TiVo Community
TiVo Community
TiVo Community
Go Back   TiVo Community > Main TiVo Forums > TiVo Roamio DVRs
TiVo Community
Reply
Forum Jump
 
Thread Tools Rate Thread
Old 01-31-2014, 09:44 AM   #1
pgoelz
Registered User
 
Join Date: May 2005
Posts: 117
Roamio rewinds too far after fast forward

This applies to my Roamio basic (four tuners).

Anyone else find that the Roamio sometimes rewinds much too far after a fast forward? This seems to be very inconsistent and seems to depend on background activity. Most of the time, the backskip amount is consistent and predictable (although more than my S3).

When this happens, I also notice that fewer frames than usual are being displayed per second during the fast forward and the rate at which they change is inconsistent. As if the Roamio was busy doing something in the background. When I then press PLAY, the Roamio skips backwards sometimes as much as 10-20 seconds instead of the usual maybe 5 seconds. As if the current location had not updated correctly during fast forward.

Last night it happened while I was recording two programs. In other words, the Roamio was not working particularly hard.

??

Paul
pgoelz is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-31-2014, 10:17 AM   #2
jrtroo
User
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Posts: 2,166
With the smoothness of the fast forward, you are not seeing lag, that only happens in the menus, but the results of how the show is compiled/transmitted. I normally see about the same amount of time impacted on skipback, but it certainly depends upon the speed of the fast forward.

Experts here will surely be able to explain in better detail how that works if you want to know. Others will support the 30 second skip, which I don't personally care for.
__________________
TiVo Owner
jrtroo is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-31-2014, 11:13 AM   #3
DeltaOne
Mount Airy, MD
 
Join Date: Sep 2013
Posts: 111
Quote:
Originally Posted by jrtroo View Post
Others will support the 30 second skip, which I don't personally care for.
I didn't care for the 30 second skip either. I've been using the 2nd fast forward speed and find it works well.

When I use the 3rd (the fastest) fast forward I find the 'jump back' to too much.
DeltaOne is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-31-2014, 11:42 AM   #4
pgoelz
Registered User
 
Join Date: May 2005
Posts: 117
Quote:
Originally Posted by jrtroo View Post
With the smoothness of the fast forward, you are not seeing lag, that only happens in the menus, but the results of how the show is compiled/transmitted. I normally see about the same amount of time impacted on skipback, but it certainly depends upon the speed of the fast forward.

Experts here will surely be able to explain in better detail how that works if you want to know. Others will support the 30 second skip, which I don't personally care for.
Not sure I'm following you here. I am talking about an extremely inconsistent skipback for the same fast forward speed. I don't see how that has anything to do with how the program was encoded. ??

Paul
pgoelz is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-31-2014, 11:49 AM   #5
pgoelz
Registered User
 
Join Date: May 2005
Posts: 117
Quote:
Originally Posted by DeltaOne View Post
I didn't care for the 30 second skip either. I've been using the 2nd fast forward speed and find it works well.

When I use the 3rd (the fastest) fast forward I find the 'jump back' to too much.
Derailing my own thread

I liked and used the 30 second skip on my S3. Each 30 second jump was pretty instantaneous. If I stacked up six presses (for a skip forward past a typical three minute block of commercials, for example), it was three minutes ahead and had started to play by the time I took my finger off the button.

Unfortunately, the 30 second skip feature on the Roamio seems to simply be a "30 second fast forward". If I press the skip button six times for a 3 minute forward jump, it visibly plays in fast forward and takes much longer than on the S3 to move three minutes forward and start playing.

Paul
pgoelz is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-31-2014, 11:52 AM   #6
CrispyCritter
Purple Ribbon Wearer
 
Join Date: Feb 2001
Location: North Potomac, MD
Posts: 3,427
Quote:
Originally Posted by pgoelz View Post
Not sure I'm following you here. I am talking about an extremely inconsistent skipback for the same fast forward speed. I don't see how that has anything to do with how the program was encoded. ??
It's not only the original encoding of a particular program, but also how your cable company compresses it. Your signal is composed of key frames that have lots of info, each followed by a good number of other frames with much less info (mostly giving changes from the last key frame). When the TiVo jumps back, it has to find and jump back to a key frame before it can go forward again. Depending on the encoding and compression, that key frame may be far away from the optimal point of jumping back to (and the TiVo may not even have enough info to tell that.)
__________________
CrispyCritter
TiVo Roamio:Felix TiVo Premiere:Bob TiVo XL4:Fred TiVo HDXL:Sharon TiVoHD:Susan

Last edited by CrispyCritter : 01-31-2014 at 11:59 AM.
CrispyCritter is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-31-2014, 11:57 AM   #7
CrispyCritter
Purple Ribbon Wearer
 
Join Date: Feb 2001
Location: North Potomac, MD
Posts: 3,427
Quote:
Originally Posted by pgoelz View Post
Derailing my own thread

I liked and used the 30 second skip on my S3. Each 30 second jump was pretty instantaneous. If I stacked up six presses (for a skip forward past a typical three minute block of commercials, for example), it was three minutes ahead and had started to play by the time I took my finger off the button.

