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Old 03-07-2016, 03:55 PM   #1
tatergator1
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Interesting Skip Mode observation

So, Skip Mode was finally enabled on my Roamio on March 4. I was scrolling through the My Shows list and made an interesting discovery. Some previously recorded movies that are marked Keep Until Delete and upwards of 2 years old have working Skip Mode data. I did a quick forum search and didn't see any mention of this yet and thought I'd point it out. The movies were recorded from ABC Family and I can only assume that ABC Family has re-broadcast these movies within the 4:30PM - 12PM time-frame at some point since Tivo started tagging in October 2015.

I'd guess this is of minimal overall benefit to the majority of the Tivo user-base, but certainly a nice benefit for those who might tend to save up large recording groups and then binge watch later, particularly cable shows which often tend to be re-run multiple times and many months after initial broadcast.

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Old 03-07-2016, 06:59 PM   #2
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Yes the data is stored by content ID so it doesn't actually matter when it was recorded or even what channel it was recorded from, as long as the same episode/movie was broadcast on a supported channel during the supported time, and they can properly sync the skip points, then it will work.

One interesting note in your case is that the movies were recorded so long ago. TiVo uses a has table generated from the captions to align the points to your recording. I assume they generate this hash table at record time, which is why it's not transferred when using MRV. You situation shows that they've been generating and storing that hash data for years, even though they've only recently begun using it.

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Old 03-07-2016, 07:12 PM   #3
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I'm going to record this weeks "Sleepless in Seattle" since it is supposed to have SM. That's over 20 years ago.

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Old 03-07-2016, 07:21 PM   #4
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It doesn't matter how old the movie is. It just matters whether it aired on one of the supported channels in the supported time frame. The only thing weird about the original post is that the movies were recorded 2 years ago. That means the hash data they use to align the skip points has been being generated for a long time. So this feature must have been in the works for a long time as well.

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Old 03-07-2016, 09:53 PM   #5
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Interesting, yours is now the oldest.. Back when I got skip mode, I noted that I was seeing shows from IIRC june or july getting skip mode (some episodes).

Though just yesterday I realized that that History Channel miniseries "Sons of Liberty" got skip mode (at least on one episode).. I recorded that in January of 2015. (I keep it because it's one of the shows I literally cannot download to my iPad -- it freezes playback even if I get a supposedly successful download after a million tries..)

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Old 03-07-2016, 10:20 PM   #6
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I'm very new to a "real" TiVo. The last TiVo I had was a DirecTiVo.

I assume this Skip Mode everyone is talking about is the "ding" and the message to press D that skips all the commercials and goes back to the show.

If so, I have noticed that I have only seed this on one show so far. I recorded CSI: Cyber and it worked on it.

Today while watching Judge Judy, Hot Bench, All in the Family and One Day at a Time, none of these had the same behavior.

All 4 of those were recorded today. I'm not certain when CSI: Cyber was recorded. Sunday evening I believe, 3/6/16.

What causes some recordings to have it and some not?

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Old 03-07-2016, 10:38 PM   #7
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The SkipMode feature is available only on certain recorded shows; we hope to make it available for the most popular shows on the most popular channels watched by TiVo subscribers. That means you’ll find SkipMode availability on many shows that you record between 4:30 p.m. and midnight (or 12:30 a.m. on major networks) on the most widely-watched channels.

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Old 03-07-2016, 10:49 PM   #8
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Actually I kind of wonder how this works on movies? The way it works on TV shows is they mark show segments and then align those segments using CC data. But with movies there are not predefined segments and the movie could be broken anywhere to insert commercials. So I wonder how they know of the segments line up?

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Old 03-08-2016, 02:17 AM   #9
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Just saw that SkipMode was added to Apocolypse L.A. from the SyFy channel that I recorded back on 11/11/14. Looking at the show, it appears that SyFy is replaying the movie in another week.


