control must be an available option and enabled on both devices for on/off/volume control to work correctly. Also, some recent-model HDTVs have a hard-to-find "Home Theater" configuration setting that redirects sound to the receiver.
Both of my devices do (Samsung TV and Onkyo receiver, both less then 2 years old). It still doesn't work well. Even using the ARC for playing the audio from the smart TV apps through the receiver is hit and miss. I usually have to turn off the receiver, and sometimes the TV, to get them to sync up.

It just seems like an immature technology, with spotty support, that doesn't really benefit TiVo users that much.
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Old 06-25-2014, 08:30 AM   #24
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Both of my devices do (Samsung TV and Onkyo receiver, both less then 2 years old). It still doesn't work well. Even using the ARC for playing the audio from the smart TV apps through the receiver is hit and miss. I usually have to turn off the receiver, and sometimes the TV, to get them to sync up.

It just seems like an immature technology, with spotty support, that doesn't really benefit TiVo users that much.
Dan,
I'm sorry to hear that you haven't had better luck with CEC, but the tone of your comments is, I think, inappropriately dismissive. This is, after all, the "Suggestions" forum, and I started this thread to bring up an issue that many of us home theater equipment users are frustrated with and would like to at least identify the reasons for -- if not find a solution.

My primary point is that Tivo does not implement CEC control protocol in ANY model, and that's problem I want Tivo to acknowledge and address. You may think it's all just useless gimmickry, but that gimmickry is desirable to some of us automation nerds, and we want to see it succeed.
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Old 06-25-2014, 09:35 AM   #25
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Even a $50 Roku has rudimentary CEC support. We have a old Samsung DLP hooked up to a Pioneer A/V receiver and the Playstation 3 and 4, the Roku and the DirecTV Genie show up as inputs on the TV input menu and the Pioneer automatically switches inputs when we select one. Everything works fine...except the Roamio. That requires us to select the HDMI input on the TV, and then select the correct source on the Pioneer (which means we need both the TiVo remote and the Pioneer remote, or a universal remote and IR repeaters to get the signals inside the cabinet).

This is not rocket science...simply acknowledging CEC polling requests would be a step in the right direction.
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Old 06-25-2014, 06:58 PM   #26
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Dan,
I'm sorry to hear that you haven't had better luck with CEC, but the tone of your comments is, I think, inappropriately dismissive. This is, after all, the "Suggestions" forum, and I started this thread to bring up an issue that many of us home theater equipment users are frustrated with and would like to at least identify the reasons for -- if not find a solution.

My primary point is that Tivo does not implement CEC control protocol in ANY model, and that's problem I want Tivo to acknowledge and address. You may think it's all just useless gimmickry, but that gimmickry is desirable to some of us automation nerds, and we want to see it succeed.
The reason I'm dismissive is because from TiVo's perspective CEC makes very little sense. Power, volume and input can all be controlled from the remote via IR which is much more widely supported and more reliable then CEC. (the Xbox One also uses IR over CEC for the same reasons)

The other big features people mentioned were automatically putting the TiVo into standby when the TV is turned off, which can be done without CEC, and switching the input to TiVo when something is flung via DIAL. The second one is not a bad suggestion but in most cases people use their TiVo as their primary viewing device and will most likely already be on the right input, so not really necessary. And if they're not on the right input there is a button on the remote for that. (see above )

CEC seems cool on paper, but in reality it would provide very little value to a TiVo owner other then the fringe use case of using your phone as a remote control. I'd rather they spend development effort on fixing bugs or adding more main stream apps.

I'm curious... what exactly do you envision CEC doing for you that can't already be done?
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Old 06-30-2014, 11:32 AM   #27
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The reason I'm dismissive is because from TiVo's perspective CEC makes very little sense. Power, volume and input can all be controlled from the remote via IR which is much more widely supported and more reliable then CEC. (the Xbox One also uses IR over CEC for the same reasons)

The other big features people mentioned were automatically putting the TiVo into standby when the TV is turned off, which can be done without CEC, and switching the input to TiVo when something is flung via DIAL. The second one is not a bad suggestion but in most cases people use their TiVo as their primary viewing device and will most likely already be on the right input, so not really necessary. And if they're not on the right input there is a button on the remote for that. (see above )

CEC seems cool on paper, but in reality it would provide very little value to a TiVo owner other then the fringe use case of using your phone as a remote control. I'd rather they spend development effort on fixing bugs or adding more main stream apps.

I'm curious... what exactly do you envision CEC doing for you that can't already be done?
I don't think you've been paying attention, because everything you asked has been answered already several times here.
So, if you don't have anything positive to contribute, perhaps you should not concern yourself with this issue.
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Old 11-16-2014, 10:50 PM   #28
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I don't think you've been paying attention, because everything you asked has been answered already several times here.
So, if you don't have anything positive to contribute, perhaps you should not concern yourself with this issue.
I know this thread has been dead for several months but I just got a TIVO and the lack of HDMI-CEC support really sucks. All my other devices support it. When off and set to pass through the only way my AV receiver can change inputs is via CEC otherwise one needs to power up the receiver and switch inputs to SAT/CABLE in order to get TIVO again. Likewise all the other devices (Blu ray, PS4) switch inputs no problem. The only issue is getting back to the TIVO after.

its not a problem for me really since I know whats going on but it is an issue for others in the family.

I have a harmony universal remote as well but the problem is that my setup uses ARC for the smart tv apps.

Everything works great; the only thing is input switching with TIVO..

I realize TIVO doesnt go on or off but to at least have the TIVO send out a signal on CEC saying it became active when the TIVO is given any command would be more useful than the invisibility TIVO has right now.
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Old 11-16-2014, 11:39 PM   #29
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Has CEC ever come up in those secret surveys they send out?
I'm not sure who I'm asking, just throwing it out into the ether. hypothetically.
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Old 11-17-2014, 02:27 AM   #30
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Has CEC ever come up in those secret surveys they send out?
I'm not sure who I'm asking, just throwing it out into the ether. hypothetically.
I've never received a survey; however, after I saw your post I did a google search and I found this: research.tivo.com/suggestions/

I made a suggestion regarding HDMI CEC and linked to this thread.. I can't believe that in this day and age they still dont support this standard. it can't do any harm if they allow you to enable/disable it via the menu like most devices.
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