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Old 02-10-2014, 01:09 AM   #1
Nak
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Is Tivo actually trying to lose customers?

Is Tivo just trying to piss off long time fans???

First we had the problem with playing MP3s. Originally they played fine. But then some update screwed it up and now the vast majority of users have problems with MP3s advancing from one song to the next. Tivo is aware of the problem and has never bothered to fix it, even though they still advertise Tivo's ability to play music--including MP3s. And of course, every time I call Tivo support they claim this is the first time Tivo support has ever heard about this--even though I myself have called about it many times as have many people I know.

Then we had the Stream and Android. Don't get me wrong, it was just good sense to do IOS first. (I'm an Android user...) But the Tivo CEO did an interview shortly after Stream came out and promised Stream for Android very shortly. That was a year and a half ago.

Now we have Pandora. A lot of us used and loved this app. Now, it's no longer available unless you use HD menus. For many Tivo users who are very happy with the SD menus--and despise the HD menus--this is just a slap in the face. And the new app is nowhere near as good as the old app.

If you like the HD menus, that's great. Tivo gives you the option to use either HD or SD menus. That's what Tivo should be about, giving the user the best experience possible. With the latest update though, you're stuck with HD menus if you want to use Pandora. For me, and many others, the HD menus are not intuitive and annoying. For everyone, they are a lot slower than SD menus. There is nothing about the HD menus I like, and a lot I don't like. Before, that was fine, I just used the SD menus. Tivo was fast, intuitive, friendly. I would never have bought three Tivos with lifetime service if I knew I would be stuck with these horrible HD menus.

I've had a Tivo from very near the beginning. I've been a huge fan and recommended Tivo to everyone I know. Now, I tell people to stay away from Tivo. Tivo has lied to me, Tivo has failed to even try to fix MP3 problems, Tivo has continually degraded my experience over the years. Yes, I have HD recording now. So does Comcast. Yes I have Pandora. So does many other devices. In the past Tivo just did everything better than everyone else. Now, they seem determined to do it worse.

I've been a huge fan for years. I put up with losing MP3 playback and seeing Tivo still advertise it. I was still a fan. I put up with the CEO lying about Android stream support. I was still a fan. Pandora is the last straw. I am no longer a fan. If I didn't have lifetime service, I'd dump Tivo today.

Tivo, if you want to get back a lot of fans you are losing, fix these problems. If you can't fix MP3 playback, just say so and stop advertising local music file playback. If you can't implement Stream for Android, just say so. Apologize for promising it "shortly" when clearly you could not deliver. And for God's sake, give us back the old Pandora app, or at least let us access Pandora via the SD menus.

Tivo, try being Tivo again.
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Old 02-10-2014, 05:01 AM   #2
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Complain to Pandora, they made the app and shut down the old version, not TiVo. With The new way apps are created, hopefully they will continue to update it and add whatever features/functionality you feel the new version is lacking.

I thank Tivo for continuing to expand its capabilities so that we have more modern, current versions of apps and the infrastructure for more apps to be able to be hopefully quickly ported over, instead of dying/fading out on the niche/dead adobe flash platform, and rewarded them by purchasing a Roamio.

It could be argued that getting rid of SD IS giving people the best experience possible. Adding apps/features/functionality and ensuring that they run in both environments greatly increases cost, software overhead, time to build/test and odds of problems/bugs and put huge limits UI design.

Keeping the SD screens around makes it look not high-tech, up-to-date, sexy, whichever way you want to say it. Just look at the comments from folks about the few remaining SD screens.

I had forgotten you can play mp3's. I cant even remember how! lol Don't recall it being discussed on here, either. Ok, share it through TiVo desktop. Wow, looks like a dvd player from 10 years ago. I don't doubt its quirky, I only tested it for about 40 minutes. Hopefully they'll replace that with something more functional in HD soon, or maybe with a more functional full blown app at some point.

Compare TiVo's to say, phones. Premiere platform is almost four years old. A four year old phone is ancient. Full price of a new phone is 500-700 and you have to pay for service, so theres a lot of parallels. Most Android phones get a few (or only one or two) OS updates and then get abandoned. Tivo on the other hand, continues to update the Premiere's software with all of the latest features of the new line.