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Old 03-08-2016, 07:50 AM   #10
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Actually I kind of wonder how this works on movies? The way it works on TV shows is they mark show segments and then align those segments using CC data. But with movies there are not predefined segments and the movie could be broken anywhere to insert commercials. So I wonder how they know of the segments line up?
That was my thought too. When I saw the Skip icon, I was thinking, "Could these really be accurate? or is the software just seeing a match to contentID and hitting the D button is just going to randomly skip me through this old recording." I checked the Skip points and everything is correct for this movie. Considering the movie was likely edited for time to fit within a specific total length, I guess it's not unreasonable that commercial breaks would be in the same spots each time they re-broadcast it, but the commercials would certainly be different.

In terms of knowing that the segments line up, would there be anything identifiable regarding commercial breaks and how those show up in the CC stream? Presumably, there has to be some sort of cut in CC data at commercial breaks, especially with network shows where local affiliates insert the occasional local commercial or station promo into the national feed. It seems like the technical experts here on the forum have some idea of how the Skip tags are coded and referenced, but it also seems like we don't know the complete intricacies of the process.

I also popped open kmttg to verify the date since the Tivo software won't show the year anywhere, just month and date. The movie "Tangled" was recorded 8/16/2014. So, I was a little off on my "2 years" claim.

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Old 03-09-2016, 06:26 AM   #11
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Sleepless

Just wanted to post that I recorded "Sleepless in Seattle" this morning on TBS and SM was enabled. Someone is updating old movies. I didn't check the accuracy of the skip points.

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Old 03-09-2016, 07:39 AM   #12
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Just wanted to post that I recorded "Sleepless in Seattle" this morning on TBS and SM was enabled. Someone is updating old movies. I didn't check the accuracy of the skip points.
It's not that they're "updating old movies." You said the recording was performed in the morning, a time when shows are not actively tagged. This simply means that Sleepless in Seattle has been broadcast on TBS, or another Skip Mode channel, sometime between now and October 2015 during the hours of 4:30 PM to 12:00 PM.

I'm actually impressed that Tivo's Skip Mode tagging method is so robust. The fact that it is adaptable to past/future airings of episodes/movies, and not just to the specific broadcast for which the program was initially tagged is suprising.

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Old 03-09-2016, 12:58 PM   #13
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Originally Posted by tatergator1 View Post
So, Skip Mode was finally enabled on my Roamio on March 4. I was scrolling through the My Shows list and made an interesting discovery. Some previously recorded movies that are marked Keep Until Delete and upwards of 2 years old have working Skip Mode data. I did a quick forum search and didn't see any mention of this yet and thought I'd point it out. The movies were recorded from ABC Family and I can only assume that ABC Family has re-broadcast these movies within the 4:30PM - 12PM time-frame at some point since Tivo started tagging in October 2015.

I'd guess this is of minimal overall benefit to the majority of the Tivo user-base, but certainly a nice benefit for those who might tend to save up large recording groups and then binge watch later, particularly cable shows which often tend to be re-run multiple times and many months after initial broadcast.
I assume that Skip Mode works off of the same technology that local cable companies use to insert local advertising. Advertising insertion has been around for a very long time.

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Old 03-09-2016, 01:13 PM   #14
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I assume that Skip Mode works off of the same technology that local cable companies use to insert local advertising. Advertising insertion has been around for a very long time.
Nope. Cable companies are getting a national feed directly from the content provider. That feed includes tones that indicate where they can insert local ads. There are no tones in the consumer broadcast that indicate commercial points.

TiVo uses humans to mark the start and end of the show segments, not the commercials, on their own recordings. They sync those points using the caption data and then on your local TiVo they use your caption data to align the segments to your recording. This allows the duration of the commercial segments to differ from market to market while still allowing SkipMode to function as long as the segment durations remain constant.

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Old 03-09-2016, 08:52 PM   #15
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Nope. Cable companies are getting a national feed directly from the content provider. That feed includes tones that indicate where they can insert local ads. There are no tones in the consumer broadcast that indicate commercial points.

