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Old 03-04-2015, 09:28 PM   #1
astrohip
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Caption problem on 20.4.6 (verifiable)

20.4.6 has introduced a problem with the display of closed captions. The captions are disappearing quicker than they should. They appear on time, but in the case of a long sentence (ex: a three line caption), by the time the speaker gets halfway thru, the captions go away. They should stay up until the speaker finishes talking. It doesn't always do it, but it does it a lot of the time.

I started noticing this about a week or two ago, but at first didn't give it much thought. Then I realized it was happening far too often. I tested it by watching the same show on a 20.4.5 Premiere. The captions stay up as they should. I actually noted on which word they disappeared, and on the Premiere it was perfect, on both my Roamios, the captions blank out too fast.

Testing: I have recorded the same show on three units, an Elite, a Roamio basic recording OTA, and a Roamio Pro. On tonight's Criminal Minds, the two Roamios both exhibited this problem. The Elite did not. I then streamed the Elite's recording to the other two, and it happens. I then streamed the Roamio's recording to the Elite, and it did not happen. Bottom line: It doesn't matter where or who recorded it, OTA or antenna, playing on a Roamio causes it, but not the Premiere. Only difference: 20.4.6

It also happens on multiple networks. I haven't tested that many, but CBS & FX (Justified last night) both have it. And I believe it is significant that both antenna & cable have it; this eliminates Comcast as a problem.

I am very attuned to how captions work and display, as I am a 100% caption viewer. This is very disconcerting, and distracts from watching TV. I will file a complaint with TiVo, but want to post here too, to see if others notice this.

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Old 03-04-2015, 09:38 PM   #2
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20.4.6 has introduced a problem with the display of closed captions. The captions are disappearing quicker than they should. They appear on time, but in the case of a long sentence (ex: a three line caption), by the time the speaker gets halfway thru, the captions go away. They should stay up until the speaker finishes talking. It doesn't always do it, but it does it a lot of the time.

I started noticing this about a week or two ago, but at first didn't give it much thought. Then I realized it was happening far too often. I tested it by watching the same show on a 20.4.5 Premiere. The captions stay up as they should. I actually noted on which word they disappeared, and on the Premiere it was perfect, on both my Roamios, the captions blank out too fast.

Testing: I have recorded the same show on three units, an Elite, a Roamio basic recording OTA, and a Roamio Pro. On tonight's Criminal Minds, the two Roamios both exhibited this problem. The Elite did not. I then streamed the Elite's recording to the other two, and it happens. I then streamed the Roamio's recording to the Elite, and it did not happen. Bottom line: It doesn't matter where or who recorded it, OTA or antenna, playing on a Roamio causes it, but not the Premiere. Only difference: 20.4.6

It also happens on multiple networks. I haven't tested that many, but CBS & FX (Justified last night) both have it. And I believe it is significant that both antenna & cable have it; this eliminates Comcast as a problem.

I am very attuned to how captions work and display, as I am a 100% caption viewer. This is very disconcerting, and distracts from watching TV. I will file a complaint with TiVo, but want to post here too, to see if others notice this.
I use captions on movies so if I miss a word I can look at the caption, now many times I have to back up to catch that word, never though about this before because I don't need the captions except for movies that have a lot of THX 5.1 sound that sometimes covers up the words more than my ears can handle.

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Old 03-04-2015, 09:51 PM   #3
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Noticed the same thing yesterday as to captions disappearing too quickly (and my having to go back to re-read them, to get everything), and even looked in the cc settings to see if there is a setting to have the captions stay up longer (there isn't). But as I'm new to the Roamio, I assumed that this just is how things are. Good to hear it may be a bug, and so can be altered.

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Old 03-04-2015, 11:05 PM   #4
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Noticed the same thing yesterday as to captions disappearing too quickly (and my having to go back to re-read them, to get everything), and even looked in the cc settings to see if there is a setting to have the captions stay up longer (there isn't). But as I'm new to the Roamio, I assumed that this just is how things are. Good to hear it may be a bug, and so can be altered.
I went to the settings also, thinking maybe somehow, with the .6 update, that digital captions were turned on (digicaps wreak havoc on the display), but all was normal.

I'm confident TiVo will fix this; captions are too big a deal, and TiVo has always put a priority on captions.

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Old 03-04-2015, 11:22 PM   #5
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Oh good, I'm not imagining it! I use captions about 10% of the time, and the other day had to use slow-mo to be able to read it - the caption was more like flashing on the screen than even staying for half a sentence.

