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Old 04-13-2014, 09:58 PM   #1
Anubys
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Game of Thrones "The Lion and the Rose" 4/13/14 S4E2

YES!

Joy and happiness. Best wedding EVER.

Mellisandre's curse is going strong. Robb, now Joffrey. Greyjoy is next.

I don't get how Tyrion can be accused of this murder. He didn't want to be the cup bearer. It's a big stretch to blame this on him.

Who is next in line? Joffrey's little brother?
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Old 04-13-2014, 10:02 PM   #2
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I got the episode title wrong. It should be "The Lion and the Rose". I've asked the moderators to help change it. Sorry about that!
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Old 04-13-2014, 10:05 PM   #3
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Great episode. Was there a single conversation that didn't have a dozen political implications or undertones? I love Lady Olenna more every time she opens her mouth.

BTW, I think the episode was called "The Lion and The Rose".

ETA: Or what Anubys said while I was typing...
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Old 04-13-2014, 10:07 PM   #4
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Who is next in line? Joffrey's little brother?
Yeah, Tommen. I think that was him sitting at the next table. Blonde, teen, innocent looking. I think the last time we even saw him he was a kid.
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Old 04-13-2014, 10:20 PM   #5
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I'm a little disappointed that we never saw a real Tywin-Joffrey showdown.
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Old 04-13-2014, 10:21 PM   #6
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Words of advice: If your aspiration is to be king, don't marry Margaery. Because that never ends well.

It looked like for a moment Joffrey might be a little redeemed, when he got the book from Tyrion. Well, not REdeemed, since he was a useless waste of oxygen since birth. But it looked like he might be a little deemed, with his relatively gracious acceptance of a gift that he clearly disdained.

But then he undeemed himself with the sword.
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Old 04-13-2014, 10:21 PM   #7
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Yeah, Tommen. I think that was him sitting at the next table. Blonde, teen, innocent looking. I think the last time we even saw him he was a kid.
And, according to Tyrion, Tommen and Myrcella are fine children, unlike their insane older brother.
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Old 04-13-2014, 10:26 PM   #8
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I wanted still more by the time the credits came on. That 60 minutes just flew by.
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Old 04-13-2014, 10:51 PM   #9
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That made me so very happy!
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Old 04-13-2014, 11:11 PM   #10
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It was only about 53 minutes long I think. I was bummed we didn't get our last 7 minutes! Still they pushed things along pretty well on a number of fronts. We book readers have been waiting for this one . Still so much more to happen this season... yikes!
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Old 04-13-2014, 11:17 PM   #11
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I don't get how Tyrion can be accused of this murder. He didn't want to be the cup bearer. It's a big stretch to blame this on him.
I'm sure Cersei would say it was a crime of opportunity. Tyrion must have had the poison on him and when Joffrey kept goading him and the opportunity presented itself, Tyrion took the opportunity.

Of course, anyone smarter than Cersei would realize that Tyrion is much too clever to commit murder in such a way that he is so obviously the prime suspect.
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Old 04-13-2014, 11:37 PM   #12
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OK, now it is time for an episode of CSI:Westeros

We all know Tyrion is too smart to have done it.
I don't think the Tyrells would do it (although Joffrey's glass was on their table when it got poisoned -- assuming the poison was in the wine) at least not before Margery was pregnant.
Prince Oberon of Dorne is a thought, if you assume Joffrey wasn't the target.
Brianne, as payback for killing Catelyn?

One more thing, after Joffrery hacked the pie there was a cut of a dead bird, presumably one killed by Joffrey's sword when "opening" the pie, what if it was just an accident (or divine retribution from the Red God)

Oh yeah and "Ding Dong the Asshat's dead"!!
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Old 04-13-2014, 11:43 PM   #13
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Maybe it was the fat jester? He didn't seem that shocked and seemed to have an exit plan.
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Old 04-13-2014, 11:53 PM   #14
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Old 04-13-2014, 11:56 PM   #15
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OK, now it is time for an episode of CSI:Westeros

We all know Tyrion is too smart to have done it.
I don't think the Tyrells would do it (although Joffrey's glass was on their table when it got poisoned -- assuming the poison was in the wine) at least not before Margery was pregnant.
Prince Oberon of Dorne is a thought, if you assume Joffrey wasn't the target.
Brianne, as payback for killing Catelyn?