TiVo uses humans to mark the start and end of the show segments, not the commercials, on their own recordings. They sync those points using the caption data and then on your local TiVo they use your caption data to align the segments to your recording. This allows the duration of the commercial segments to differ from market to market while still allowing SkipMode to function as long as the segment durations remain constant.
The more I read about how this works, the more clever it seems. I wonder if TiVo has patented this process.

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Old 03-10-2016, 10:21 PM   #16
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Just one question: Why are you people watching movies on commercial stations?
1) commercials (even with skip mode)
2) HACKED UP for time, content
3) possibly not even the right aspect ratio

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Old 03-10-2016, 10:45 PM   #17
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The more I read about how this works, the more clever it seems. I wonder if TiVo has patented this process.
TiVo doesn't do anything without applying for a patent first.

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Old 03-11-2016, 01:04 AM   #18
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TiVo doesn't do anything without applying for a patent first.
And then searching for people who may be infringing to sue.

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Old 03-12-2016, 04:54 AM   #19
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Just one question: Why are you people watching movies on commercial stations?
1) commercials (even with skip mode)
2) HACKED UP for time, content
3) possibly not even the right aspect ratio
Because they are included with your cable subscription or are on a free over the air channel. We don't ever spend money for premium movie channels or pay per view. If its not currently on Netflix or Amazon Prime. Basic cable is our only way to see a movie for us.

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Old 03-14-2016, 09:40 AM   #20
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Just one question: Why are you people watching movies on commercial stations?
1) commercials (even with skip mode)
2) HACKED UP for time, content
3) possibly not even the right aspect ratio
Wish List records it?

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Old 03-14-2016, 10:07 AM   #21
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Just one question: Why are you people watching movies on commercial stations?
1) commercials (even with skip mode)
2) HACKED UP for time, content
3) possibly not even the right aspect ratio
Generally, these are movies for my kids. At 6 and 4 years old, they could care less about commercials or that the movie "Tangled" is "hacked up" and missing 4 minutes compared to the theatrical release.

The above concerns only apply to purists which, IMHO, would be the minority in this situation.

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Old 03-14-2016, 11:03 AM   #22
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Channels i would like to see added to tivo's skipmode

I have noticed this also.

I have a number of shows recorded over the last few years that are old and not recorded again that have SKIP logo.

I also have shows that were recorded in the evening that sometimes have SKIP, but not every show. It seems in these cases these show do not show SKIP even hours after they were recorded, but older shows recorded weeks and months ago do show SKIP.

CHANNELS I WOULD LIKE TO SEE ADDED TO TIVO'S SKIPMODE:
BBCA
METV
FAMNET
CN
LOGO
OXYGN
SCI
HALLMARK
FXX
VELOCITY
DISNEYXD
HISTORYHD
MSNBC
CNN
TCM
CNBCHD
FREEFORMHD
NGCHD
ELREY
OVATION
H2


AND THESE FOR MANY SHOWS NOT BEING SKIPPED:
CBS (?)
TNT (?)
CW (?)
SYFY (?)
FXXD (?)


Quote:
Originally Posted by tatergator1 View Post
So, Skip Mode was finally enabled on my Roamio on March 4. I was scrolling through the My Shows list and made an interesting discovery. Some previously recorded movies that are marked Keep Until Delete and upwards of 2 years old have working Skip Mode data. I did a quick forum search and didn't see any mention of this yet and thought I'd point it out. The movies were recorded from ABC Family and I can only assume that ABC Family has re-broadcast these movies within the 4:30PM - 12PM time-frame at some point since Tivo started tagging in October 2015.

I'd guess this is of minimal overall benefit to the majority of the Tivo user-base, but certainly a nice benefit for those who might tend to save up large recording groups and then binge watch later, particularly cable shows which often tend to be re-run multiple times and many months after initial broadcast.

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Old 03-14-2016, 11:16 AM   #23
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I also have shows that were recorded in the evening that sometimes have SKIP, but not every show.
I think I may have seen the same thing. e.g.
I have 6 episodes of Suits on my drive, all recordings made 8pm on Wednesdays on USA and marked as new. (I'm a bit behind on my watching)
The 1/27 and 3/2 episodes have skip data.
The 2/3, 2/10, 2/17, and 2/24 episodes do not have skip data.