Unfortunately, the 30 second skip feature on the Roamio seems to simply be a "30 second fast forward". If I press the skip button six times for a 3 minute forward jump, it visibly plays in fast forward and takes much longer than on the S3 to move three minutes forward and start playing.
Yes, that's a completely different issue. There is a user settable choice between 30 second scan and 30 second skip - look in the menu system under settings/remote (it's called Advance or something similar). There's also an undocumented third option that I don't use and can never remember what it does - you'll need a back-door sequence to set that one up.
__________________
CrispyCritter
TiVo Roamio:Felix TiVo Premiere:Bob TiVo XL4:Fred TiVo HDXL:Sharon TiVoHD:Susan
CrispyCritter is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-31-2014, 12:16 PM   #8
pgoelz
Registered User
 
Join Date: May 2005
Posts: 117
Quote:
Originally Posted by CrispyCritter View Post
It's not only the original encoding of a particular program, but also how your cable company compresses it. Your signal is composed of key frames that have lots of info, each followed by a good number of other frames with much less info (mostly giving changes from the last key frame). When the TiVo jumps back, it has to find and jump back to a key frame before it can go forward again. Depending on the encoding and compression, that key frame may be far away from the optimal point of jumping back to (and the TiVo may not even have enough info to tell that.)
OK, that makes sense. The only part I don't understand is why the S3 seemed to be totally unaffected.... its fast forward was always consistent. The Roamio is not.

Paul
pgoelz is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-31-2014, 04:53 PM   #9
tim1724
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Temple City, CA
Posts: 86
Quote:
Originally Posted by pgoelz View Post
Derailing my own thread

I liked and used the 30 second skip on my S3. Each 30 second jump was pretty instantaneous. If I stacked up six presses (for a skip forward past a typical three minute block of commercials, for example), it was three minutes ahead and had started to play by the time I took my finger off the button.

Unfortunately, the 30 second skip feature on the Roamio seems to simply be a "30 second fast forward". If I press the skip button six times for a 3 minute forward jump, it visibly plays in fast forward and takes much longer than on the S3 to move three minutes forward and start playing.
The 30-second scan is annoying indeed, especially if you're stacking several of them. To get the normal 30-second skip that the older TiVos had, enter the following code while watching a recording: Select Play Select 3 0 Select

If you do it during Live TV you have to put an extra Select at the start.

This is the same code you had to enter on the S3 to enable 30-second skip. The S3 by default does the useless skip-to-mark instead of 30-second skip.
__________________
Happy owner of a TiVo Roamio Pro
tim1724 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-31-2014, 04:59 PM   #10
pgoelz
Registered User
 
Join Date: May 2005
Posts: 117
Quote:
Originally Posted by tim1724 View Post
The 30-second scan is annoying indeed, especially if you're stacking several of them. To get the normal 30-second skip that the older TiVos had, enter the following code while watching a recording: Select Play Select 3 0 Select

If you do it during Live TV you have to put an extra Select at the start.

This is the same code you had to enter on the S3 to enable 30-second skip. The S3 by default does the useless skip-to-mark instead of 30-second skip.
Wow, thanks! Worked perfectly. How in the world does one get to know all these little tidbits? Are they documented somewhere I missed? And if not, WHY NOT Tivo???????

Paul
pgoelz is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-31-2014, 05:37 PM   #11
lpwcomp
Registered User
 
Join Date: May 2002
Location: John's Creek, Georgia
Posts: 4,386
Quote:
Originally Posted by pgoelz View Post
Wow, thanks! Worked perfectly. How in the world does one get to know all these little tidbits? Are they documented somewhere I missed? And if not, WHY NOT Tivo???????

Paul
The 30-second "skip" is and always has been an unofficial feature. I'm just glad that it is still there. I also glad that they made it persistent years ago. Originally, you had to re-enter it after a re-boot.

As to whether this and other backdoor codes are documented and how anyone gets "to know all these little tidbits", the answer is the TCF. I'm not sure why you expect TiVo to officially document features that are not officially supported.
__________________
James L. Sutherland
"You know TiVo users. Bunch of b****y little girls" TiVoAxe

"Jessica Fletcher visits Midsomer. Carnage ensues!"
lpwcomp is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 01-31-2014, 08:43 PM   #12
kajukenbo
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2014
Location: St. Louis, MO
Posts: 6
I've found that hitting Play after FF or RW has yet to actually play from where I would expect in the video.
It is always too far forward or not far enough back.
What is the trick? I understand buffering but it does not behave as I am accustomed to.
Any tips?