Ive had a stream, Ipad and Android phone so I understand your frustration in that area. The android app has always been a step or two behind. Obviously, they bit off more than they can chew and there are tech issues with the protocol being supported by older versions of Android

The old Pandora should still be on series 3's? Maybe that's your solution. SD menus, old Pandora, no need to worry about anything changing.
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Old 02-10-2014, 05:44 AM   #3
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We had Tivos from the old Dtivo series 1 days and mostly only used them for time shifting TV shows, I did use pytivo for playing local music & videos and still have Galleon running on a Raspberry pi feeding traffic cams to our Tivo that we some time use but for Pandora and all other streaming we now use the Roku, heck we now even have a Roku channel for the same traffic cams as on the Tivo. Tivo and Roku make a very good pair, but Roku keeps getting better for me, unfortunately, Roku can not time shift TV shows yet. With all the channels on Roku, having a dvr service is becoming less important for me, if Comcast would add a Roku channel for it's customers with all the latest shows on demand, I would not even need a dvr. In the early days Tivo was the only way to go, but times change.

I do keep a set top HD media player and file server for my personal collection of Blu-Ray backups. I am pretty happy with our HD Tivo, but not sure if we will replace it when it dies, whereas every TV in the house has a Roku, and ability to stream our local content. I don't get angry with Tivo, it still does everything I purchased it to do, and having used Tivo for over a decade it may be hard to adjust to not hearing the beeps whenever selecting channels while watching regular tv.

On edit: I forgot, the Raspbberry Pi that runs galleon server for our Tivo is also a mp3 player that plays music 24/7 and I feed that to my A/V receiver along with the CCTV signal from our security cameras so when we are not watching TV the music plays 24/7 , and if we have the TV on we can see the various video cameras. It plays whatever mp3s are on the USB drive I insert. It's not a pretty setup programming wise but works 24/7 and doesn't crash.

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Old 02-10-2014, 10:23 AM   #4
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But then some update screwed it up and now the vast majority of users have problems with MP3s advancing from one song to the next.
Citation? I doubt the majority of Tivo users make use of this. Don't just assume that TCF (or any discussion forum on any topic) is a representative sample of the masses.
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Old 02-10-2014, 03:53 PM   #5
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I use Pandora a lot, but since I skipped right over the Premiere and use it on my S3, iPad, and now Roamio, I had no idea ... So, there are workarounds. S3s are great!

I didn't know there was anyone else who doesn't like the current interface, but I'm someone who always prefers choices and simplicity. I hate the Discovery Bar because it takes up so much real estate and isn't something I use at all. If there was a choice to delete that, and have Tivo Central use the space, I'd be really happy. But, I have vision issues which complicate things. I'll be keeping my S3 to more easily see recordings on my Roamio - kludgy, but it's the best workaround for me. The highlight on a program makes the text not readable for me, so I have to scroll up or down away from it to read it. Yeah - I miss the old interface, but what can I do? It works for nearly everyone else.

Still love Tivo!
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Old 02-10-2014, 08:31 PM   #6
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MP3 Playback. It really doesn't matter if you yourself use it or not. The fact is that Tivo is still advertising that the Tivo will stream the music on your PC. Tivo advertises their box as a home media system, and they specifically include your music collection on your PC. They advertise it, they sell you software they claim will stream music, but the Tivo has been incapable of streaming your own music collection for years. Yes, not many people use this feature anymore, because it is broken. It used to be the best way to play your music collection, now that feature doesn't work. So, why are they still advertising that feature? Hmmm?
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Listen to the music library on your PC—on your TV’s sound system.
Your own music library. You no longer need headphones to enjoy your computer's personal music library. With TiVo Desktop software it's simple to stream the tunes you love the most on your TV or home entertainment system. Rock on.
I just copied that quote five minutes ago from the Tivo website.

Back when Tivo actually streamed music properly, it was a major selling point. I recommended the Tivo with that feature being a major selling point. Lot's of folks bought a lifetime Tivo with personal music playback being a major factor in their decision. Many of those are no longer Tivo users, in large part due to Tivo's inability to stream local music properly. That's business that Tivo has lost for want of a simple fix.