One more thing, after Joffrery hacked the pie there was a cut of a dead bird, presumably one killed by Joffrey's sword when "opening" the pie, what if it was just an accident (or divine retribution from the Red God)

Oh yeah and "Ding Dong the Asshat's dead"!!
Yeah, there had to be reason why the camera paused on the dead dove, but it looked chopped, not poisoned.

The word is that the clues to whodunit were there.

Sansa picked up the cup from under the table! But neither of them could have planned it because they didn't know that Jeffy was going to make Tyrion handle the cup.

Pycelle is the poison Maester and Cercie dissed him.

Where was Tywin through all of this?

I liked the effect of Jeffy's face getting all veiny. And he sang the end credits?
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Old 04-14-2014, 01:48 AM   #16
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Wow, had no idea Joffrey was going to be dying so soon. As much as I hated him, that caught me so much by surprise that it wasn't even satisfying.
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Old 04-14-2014, 01:54 AM   #17
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Words of advice: If your aspiration is to be king, don't marry Margaery. Because that never ends well.
I think the rule of thumb in Westeros should be to not get married in general. Which wedding have we seen that has ended well?

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I'm sure Cersei would say it was a crime of opportunity. Tyrion must have had the poison on him and when Joffrey kept goading him and the opportunity presented itself, Tyrion took the opportunity.

Of course, anyone smarter than Cersei would realize that Tyrion is much too clever to commit murder in such a way that he is so obviously the prime suspect.
I think Cersei is the only one who truly cares about finding Joffrey's murderer. Everyone else has go through the painful motions of pretending to want "justice for the king".

I guess Tyrion cares insofar as he is a suspect, but hopefully you are right that others will realize that there's no way he would have been so stupid as to kill Joffrey in such an obvious manner.

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I don't think the Tyrells would do it (although Joffrey's glass was on their table when it got poisoned -- assuming the poison was in the wine) at least not before Margery was pregnant.
I doubt Margaery would have been a part of it, but I do wonder about her grandmother. She came to some arrangement with Tywin that resulted in him pushing Cersei to marry Loras. What if part of the arrangement was to work together to take out Joffrey?

What if the grandmother actually cared more about Margaery than power? (I know, I know. Such people are rare in Westeros. ) Or at least, was willing to sacrifice Margaery's position as Queen for the position that Loras would have with Cersei. With Joffrey dead, his younger brother is now king. But who is once again Queen Regent? I'm assuming Cersei...who is now promised to be wed to Loras.

(Oh wow, I just had a strange thought. Cersei ordered Maester Pycelle to feed the leftovers to the dogs. My thought when seeing that scene was that she was merely making a power play to let Margaery know who was really in charge. But what if she knew she wasn't going to lose her Queen Regent status? Could Cersei hate Tyrion so much that she would sacrifice Joffrey to frame him for murder? Or perhaps she merely loves power that much, and figured Joffrey was a lost cause with Margaery. Given her comments about her love for her children, I'm not so sure. But what if she took Tyrion's comment to heart that she got 2 out of 3 right?)

Tywin would, of course, be glad not to have a Tyrell as Queen, plus the added benefit of not having to clean up Joffrey's messes.

I also wonder if any of those awkward looks from people while Joffrey was tormenting Tyrion were not because of what Joffrey was doing, but because they knew what was going to happen, and did not intend for Tyrion to be implicated. If it was someone who considered him an ally, that person might be in the awkward position of having to redirect suspicion from Tyrion without implicating him or herself.

It will be interesting to see how many people use Joffrey's death as a excuse for their own personal gain under the guise of caring about who killed him. I suspect this investigation will set the record for most number of people who care about it for reasons other than actually finding real answers.
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Old 04-14-2014, 02:09 AM   #18
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GRRM gets to write one episode per season, and this was his offering for S4. Surprised there wasn't any nudity.