Thanks

Last edited by kajukenbo : 01-31-2014 at 08:51 PM.
kajukenbo is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-31-2014, 08:47 PM   #13
pgoelz
Registered User
 
Join Date: May 2005
Posts: 117
Quote:
Originally Posted by kajukenbo View Post
I've found that hitting Play after FF or RW has yet to actually play from where I am in the video.
It is always too far forward or not far enough back.
What is the trick?

Thanks
Tivo attempts to compensate for your reaction time so when you hit PLAY after a FF, the Tivo skips back an amount that is supposed to compensate for your average reaction time. It was pretty close on my TivoHD. It skips back a little too far on my Roamio for my reaction time so I have to intentionally delay pressing PLAY for a couple hundred mS after I see my program resume.

I started this thread because sometimes, it skips back WAY too far. Like occasionally 30 seconds too far. Perhaps you are seeing the same issue?

Paul
pgoelz is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-31-2014, 08:53 PM   #14
kajukenbo
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2014
Location: St. Louis, MO
Posts: 6
It could be. I have not timed it. But the "gap" seems to be abnormal.
I'll pay closer attention and reply if I get any useful statistics.
I teach self defense & martial arts so my reaction time might be above average but I would not expect a few hundred milliseconds to make such a difference.
Thanks for the feedback

Last edited by kajukenbo : 01-31-2014 at 09:13 PM.
kajukenbo is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-01-2014, 12:20 AM   #15
gigaguy
Registered User
 
Join Date: Aug 2013
Posts: 90
I can't get the 30s skip to work with the codes on my XL4. I keep trying.
also, one other trick I learned here is to hit pause after you hit FF button and before you hit play. this stops playback before the overscan can happen when you go from FF to play directly.
gigaguy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-01-2014, 12:09 PM   #16
lpwcomp
Registered User
 
Join Date: May 2002
Location: John's Creek, Georgia
Posts: 4,386
Quote:
Originally Posted by gigaguy View Post
I can't get the 30s skip to work with the codes on my XL4. I keep trying.
We're you playing a recording when you tried to enable it? I don't believe the double select trick works if you are using the HDUI.
__________________
James L. Sutherland
"You know TiVo users. Bunch of b****y little girls" TiVoAxe

"Jessica Fletcher visits Midsomer. Carnage ensues!"
lpwcomp is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 02-01-2014, 02:21 PM   #17
gigaguy
Registered User
 
Join Date: Aug 2013
Posts: 90
I am using the HD menus. I tried both codes.
can you revert to std menu and do the code and switch back to HD menus?. I'll try it.

It worked, in SD mode and I went back to HD and it works. not sure if I was pushing the codes wrong before. kept trying.'thanks.

Last edited by gigaguy : 02-01-2014 at 02:39 PM.
gigaguy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-01-2014, 03:04 PM   #18
Dan203
Super Moderator
 
Dan203's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2000
Location: Nevada
Posts: 23,681
Quote:
Originally Posted by kajukenbo View Post
I've found that hitting Play after FF or RW has yet to actually play from where I would expect in the video.
It is always too far forward or not far enough back.
What is the trick? I understand buffering but it does not behave as I am accustomed to.
Any tips?

Thanks
FF/RW are tricky with digital recordings. Digital recordings use either MPEG-2 or H.254 encoding, both of which are temporal compression formats. What that means is that some frames can only be constructed by first decoding the frames that came before them. With a temporal format there are complete frames, called I frames, inserted every so often so that video can be seeked. Back in the old S2 days when everything was analog TiVo had complete control over this because they were doing the encoding. So they made sure to add an I frame every 1/2 second which made FF/RW very easy to control and very smooth. With the S3 and later they started recording digital channels directly, which meant there FF/RW feature was at the mercy of whatever encoding was used on the source signal. In most cases channels still use a predictable pattern of I frames so FF/RW works OK, but some channels use an erratic pattern which makes it impossible to display a smooth FF/RW and impossible to jump back a consistent amount.

We have one channel here that's like that. I downloaded a show from it and analyzed it in VideoReDo. The spacing on the I frames was all over the board. Some were as close as 6 frames apart and some were as far apart as 30. Trust me when I say that creating a consistent FF/RW from a pattern like that is impossible.
__________________
Dan Haddix
Super Moderator
Developer for VideoReDo
Dan203 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-01-2014, 11:16 PM   #19
kajukenbo
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2014
Location: St. Louis, MO
Posts: 6
The inconsistent I-frames makes sense.
That probably explains the behavior I am seeing.
Thanks
kajukenbo is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply
Forum Jump




Thread Tools
Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:


Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Advertisements

TiVo Community
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.6.8
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
vBulletin Skins by: Relivo Media

(C) 2013 Magenium Solutions - All Rights Reserved. No information may be posted elsewhere without written permission.
TiVoŽ is a registered trademark of TiVo Inc. This site is not owned or operated by TiVo Inc.
All times are GMT -5. The time now is 12:57 PM.
OUR NETWORK: MyOpenRouter | TechLore | SansaCommunity | RoboCommunity | MediaSmart Home | Explore3DTV | Dijit Community | DVR Playground |