Like I said, if you like the HD menus that's great. I, and everyone I know, despise them. If you prefer form over function--and there is nothing wrong with that--the HD menus are great. For those of us that just want to get to content simply and intuitively the HD menus are a significant downgrade. There's nothing wrong with the SD menus as far as resolution either. I have a 138" screen and the SD menus look just fine even on that screen size. Even if the HD menus were lightning fast, I still wouldn't like them. I don't need all the extra material on the screen. I much prefer to just get to the content I want with a minimum of fuss. Again, everybody I know prefers the SD menus. I'm not saying that Tivo shouldn't have HD menus, obviously lots of users like them. As long as I--and people like me--can use the SD menus then everyone is happy. What's wrong with that?

Yes, the Pandora app is written by Pandora. How it is accessed is all Tivo. To suggest that anyone other than Tivo took had a hand in the decision to remove it from the SD menus is ludicrous.

BTW, my statements are based on personal experience and the experience of dozens of friends and family that are now, or used to be--Tivo users. I may be an advanced user, but most I know aren't. I won't claim my feelings are the majority consensus. However, since dozens of people I know agree with my position--and no one I know doesn't--it's fairly likely that there are many others with similar viewpoints. Even if we are just a substantial minority, the impact on Tivo's bottom line will be significant. There's no reason to irritate any current users over these issues. Fixing the issues wouldn't hurt anyone.

1. The Stream: Apologize for the CEO's promise from 1-1/2 years ago concerning Android and stream. I wonder how many Android users bought a Stream based on the CEO's promise? More than a few. Allow Android users to return their useless stream for a full refund.

2. Fix MP3 playback. It used to work fine. There's no reason it can't be fixed. If they can't--or won't--fix it, then STOP advertising this capability.

3. Pandora. Put access back in the SD menus. Obviously a simple fix.

I understand being a Tivo fan. I was too just a few weeks ago. But seriously, can anyone really argue that it's smart--or fair--to shrink the pool of Tivo fans by failing to deliver on promises, by false advertising, by degrading the Tivo experience for some users for absolutely no benefit to anyone else?

I understand that some will be unhappy with change in certain areas, and that many others will appreciate that same change. That's not the point. Taking Pandora out of the SD menus did not help anyone, it only hurt those that prefer the SD menus. Falsely advertising local music streaming helps nobody. It only irritates and offends those that want to use that feature. Making a mistake when promising future upgrades happens. But if it does, then apologize and make it right with those that spent money based on that promise.

Tivo used to be very user-centric. These issues show a disturbing trend away from that.
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Old 02-10-2014, 08:47 PM   #7
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First we had the problem with playing MP3s. Originally they played fine. But then some update screwed it up and now the vast majority of users have problems with MP3s advancing from one song to the next.
That bug's been there for years and years. They haven't touched the MP3 player code in ages. If you reboot the TiVo, it will fix it. If you can avoid trick play of the MP3s (skipping tracks, etc.), it tends to remain stable. It's also sometimes possible to get it working properly again without rebooting, but I haven't completely figured out what's needed for that.
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Old 02-10-2014, 08:59 PM   #8
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I love my TiVos but admit there are many problems with them, and TiVo doesn't seem to want to fix them. I just ignore the problems.
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Old 02-10-2014, 09:38 PM   #9
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Then just switch to a better DVR platform if you don't like TiVo... that's right, there is no better platform. I'd add their disgusting patent psudo-trolling to the list of bad things, even though it's not directly related to the product, it just shows a low level of morality at a corporate level.
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Old 02-10-2014, 10:32 PM   #10
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I'm not defending them, but *AS WELL AS* calling them, write up bugs at forum.tivo.com too.. They seem to be a BIT more responsive there (though I admit I have to add some more info about a few of the issues I'm seeing with the iPad app still happening)..
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Old 02-11-2014, 12:54 PM   #11
Nak
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That bug's been there for years and years. They haven't touched the MP3 player code in ages. If you reboot the TiVo, it will fix it. If you can avoid trick play of the MP3s (skipping tracks, etc.), it tends to remain stable. It's also sometimes possible to get it working properly again without rebooting, but I haven't completely figured out what's needed for that.
Absolutely it's been years, I was just listing the straws that broke the camel's back. It's been years since Local music playbck has been broken, it's been years since Tivo knew it was broken, and yet they still advertise it as a feature. Agreed, if you don't do anything like fast forward, rewind, skip back, skip forward, then it seems to play OK for a while. But I think that those simple functions are widely regarded as integral to music playback these days.

