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Old 07-01-2014, 01:40 PM   #61
Tomago
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Does anyone have a 4tb image they can share?
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Old 07-01-2014, 03:05 PM   #62
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ggieseke View Post
That may take some DvrBARS tweaking on my part. I haven't tested it yet.

The file format can handle just under 2TiB, but there's a field in the VHD header that lists the total number of sectors on the drive. Cramming the sector count for a 4TB drive into that 32-bit field will probably limit it to 1,801,763,774,464 bytes. I need to add a few lines of code so that when backing up larger drives it will use the VHD max instead of the actual drive size.
Hhmm.. If dvrBARS can handle 2Tb now, then (theoretically) can we drop the (clean) 1Tb XL image onto a 2Tb, reassign partitions, expand/coalesce, fix divorce partition, SAVE as VHD image at this point. Then drop the 2Tb image on a 4tb, and do an expand/supersize. Would this expand to the remaining free space of the 4Tb?
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Old 07-01-2014, 03:27 PM   #63
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Yes. If we do it that way, I would recommend dropping the 1TB image (assuming native and not expanded yet) on the 2TB and expanding and supersizing it. dd copy the image to the 4TB. Then copy and rearrange back to the 2TB. Coalesce the appropriate pair of partitions. Let the TiVo divorce (and update OS if need be) and then DvrBARS back up the image. Then that image can be restored to a 4TB drive and the expanded with the patched JMFS to 4TB.
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Old 07-01-2014, 07:21 PM   #64
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Note

Just to make it clear, the following steps is what you're suggesting.

Steps:

1. Use dvrBARS with native 1Tb XL image to restore to a 2Tb drive
2. Use JMFS v1.05 to Expand & Supersize via guide.sh
3. Then use "dd if=/dev/sda2TDrive of=/dev/sdb4TDrive bs=4096"
4. Then "tivo_copy_rearranged.sh /dev/sdb4TDrive /dev/sda2TDrive 1 11 12 13 15 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 14 10"
5. Then "tivo_coalesce.sh /dev/sda2TDrive 12 13"
6. Put 2Tb drive back into Tivo and let it divorce/update/etc.
7. Use dvrBARS with updated 2Tb drive to backup new updated image.
8. Use new updated image on 4Tb drive(s), then JMFS v1.05 to expand.
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Old 07-01-2014, 07:55 PM   #65
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Yes exactly.
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Old 07-02-2014, 04:16 AM   #66
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Originally Posted by jmbach View Post
Yes exactly.
When putting the drive in to let it update the software (required for >2TB), you should use the "zip00000/Tiny TiVo" trick I outlined in this post: http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb...2#post10150292 (post #55).

This will make the cleanest and smallest image possible, which will compress/zip down further.

I need to find all the posts I made about this trick and add that no cablecard should be installed (in addition to not having the coax-in connected), for best results, smallest image size, and for other reasons I've just found and verified twice.
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Old 09-30-2014, 01:20 PM   #67
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I need little help.

Quote:
Originally Posted by xdroccax View Post
Just to make it clear, the following steps is what you're suggesting.

Steps:

1. Use dvrBARS with native 1Tb XL image to restore to a 2Tb drive
2. Use JMFS v1.05 to Expand & Supersize via guide.sh
3. Then use "dd if=/dev/sda2TDrive of=/dev/sdb4TDrive bs=4096"
4. Then "tivo_copy_rearranged.sh /dev/sdb4TDrive /dev/sda2TDrive 1 11 12 13 15 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 14 10"
5. Then "tivo_coalesce.sh /dev/sda2TDrive 12 13"
6. Put 2Tb drive back into Tivo and let it divorce/update/etc.
7. Use dvrBARS with updated 2Tb drive to backup new updated image.
8. Use new updated image on 4Tb drive(s), then JMFS v1.05 to expand.
On step 4 you have the 4tb first in the command line then the 2tb drive. Is that correct? The reason I ask, is in post 42. It looks like the IntermediateDrive (2TB)drive is first then the DestinationDrive (4TB) drive is 2nd.