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Old 03-05-2015, 12:55 AM   #6
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Someone who uses captions most of the time should report this to TiVo.

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Old 03-05-2015, 01:03 AM   #7
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I'm confident TiVo will fix this; captions are too big a deal, and TiVo has always put a priority on captions.
I wouldn't say captions are high priority for them. There's a long standing bug where transferring recordings back to TiVo in PS container (even unmodified .TiVo files) loses captions. It's been reported for years yet TiVo has ignored the problem. Workaround is to transfer back in TS container.

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Old 03-05-2015, 04:11 AM   #8
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I've been experiencing intermittent closed caption issues since .5 release. I was hopeful they would be addressed with .6 but, alas no. I don't experience problems with live viewing, just with recorded. Captions will disappear completely, especially and mostly if I pause the show and resume. The only way to re-enable them is to back out of the recording and resume. All too often, they will disappear again if I pause the show. This happens on any and every channel. In particular, the Smithsonian channel will display no captions at all at times or a jumbled word salad....but not on every show. History channel can be hinky from time to time. All settings are as the should be.

I have reported this to TiVo several times and they have no clue. No clue as to why generic repeats are recorded as new either. Both issues are "sent up the ladder" but so far no joy. It must be a very tall ladder.

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Old 03-05-2015, 06:10 AM   #9
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Originally Posted by astrohip View Post
20.4.6 has introduced a problem with the display of closed captions. The captions are disappearing quicker than they should.
I've noticed that here too. Hope TiVo fixes it in the next update.

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Old 03-05-2015, 07:35 AM   #10
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Someone who uses captions most of the time should report this to TiVo.
I have already sent Margret some info, and I will call TiVo today.


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I've been experiencing intermittent closed caption issues since .5 release.<snip>
Different issue. What you are experiencing, while frustrating, is not the norm. Most of us don't see that, or the phones would be ringing off the walls. This issue with .6 is repeatable and consistent.

You have dbl checked that digital captions are OFF?

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Old 03-05-2015, 09:57 AM   #11
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I have already sent Margret some info, and I will call TiVo today.
Thanks for reporting this I have the same problem since the last update.

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Old 03-05-2015, 12:21 PM   #12
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Thanks for alerting me to this issue. We will look into it right away.

--Margret

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Old 03-05-2015, 01:34 PM   #13
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Thanks for alerting me to this issue. We will look into it right away.

--Margret
This is excellent news. Until I saw this thread, I thought perhaps it was just me. Way to go, Margret!

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Old 03-05-2015, 03:13 PM   #14
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Thanks for alerting me to this issue. We will look into it right away.

--Margret
Thank you. Greatly appreciated!

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Old 03-05-2015, 03:41 PM   #15
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20.4.6 has introduced a problem with the display of closed captions. The captions are disappearing quicker than they should. ...
Thanks for doing the investigation on this. I noticed the problem as well, but I did not figure out it was 20.4.6 related, I thought it was something with the recordings.

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Old 03-05-2015, 04:12 PM   #16
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Different issue. What you are experiencing, while frustrating, is not the norm. Most of us don't see that, or the phones would be ringing off the walls. This issue with .6 is repeatable and consistent.

You have dbl checked that digital captions are OFF?[/QUOTE]

Digital captions are and always have been off. Although not identical to what you are experiencing, the issue still involves disappearing captions. That this occurs only with recorded shows and after coming out of pause, is, indeed, frustrating. So too, is the periodic word salad on Smithsonian.

I only bring it up here in the context of disappearing captions to see if anyone else has experienced anything similar in addition to (or in lieu of) the issue you describe. Perhaps they are related, perhaps not. Since both involve disappearing captions (whether intermittent or consistent), I thought it would be worth throwing it into the mix to see if anyone else has experienced it.

It took me awhile to actually recognize the problem existed and narrow it down to only recorded shows and only when coming out of pause. I would be surprised if I am the only one experiencing this particular caption issue. It's a sneaky one.

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Old 03-05-2015, 04:30 PM   #17
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I noticed this, but since I don't use captions a lot I thought it was just something odd with one of the networks.

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Old 03-05-2015, 05:55 PM   #18
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I'd been wondering if Charter was doing something to the captions. (They regularly mangle captions on certain channels that they recompress, e.g., Showtime.) But this timing thing wasn't the sort of problem they normally have.