It's actually fairly stupid from a business point of view. For years Tivo has known that local music playback is broken, and yet they continue to advertise that feature. It's pretty amazing that one of the class action attorneys hasn't noticed this yet. However, it is inevitable that one will and Tivo has zero legal leg to stand on. It is a certainty that the settlement will be far, far, in excess of the cost to fix the code. Potentially many millions of dollars. I'm not a litigious guy, and I won't be the one starting this, but some Tivo owner will. There are significant financial benefits for both the first person to bring the flaw to an attorney and to the attorneys who start the class action suit.
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Old 02-11-2014, 04:04 PM   #12
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Claiming the HD menus are "slower" than the SD menus for "all users" is gibberish. They are not, actually, slower in many setups since the hardware has advanced since 2000.
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Old 02-11-2014, 07:33 PM   #13
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...didn't even know I could stream MP3s from my computer...huh...
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Old 02-11-2014, 09:22 PM   #14
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Claiming the HD menus are "slower" than the SD menus for "all users" is gibberish. They are not, actually, slower in many setups since the hardware has advanced since 2000.
The HD menus are in fact slower on every Tivo made. That's simple fact. More pixels and more data takes time to process. On a Premiere--hardly circa 2000--the HD menus are significantly slower. I have not tried a Roamio, so I have no idea if the HD menus are significantly slower on those. I'm not claiming or suggesting you shouldn't like the HD menus. Personal preference is all that matters with any entertainment. If you like the HD menus that's great. I'm not even hinting that there is anything wrong with that. But the simple fact is that more than a few users do not like the HD menus for several different reasons. I, my friends, my family and my wife despise them. That is our preference as is liking the HD menus yours. You seem offended that I don't share your preferences???

It is also simple fact that allowing access to Pandora through the SD menus would have zero impact on you using the HD menus. I can understand that you don't care, since you like the HD menus. What you should care about is that negative impact to Tivo's bottom line risks the value of your lifetime subscription. If Tivo is driven out of business by a class action lawsuit, your lifetime subscription will be worthless.
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Old 02-11-2014, 10:04 PM   #15
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The HD menus are in fact slower on every Tivo made.
You're misinterpreting the statement (I think). My claim, and I think the other poster's claim, is that the Roamio HDUI is faster than the SDUI on models like the Nightlight Series 2. I recently decommisioned my last of those, and it was slow! Changing channels was slow, communication with other TiVos was ridiculously slow, Season Pass Management was ridiculously slow.
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Old 02-11-2014, 10:23 PM   #16
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...didn't even know I could stream MP3s from my computer...huh...
What's an MP3????
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Old 02-11-2014, 10:44 PM   #17
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You're misinterpreting the statement (I think). My claim, and I think the other poster's claim, is that the Roamio HDUI is faster than the SDUI on models like the Nightlight Series 2. I recently decommisioned my last of those, and it was slow! Changing channels was slow, communication with other TiVos was ridiculously slow, Season Pass Management was ridiculously slow.
With current software sure. I just got rid of a Series 2 that had no software updates in many years. (I didn't allow it access to the internet, but because of the lifetime subscription it made an excellent local music streamer. I used the original backup Hard drive to get back to a state that actually streamed correctly. It finally died. ) Anyways, it was plenty fast through all the menus. Much, much faster than my premiere is with HD menus. Yes, my Series 2 that got updates slowed way down. I'm sure that Tivo didn't intentionally send updates that would slow the Series 2 down.
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Old 02-11-2014, 11:16 PM   #18
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Please stop with the class action nonsense. The MP3 player is neglected and broken, yes; but nevertheless, it does actually work, even if it doesn't work as well as we'd want it to. There's no false advertising there.
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Old 02-12-2014, 01:01 AM   #19
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I'll respectfully disagree with your assertion that local music playback works, but I completely agree that more than enough has been said on the subject. Rant over.