Quote:
Originally Posted by cykotix View Post
Switch to TivoTool scripts to rearrange and copy partitions from IntermediateDrive (2TB) to DestinationDrive (4TB)
Code:
# cd ~/TivoTools/coalesce_scripts
# ./tivo_copy_rearranged.sh /dev/IntermediateDrive /dev/DestinationDrive 1 11 12 13 15 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 14 10
I might just be confusing the two posts\processes, but thank you for helping me to understand.
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Old 09-30-2014, 03:17 PM   #68
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It looks like ggieseke gave you a 2TB image already. So you will have to restore that image to a 2TB drive, let the TiVo update itself to the latest OS and then copy the drive over to the 4TB drive. Then need to get a modified version of JMFS to expand that image larger.
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Old 10-02-2014, 08:22 AM   #69
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jmbach View Post
It looks like ggieseke gave you a 2TB image already. So you will have to restore that image to a 2TB drive, let the TiVo update itself to the latest OS and then copy the drive over to the 4TB drive. Then need to get a modified version of JMFS to expand that image larger.
What would be the best way to copy the 2tb to the 4tb? There are no recordings to worry about.

thank you again
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Old 10-02-2014, 09:17 AM   #70
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Just use JMFS (but the modified version) to do the copy and expand. The modified version is the iso made by cykotix.
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Old 10-03-2014, 01:22 AM   #71
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I feel bad for asking for this.

I'm sorry, but is there someone that can really dumb down the steps here? I'm very lost.
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Old 10-03-2014, 08:06 AM   #72
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What is your starting image and has it ever been modified before.
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Old 10-03-2014, 03:18 PM   #73
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I'm using the original 2TB drive in my XL4. I'd like to replace it with a 4TB drive without losing my current recorded shows.
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Old 10-03-2014, 04:28 PM   #74
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You need to use the modified version of JMFS in cykotix iso. Just run the guided procedure like the previous version of JMFS. Copy the 2TB to the 4TB followed by expansion (and supersize if you wish) Comer's version of JMFS will not expand any image larger than 1TB.
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Old 10-04-2014, 02:37 AM   #75
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Color me stupid, and Google has failed me. I have NO idea where to download that version. Can someone point me in the right direction?

Wait, belay that... Is it this file --> mfs-rev105-krbaker-tivotools.iso

I went back and found that link. Wew. I figured if I couldn't even find the link, I was hosed for sure!



Are the new WD purple drives the same/as good as the old WD AV-GP drives ?
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Old 10-04-2014, 10:24 AM   #76
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Yes that is the iso.

As far as the Purple drives, they have not developed a track record as the AV-GP drives have. If you are conservative, then I would go with the AV-GP drives.
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Old 10-05-2014, 01:45 AM   #77
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jmbach View Post
What is your starting image and has it ever been modified before.
I have an expanded 2tb. Can I just hook up the two drives and run the modified iso?
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Old 10-05-2014, 08:56 AM   #78
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The answer is yes but you still have to do prep work. Since the drive is an already expanded drive to 2TB, that is in a sense your 2TB intermediate drive in the instructions cykotix outlined. So follow his instructions from the 2TB intermediate to the 4TB drive.
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Old 10-07-2014, 01:18 AM   #79
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Thank you JMBach, I was finally able to do it. Thanks a lot.

There is one issue though, it keeps restarting. It would do it about every 20 minutes or so. I tried to do a manual update, it connected, downloaded and disconnected successfully, but it restarted as soon as it tried loading. I unplugged the ethernet cable and it hasn't restarted since. Is there a fix for this?
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Old 10-07-2014, 02:29 AM   #80
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There is one issue though, it keeps restarting.
There was Tivo server side issue tonight, which your symptoms match.

https://twitter.com/TiVo/status/519306662587297792
https://twitter.com/TiVo/status/519320286282256385
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Old 10-07-2014, 07:12 AM   #81
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There was Tivo server side issue tonight, which your symptoms match.
What a coincidence. Thanks.
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Old 10-10-2014, 12:55 AM   #82
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jmbach View Post
Yes that is the iso.

As far as the Purple drives, they have not developed a track record as the AV-GP drives have. If you are conservative, then I would go with the AV-GP drives.
My thanks to jmbach for pointing me in the right direction and confirming what actions I should take. You saved me headache and heartache.

My thanks to cykotix for the updated JMFS program that allows me to eek a 4TB drive into my Tivo Premiere XL4.

My thanks to whomever wrote the original JMFS program to begin with!


By way of an update:

I copied my full 2TB stock Western Digital AV-GP drive (Tivo Premier XL4) to my new Western Digital Purple 4TB drive. Process took about 5-5.5 hrs (averaged about 100 Mb/sec xfer). Expanding and Supersizing were almost instantaneous. VERY simple and easy process to follow.