Based on the way the camera lingered on the dead bird in the "pie," I have to believe it was the pie that was poisoned and not the wine. But did anyone else take a bite of the pie?
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Old 04-14-2014, 02:11 AM   #19
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Wow, had no idea Joffrey was going to be dying so soon. As much as I hated him, that caught me so much by surprise that it wasn't even satisfying.
Yeah, I was hoping Arya would get the pleasure. She better hurry up, and get her mad assassin skillz before anyone else from her list goes. The rest of them aren't what one would consider to be spring chickens.
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Old 04-14-2014, 02:11 AM   #20
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I doubt Margaery would have been a part of it, but I do wonder about her grandmother. She came to some arrangement with Tywin that resulted in him pushing Cersei to marry Lawrence. What if part of the arrangement was to work together to take out Joffrey?

What if the grandmother actually cared more about Margaery than power? (I know, I know. Such people are rare in Westeros. ) Or at least, was willing to sacrifice Margaery's position as Queen for the position that Lawrence would have with Cersei. With Joffrey dead, his younger brother is now king. But who is once again Queen Regent? I'm assuming Cersei...who is now promised to be wed to Lawrence.
His name is Loras.
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Old 04-14-2014, 02:20 AM   #21
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His name is Loras.
Ah, okay. I've correct his name in my post.

I did Google it, but didn't look too deeply for fear of running across spoilers. I guess what Google was showing me was that others had made the same mistake.
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Old 04-14-2014, 04:34 AM   #22
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Joffrey may be dead but I still want to punch him in the face.

I hope the Theon/Ramsay Snow subplot has a significant reason for being. Those scenes so uncomfortable and so disconnected that I'm tempted to ffwd through them.
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Old 04-14-2014, 05:36 AM   #23
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I thought it was funny that right after the scene with the Boltons and Theon, they cutaway to Tyrion and Jaimie being served sausages.
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Old 04-14-2014, 06:06 AM   #24
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My wife doesn't really watch the show, but has kind of absorbed it via osmosis by being around most of the time I have it on. About halfway through the wedding, she looks up from her kindle and makes a comment about how awful Joffrey is and that "he needs to go". I was able to hold my tongue the few minutes necessary for the payoff.
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Old 04-14-2014, 07:01 AM   #25
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Joffrey's wedding will get the meat of the discussion today (which is fine, since it got the meat of the show last night), but anyone have thoughts on Bran's vision? There were a couple of interesting shots in it.
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Old 04-14-2014, 07:02 AM   #26
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I think Oberon or Tywin. Although Margaery's grandmother to save Margaery is an interesting theory.

While watching the dwarf entertainment and before Joffrey started picking on Tyrion, I was thinking wouldn't it be neat if (the already steaming) Sansa strolled over and stuck a knife in Joffrey.
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Old 04-14-2014, 07:09 AM   #27
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Joffrey's wedding will get the meat of the discussion today (which is fine, since it got the meat of the show last night), but anyone have thoughts on Bran's vision? There were a couple of interesting shots in it.

What are your thoughts? I didn't notice anything interesting.
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Old 04-14-2014, 07:14 AM   #28
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It never occurred to me it would be anyone but the fool. Now, he may have been working under someone's orders, but it seemed clear to me that he knew what was going to happen before it happened.

Which also explains the necklace giveaway (which Sansa was wearing, btw).

Margery was wearing a pretty unremarkable necklace given how much her grandmother fussed over the choice!
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Old 04-14-2014, 07:18 AM   #29
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What are your thoughts? I didn't notice anything interesting.
There were two things that stuck out. Both are what I think future visions. One showed the Iron throne, in its hall with the roof missing and snow falling inside.

The other showed King's Landing, sunny and warm, with a dragon's shadow flying across the city.

Is this two possible futures, it one the future and one is the past? If it is two possible futures, does that suggest Bran is meant to play a role in deciding what happens with the White Walkers? Who was the voice Bran heard talking to him?

All good stuff. Great episode.
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Old 04-14-2014, 07:20 AM   #30
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the voice said to go north, I think. Which is a little vague since that was the direction they were heading anyway. But then Bran woke up and said he knew where to go. This was absolutely a scene I made a mental note to go back and rewatch carefully.
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