BTW, thanks for all of your work for the community. It is much appreciated.
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Old 02-12-2014, 09:06 AM   #20
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It is also simple fact that allowing access to Pandora through the SD menus would have zero impact on you using the HD menus,
How do you know this? Pandora owns their own app, so they must have had some reason for making it HD only. Have you reached out to them?
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Old 02-12-2014, 02:59 PM   #21
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The HD menus are in fact slower on every Tivo made. That's simple fact. More pixels and more data takes time to process. On a Premiere--hardly circa 2000--the HD menus are significantly slower. I have not tried a Roamio, so I have no idea if the HD menus are significantly slower on those. I'm not claiming or suggesting you shouldn't like the HD menus. Personal preference is all that matters with any entertainment. If you like the HD menus that's great. I'm not even hinting that there is anything wrong with that. But the simple fact is that more than a few users do not like the HD menus for several different reasons. I, my friends, my family and my wife despise them. That is our preference as is liking the HD menus yours. You seem offended that I don't share your preferences???

It is also simple fact that allowing access to Pandora through the SD menus would have zero impact on you using the HD menus. I can understand that you don't care, since you like the HD menus. What you should care about is that negative impact to Tivo's bottom line risks the value of your lifetime subscription. If Tivo is driven out of business by a class action lawsuit, your lifetime subscription will be worthless.
Ok, so, you apparently don't know anything about technology or how technology works.

It can literally be faster to display an HD menu in one language than an SD menu in another language.

This can happen because compression and coding technologies improve... one language may be interpreted and the other may be compiled. The HD menus may use a better encoding method. They may run on a platform with hardware acceleration whereas the SD menus do not. Etc etc etc.

So your claim, even if I give you the most charitable reading possible, is still not apparently true.

But you being wrong given the most charitable reading of what you said is not actually the point, because what you ACTUALLY said was, and I quote:

Quote:
For everyone, they are a lot slower than SD menus.
Which not true given any reasonable interpretation.

SD menus are not IN ALL CASES faster than HD menus. SD menus on my S2 and S3 are slower than HD menus on my Roamio. So, "for everyone" this is not true. Because, for me, my SD menus on my S3 are slower than my HD menus on my Roamio.

If you meant to say "HD menus are slower on the same box than SD menus" then maybe you should have said that, instead of saying something else, and then re-asserting more unfounded claims to follow it up.

But as I said above, even that isn't known to be true.
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Old 02-12-2014, 03:00 PM   #22
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Also, you can usually tell when it's time to ignore someone as soon as they say "class action lawsuit" despite the fact that every corporation you do business with requires you to waive your right to a class action lawsuit. These are the people too uninformed to be bothered with.
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Old 02-12-2014, 03:59 PM   #23
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You're misinterpreting the statement (I think). My claim, and I think the other poster's claim, is that the Roamio HDUI is faster than the SDUI on models like the Nightlight Series 2. I recently decommisioned my last of those, and it was slow! Changing channels was slow, communication with other TiVos was ridiculously slow, Season Pass Management was ridiculously slow.
There are snails faster than the nightlight TiVo.


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Old 02-12-2014, 05:36 PM   #24
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If you meant to say "HD menus are slower on the same box than SD menus" then maybe you should have said that, instead of saying something else, and then re-asserting more unfounded claims to follow it up.
His post clearly said on "every TiVo made", which implies that for any given TiVo, the SD menus on that TiVo are faster than the HD menus on that same TiVo.

You're just making stuff up.
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Old 02-12-2014, 08:55 PM   #25
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Ok, so, you apparently don't know anything about technology or how technology works.
LMFAO!

Out of curiosity, is English a second language for you? Since you have no idea what the word "gibberish" means, and you have great difficulty understanding my posts, perhaps you don't understand English very well? Bravo, you write very well for someone who doesn't understand the language. Much better than my Spanish or German for sure. Or perhaps you're "special"? Again, bravo! You should be proud that you can do many of life's tasks all by yourself!
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Old 02-13-2014, 11:59 AM   #26
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His post clearly said on "every TiVo made", which implies that for any given TiVo, the SD menus on that TiVo are faster than the HD menus on that same TiVo.

You're just making stuff up.
No, he said "For everyone, they are a lot slower than SD menus." The "for each" is on "users." For each user, are HD menus slower than SD menus? No, because different users have different hardware.

Maybe you should read his actual post that he actually made and respond to what he actually said? Instead of, I don't know what you're doing? Inventing a post he didn't make and using it to defend him.
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Old 02-13-2014, 12:02 PM   #27
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LMFAO!

Out of curiosity, is English a second language for you? Since you have no idea what the word "gibberish" means, and you have great difficulty understanding my posts, perhaps you don't understand English very well? Bravo, you write very well for someone who doesn't understand the language. Much better than my Spanish or German for sure. Or perhaps you're "special"? Again, bravo! You should be proud that you can do many of life's tasks all by yourself!