Tivo seemed to take a tad longer than I'm used to booting up the first time (I haven't booted it a second time yet). It runs just fine, showing 638 hours of total recording time at 49% full.

My only stumble has nothing to do with Tivo or the wonderful cykotix iso. I ordered the WD 4TB AV-GP drive from Memory and More via Amazon.com. It even has a picture of the AV-GP drive. I RECEIVED a WD Purple drive. The invoice lists it as a "Western Digital AV drive", contrary to the listing on Amazon. While I could return it and order one from another vendor, I suspect the reason is that WD has replaced the older AV-GP line with the new purple line. Or probably just re-labeled the AV-GP to fit with their new(er) color scheme (red, blue, black, etc). It has the exact same sonic signature (almost none) as the AV-GP (to my ears at least).

Anyway, should I run into any snags with the purple drive, I'll post back and let you all know, though I'm expecting none.
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Old 10-10-2014, 02:47 AM   #83
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My only stumble has nothing to do with Tivo or the wonderful cykotix iso. I ordered the WD 4TB AV-GP drive from Memory and More via Amazon.com. It even has a picture of the AV-GP drive. I RECEIVED a WD Purple drive. The invoice lists it as a "Western Digital AV drive", contrary to the listing on Amazon. While I could return it and order one from another vendor, I suspect the reason is that WD has replaced the older AV-GP line with the new purple line. Or probably just re-labeled the AV-GP to fit with their new(er) color scheme (red, blue, black, etc). It has the exact same sonic signature (almost none) as the AV-GP (to my ears at least).

Anyway, should I run into any snags with the purple drive, I'll post back and let you all know, though I'm expecting none.
There are some concerns, as the Purple (and Red) drives from WD come with TLER (a RAID function, also known as ERC, or Error Recovery Control) enabled. In non-RAID systems, TLER results in sectors that have read issues (like CRC mismatch) being timed-out after 7 seconds of attempts to read. Non-RAID drives, including the AV-GP, will instead enter Deep Error Recovery, and attempt to recover by using special algorithms to read the data. TiVos don't have a RAID controller, nor any software substitute to handle the other half of what should happen in a TLER timeout. This results in sectors that don't read correctly never getting flagged as pending reallocation. This means you can have either false bad sectors, or true bad sectors, never being identified as such, and never being dealt with.

If you were to contact WD, and say you required their help, due to this condition, their response would be you are using the wrong drive for the application.

Google searching for phrases like "Disable TLER", will yield years of forum discussion, complete with quotes from WD.

TLER-enabled drives are only meant for use with (RAID) controllers that can ensure the TLER timeouts are dealt with. Otherwise, you are essentially running without a complete error correction/handling system, and false bad sectors will never be reclaimed for use, nor will true bad sectors be reallocated. On top of this, the SMART attributes that would normally show degrading values, and indicate an issue, or drop below threshold values, resulting in a SMART fail error, will not change/update.

The TiVo will be "running blind", as will you, if you check the SMART using KS54, and expect that SMART will show you the truth.

When installed in a PC, under virtually any PC OS, you can set a script to send a command to disable TLER on the drive, allowing it to operate properly, the error correction to operate properly, and the SMART attributes to display correct values. You can't do this with a TiVo.

While it is your decision to make, I advise you contact WD about this, let them know you are using the drive in a TiVo, which does not support RAID, get their official response, then forward that to Amazon.

I've been working on this issue, in the shadows, for months, collaborating with some of the best of TCF, and trying to keep the forum trolls and the "who cares" people out of it, as until now, only NewEgg had incorrectly began flagging the Purple as "the newer model" of AV-GP drives.

AV-GP drives are not a discontinued product, nor has WD officially slated them for discontinuation.

My experiences with TLER timeouts using a 3TB WD Red NAS drive were a diagnostic nightmare, and I wasted months due to the errors being hidden from the TiVo, leaving the TiVo OS unable to detect, flag, and deal with sectors being TLER timed-out.

If the sectors are simply weakly written, and they are in an area of the drive frequently overwritten, they can resolve themselves. If they are in an are in an area that's mostly read-only, or are truly bad sectors, they will cause issues.

If it were as simple as the TLER simply limiting the recovery attempt to 7 seconds, but all the rest of the mechanism was active, and worked, simply possibly flagging some good sectors, as bad, and avoiding them later, it would be what some would want, or be OK with. But, that's not the case here. Half the error recovery and control mechanism is disabled by TLER, and the other half is supposed to be handled by the host, typically by a RAID controller. TiVos can't even recognise the mechanism, thus they can't even try to emulate the missing half, and they do nothing with the communications from the drive that a TLER event has happened.