Looks like a TiVo problem. Which means it's much more likely to get fixed.

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Old 03-05-2015, 11:04 PM   #19
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Good detective work... I was about to say I have seen this before (and I have), so it _CAN_ be caused by the actual captions (i.e. THEY clear too early), but you showed that in this case it is the Roamio somehow.

(I wished that the transition to digital would fix the sometimes-garbled captions issue, but it didn't.. I'm glad I don't have to rely on the captions, but I leave them on the majority of the time.)

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Old 03-05-2015, 11:38 PM   #20
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Good detective work... I was about to say I have seen this before (and I have), so it _CAN_ be caused by the actual captions (i.e. THEY clear too early), but you showed that in this case it is the Roamio somehow.
Thanks. Yeah, I've seen this on rare occasion (early caption clearing) in the past, but never like this. Thus, the detective work.

Another thing I'm seeing, but I haven't been able to pin it down yet. On a very few shows, I'm seeing captions that don't scroll properly. So far, it's been live shows that caption live on the scroll. Usually the only problem with live programs is the captioning is late (due to live transcribing). But I'm getting where lines disappear, then the next line is position one, then 3, then 2, yada yada. Plus words missing. NBC Evening News is the worst culprit. But I haven't done enough research to determine if it happens to other shows with any regularity.

Thinking as I'm typing this, it's possible the early-disappearing problem, combined with live captioning, is creating a hybrid monster? OTOH, since it doesn't happen ALL the time, I can't yet call it a verifiable bug.

Sadly, my old days as a coder force me to spend far too much time chasing down bugs.. It's like some kind of OCD disease.

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Old 03-06-2015, 12:39 AM   #21
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Great detective work--thanks. TiVo should provide a bounty for identifications such as this--TiVo-person pillows, perhaps?

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Old 03-06-2015, 08:59 AM   #22
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Great detective work--thanks. TiVo should provide a bounty for identifications such as this--TiVo-person pillows, perhaps?
Margret... still reading this thread?

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Old 03-06-2015, 10:01 AM   #23
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They should really make a better effort in getting people from here involved in beta testing.

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Old 03-06-2015, 11:25 AM   #24
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They should really make a better effort in getting people from here involved in beta testing.
You don't think people on this forum are involved in beta testing?

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Old 03-06-2015, 11:35 AM   #25
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Thanks for alerting me to this issue. We will look into it right away.

--Margret
Thank you!

And thanks to astrohip for nailing down the specifics of this issue. I'd seen it in action, but didn't realize it was broken.

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Old 03-06-2015, 12:22 PM   #26
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They should really make a better effort in getting people from here involved in beta testing.
Once they stopped letting anybody who upgraded the drive in their TiVo into the beta program, I think TiVo lost a lot of good beta feedback,

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Old 03-06-2015, 10:19 PM   #27
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Same here I have caption issue after .6 update. I used slow-motion button to slow the caption unfortunately it was too quick and garbled. I called Tivo support about it so they said that there are some bugs in software. I asked them to downgrade to .5 but they can't do it. I can't bear watching show with crappy caption!

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Old 03-06-2015, 11:25 PM   #28
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Same here I have caption issue after .6 update. I used slow-motion button to slow the caption unfortunately it was too quick and garbled. I called Tivo support about it so they said that there are some bugs in software. I asked them to downgrade to .5 but they can't do it. I can't bear watching show with crappy caption!
Same here. It's amazing how far we've come. From no captions a couple decades ago, to a lot but not everywhere, to captions on almost everything. I realize there are laws that require it, but I still feel lucky they exist.

Having said that... it *is* irritating when they don't work right. Hopefully this is a quick fix, and they can slipstream an update to us.

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Old 03-09-2015, 09:04 PM   #29
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For those of you experiencing this issue, would you please try the following and let me know if the problem goes away:

In Settings > Displays > Closed Captioning,
set "Standard Captions" to "None" and
set "Digital Captions" to "DTVCC1"

Thanks,
--Margret

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Old 03-09-2015, 09:14 PM   #30
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For those of you experiencing this issue, would you please try the following and let me know if the problem goes away:

In Settings > Displays > Closed Captioning,
set "Standard Captions" to "None" and
set "Digital Captions" to "DTVCC1"

Thanks,
--Margret
Problem with that is historically digital captions have been very unreliable. In fact, common wisdom in the forums is to do exactly the opposite - digital captions off and standard captions on. I'll give digital a shot tonight just to evaluate this issue.

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