Awwwww are you sad because I pointed out that you said something incorrect on the internet? I'm sowwwwwwwwwy. I didn't mean to huwt you're poor widdle feewings!

And you just called me special to suggest I'm not smart? Did that really happen? I wonder if there are any more special needs groups you can mock while we're here? The blind? the deaf? amputees? No no, sorry, I didn't mean to steal your ammo. By all means, have at it. You pick which downtrodden and abused group you want to trample on in your quest to look like a tough guy on the internet.

edit: what corner of the backwoods does someone have to live in to think that's a socially acceptable insult? Mind-boggling.
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Old 02-13-2014, 01:22 PM   #28
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Originally Posted by Grakthis View Post
Awwwww are you sad because I pointed out that you said something incorrect on the internet? I'm sowwwwwwwwwy. I didn't mean to huwt you're poor widdle feewings!

And you just called me special to suggest I'm not smart? Did that really happen? I wonder if there are any more special needs groups you can mock while we're here? The blind? the deaf? amputees? No no, sorry, I didn't mean to steal your ammo. By all means, have at it. You pick which downtrodden and abused group you want to trample on in your quest to look like a tough guy on the internet.

edit: what corner of the backwoods does someone have to live in to think that's a socially acceptable insult? Mind-boggling.
Again, LMFAO! Grakthis, don't worry yourself, nothing you could say could hurt my feelings. LOL.

OK, you're having a very difficult time comprehending what you read. That's no reason to lash out at others, that just makes you look pathetic. Try reading my posts again. Read Bigg's post to help you understand. Think real hard as you read. Still having a hard time understanding? OK, try this. take a premiere and set it to SD menus. Step through a couple of tasks like reading show overviews. Now, do the exact same tasks with the HD menus. Time both with a stopwatch. See? The HD menus are slower? Obviously this is a really difficult task for you, so take your time. Try it again if you need to. You could try it again with a Roamio. Now this will be harder for you because the Roamio will be faster. You'll have to really work hard at it. Try and push the button on the stopwatch at the same time you start working the Tivo. Don't get frustrated, it can be very hard for some people to do two things at once. Nothing to be ashamed of there, you have other qualities that make up for it, I'm sure!

OK, now that you've managed to understand the concept of "faster", try working on being a nicer person. Nobody likes obnoxious people. Do you really have such a hard time understanding simple concepts like "implied" and "in context", or are you really just trying to be a jerk?

Come on Grathkis, only a complete and utter fool thinks that the Tivo HD menus are faster than the SD menus. And only a complete and utter fool thinks I was talking about anything other than a Tivo. If you're reading comprehension is above the 3rd grade level, you'd be able to understand that we are talking about different menus on the same Tivo. I understand that you're no genius, but I doubt you're as stupid as you're trying to make people think you are.
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Old 02-13-2014, 01:23 PM   #29
Nak
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To everyone reading this thread, I apologize for being part of this thread devolving to this sordid state. I allowed a simple Troll to divert me from a simple message. I won't respond to the troll again, he can rant all he wants.

To get the thread back on track: It is my assertion that Tivo is stepping further and further away from being a user friendly experience. My three examples are meant to support that assertion. I point out that while some of these steps are probably driven by greed, at least one of the decisions could have negative financial consequences beyond mere consumer dissatisfaction. One respected member has requested I not discuss that any further and I intend to honor his request.

I understand that most on this forum are Tivo fans. No problems there at all. I hope to be a Tivo fan again myself. I just hope that the leaders at Tivo ask themselves "Will we make more money generating a larger fan base, or will we make more money eroding our fan base?" I believe that Tivo will be more successful expanding their fan base, although it is correct that many actions that erode Tivo's popularity will have positive short term impact on Tivo's bottom line. Unfortunately, many, many high end business leaders today only think in the short term. The how and why of that would take a book to discuss properly, but most observant people will have no difficulty seeing the effects if they look for them.
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Old 02-13-2014, 03:05 PM   #30
jrtroo
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Well, I have a hard time agreeing with the term "greed" since Tivo is yet to be profitable from operations. Searching for revenue streams is more applicable.

You are entitled to your own opinions. They clearly think they will make more money with ads, which they have had for years and years.
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