I didn't want to even raise the alarm any more than the few threads I have brought it up in. If what I am saying is all "blah blah blah" to you, then please call WD and ask them if you have the right drive, especially since you ordered an AV-GP, like TiVo uses, and got a Purple, instead. If their answer doesn't make it clear, ask them how to disable TLER on the drive, as your TiVo doesn't have RAID. That should get the answer, that should make you want the drive you ordered.
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Old 10-10-2014, 04:13 AM   #84
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Added notes, if you order an AV-GP drive and get sent a Purple: The Purple drives are often cheaper than AV-GP drives, on sites such as Newegg, especially when comparing regular price to regular price, or sale price to sale price.

If I were in a position where I couldn't get an AV-GP drive, but could get a Purple, or Red drive, I would pick the Red.

Workload ratings:
AV-GP: Unpublished
Purple: 60TB/yr
Red: 120-150TB/yr

Warranty: 3yr, all models

Support:
AV-GP: Supported for use in TiVo and other non-RAID DVR/PVR use.
Purple/Red: Unsupported for hosts not having TLER-capable controllers, limited support for hosts that can toggle the TLER off via SCT startup script.

Notes about SCT changes to TLER setting (when applicable): Not preserved between power cycles, but are preserved through power-on resets. No way to use this to keep your TiVo drive TLER-disabled (operating in normal Deep Error Recovery mode, which will retry operations, until the host hardware or software times-out. In TiVos, the software handles this, and will handle flagging the sector accordingly, to prevent future issues at that LBA).
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Old 10-10-2014, 05:13 AM   #85
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I ordered the WD 4TB AV-GP drive from Memory and More via Amazon.com. It even has a picture of the AV-GP drive. I RECEIVED a WD Purple drive.
It's strongly against Amazon rules to send an item that doesn't match the listing and picture.

I prefer to return the item whenever that happens so the vendor gets their metrics dinged, and Amazon will eventually notice and take action.
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Old 10-10-2014, 06:02 AM   #86
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It's strongly against Amazon rules to send an item that doesn't match the listing and picture.

I prefer to return the item whenever that happens so the vendor gets their metrics dinged, and Amazon will eventually notice and take action.
For the simple, straightforward, way to handle this, I agree 100%.
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Old 10-10-2014, 07:46 PM   #87
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If the sectors are simply weakly written, and they are in an area of the drive frequently overwritten, they can resolve themselves. If they are in an are in an area that's mostly read-only, or are truly bad sectors, they will cause issues.
You have done a lot of work on this but the Roamio have the software in flash, so any problems on the hard drive may interrupt a recorded program but not the TiVo software, and when re-written all may correct itself. Am I missing something, as I have one Red drive and one AV and one other WD drive installed in my upgraded Roamios, I have, up to now, never had any differences that could notice. I record the news on two units each night, sometimes the picture would break up or stop for a second, I look at the time stamp and check this out on the other Roamio, same problem at the same time in the program, must be the cable xmission.
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Old 10-11-2014, 06:17 AM   #88
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You have done a lot of work on this but the Roamio have the software in flash, so any problems on the hard drive may interrupt a recorded program but not the TiVo software, and when re-written all may correct itself. Am I missing something, as I have one Red drive and one AV and one other WD drive installed in my upgraded Roamios, I have, up to now, never had any differences that could notice. I record the news on two units each night, sometimes the picture would break up or stop for a second, I look at the time stamp and check this out on the other Roamio, same problem at the same time in the program, must be the cable xmission.
Let's start small, since I've been discussing this in several threads now, and have been working on this since before even the Summer update, mostly trying to get the facts, verify them, and not go full gospel on the matter...

To begin with, just because the Roamio has flash for the "OS", does not mean all of the OS resides there. Anything being written to, except for when the software is actually updated, during the update, still gets placed on the platter drive. TiVo can't allow the NAND being worn-out.

A problematic sector can be written to, even many times, and have no issue being written to. Unless a system does auto-verification that each sector written, can be read-back, a successful write doesn't mean the sector is "in the clear". Where the most frequent issues happen, is on sectors with no issue during writing, but will fail CRC upon being read. This where the sector technically can be read, but the CRC says what is being read, is corrupted. This will set-off the 7 second TLER, as the drive tries to read the sector, getting the CRC and data to match.

As your drive ages, the likeliness of this happening increases. But, since the mechanism of TLER, and the TiVo don't understand each other, sectors that accept writes, without error, but don't read without error, will keep happening.

In a normal, non-TLER system, the sectors I just described would get flagged as pending, then later be reallocated with spare sectors, if need be.

In the extra research I've done lately, to make sure I don't post mere other forum talk as gospel, it's clear this mechanism becomes broken, when sectors continue to read data back, not matching CRC (equals corrupted data), and they don't get flagged as pending, raw read errors, or reallocated, which creates a false table of SMART attribute values, since the problems I just spoke of should show up there.

It would require taking the drive out of the TiVo, and using a PC, with the right software, to do a full read test, with SCT toggling the TLER off (a volatile setting, which is lost at next power cycle), doing a full read, then following that by a full write, to get a true view of the the drive, since TLER hides so many things. Now, suddenly, the SMART values will be correct, as nothing gets hidden by only having half the TLER mechanism working, for the time the drive was in the TiVo.

That's starting small. I'm working towards a full write-up, rather than bits and pieces, and a fully-documented, real-life example that proves, just how big of an issue this can be, early on, which should make some uneasy about it as drives age, and sectors become actually unrecoverably bad along the way, but never get flagged as anything, because the TLER conversation, is being sent to a host that doesn't "speak TLER".

Bad sectors in database locations, and other system-critical areas, will tend to cause problems right away. If they are in places only media data is written, they may just cause glitches, but not make the whole TiVo experience crippled and unbearable.

A suite of tools to (attempt to) deal with TLER concerns is being collaborated on, with some of the best minds here. Due to the only currently known way to disable TLER, persistent across power cycles, being unsupported by WD, risking bricking drives permanently, or creating other problems, it will not be rushed-out.

It is being worked on in a manner that keeps the trolls at bay, and keeps the signal to noise ratio down, as an analogy. I've already spent too much time talking about it, rather than using that time working with the others, and finishing up what will be my complete write-ups on it. The documentation is my role, along with the write-ups.

There isn't 100% agreement by all parties involved in the project. But, it's mostly on how much one should worry, or if there might be any advantages to 7 second TLER, even with half that mechanism missing, versus deep error recovery (normal default mode without TLER, which disables that mode of operation). That's all I can give. I'm only giving this much, since I started posting about things before the group was formed. If we all start talking, or I take things beyond clarifying what I already put out there, it doesn't help the group effort. Some of us are taking risks we'd never ask anybody to take.

Data points the rest can help with are:

What brand and model drives are seen in the newest TiVos shipping, especially the 3TB Roamio Pro.

Those willing to test WD Purple drives from WeaKnees, to see if WK has found a way to disable TLER, that can hopefully be replicated. A simple, safe, way to do this is in the works. Once this part has been taken care of, a new thread will be created on the subject, and all remaining efforts will hopefully be centralized.

ETA: The things "in the works" are not 100% known to be possible, with 100% of TLER-enabled drives, or 100% safe. Obviously, the goal is to "do no harm", and not create new problems, trying to work out the concerns on the table. When the group is ready to bring in volunteers for testing and verification, and minimal risk, the new thread will be created for such purposes, and will, hopefully, become a clearinghouse, plus a FAQ area, and the subject exposure in other threads can be minimalised to awareness, and links can take place of posts like this when bringing the matter up, outside the thread to be the new home.

TLER only becomes an issue, when it starts being used to deal with problem sectors. If you have no sectors triggering TLER, you won't be affected. If you have them in media-only areas of the disk, the impact will be minimal.

Think of it this way: If you bought a hard drive, and found it had bad sectors, but the drive wasn't even recording they exist, or flagging them as what they are, essentially hiding them from you, would you trust that disk, once you knew? TLER creates this condition, when the host doesn't support the share of the error handling, that TLER puts on it. Last I checked, people tend to RMA platter drives that develop bad sectors, within warranty, even if just a few are reallocated with spares. Being blind to sectors that would be marked pending and/or reallocated does not change the fact they are there. This goes beyond my earlier posts about "weak writes", and how they can be recovered, without any reallocation.
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Old 10-22-2014, 09:11 PM   #89
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I'm a newbie, just have a quick question. Is there any advantage to using jmfs 1.50, to upgrade a Premiere with 360gb hdd, to a 2 tb hd, or am I better off using jmfs 1.40. Thanks!
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Old 10-23-2014, 12:37 AM   #90
jmbach
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It would not matter. Either one would do the job.
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