Another example, is last Thursday, all on CBS, all new episodes...
7pm Big Bang Theory did have skip data
8, 830 Mom and 2 Broke girls did not have skip data
9pm Elementary did have skip data

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Old 03-14-2016, 11:30 AM   #24
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8, 830 Mom and 2 Broke girls did not have skip data
odd. My episode of 2 broke girls had skip mode a minute after it finished recording

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Old 03-14-2016, 11:32 AM   #25
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I have noticed this also. I have a number of shows recorded over the last few years that are old and not recorded again that have SKIP logo. I also have shows that were recorded in the evening that sometimes have SKIP, but not every show. It seems in these cases these show do not show SKIP even hours after they were recorded, but older shows recorded weeks and months ago do show SKIP. CHANNELS I WOULD LIKE TO SEE ADDED TO TIVO'S SKIPMODE: BBCA METV FAMNET CN LOGO OXYGN SCI HALLMARK FXX VELOCITY DISNEYXD HISTORYHD MSNBC CNN TCM CNBCHD FREEFORMHD NGCHD ELREY OVATION H2 AND THESE FOR MANY SHOWS NOT BEING SKIPPED: CBS (?) TNT (?) CW (?) SYFY (?) FXXD (?)

Freeform already has skip. It was abc family.

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Old 03-14-2016, 01:13 PM   #26
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Originally Posted by justen_m View Post
I think I may have seen the same thing. e.g.
I have 6 episodes of Suits on my drive, all recordings made 8pm on Wednesdays on USA and marked as new. (I'm a bit behind on my watching)
The 1/27 and 3/2 episodes have skip data.
The 2/3, 2/10, 2/17, and 2/24 episodes do not have skip data.

Another example, is last Thursday, all on CBS, all new episodes...
7pm Big Bang Theory did have skip data
8, 830 Mom and 2 Broke girls did not have skip data
9pm Elementary did have skip data
Quote:
Originally Posted by unclehonkey View Post
odd. My episode of 2 broke girls had skip mode a minute after it finished recording
Skip Mode requires uncorrupted Closed Captioning data to properly function. One possibility is that justen_m's local affiliate was having captioning issues during re-transmission of the national feed, while unclehonkey had proper captions.

Try watching those episodes with CC on and see if you have any quirks in the CC stream. If so, complain to the local affiliate. CC issues are a big legal compliance issue and will be fixed quickly if you complain.

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Old 03-14-2016, 01:41 PM   #27
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Try watching those episodes with CC on and see if you have any quirks in the CC stream. If so, complain to the local affiliate. CC issues are a big legal compliance issue and will be fixed quickly if you complain.
The CBS shows are gone, but I'll pay attention as I catch up on Suits. I often watch with CC on, but don't always pay attention to them if I don't need 'em. (depends on the dialogue, sound balance, etc)

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Old 03-14-2016, 02:00 PM   #28
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Skip Mode requires uncorrupted Closed Captioning data to properly function. One possibility is that justen_m's local affiliate was having captioning issues during re-transmission of the national feed, while unclehonkey had proper captions.
Mine is an O&O (owned by CBS)....so maybe that might be part of it

Quote:
Try watching those episodes with CC on and see if you have any quirks in the CC stream. If so, complain to the local affiliate. CC issues are a big legal compliance issue and will be fixed quickly if you complain.
the shows that don't have it (and should or did at one time) the CC is right.

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Old 03-23-2016, 07:14 PM   #29
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Considering the movie was likely edited for time to fit within a specific total length, I guess it's not unreasonable that commercial breaks would be in the same spots each time they re-broadcast it, but the commercials would certainly be different.
The number of commercials and where they are inserted vary by station.

Take the same movie, total run time of 1 hour 50 minutes. On Fox Movies, the allotted time will be 2 hours 30 minutes, so there are 40 minutes of commercials, promos, station breaks, whatever. On AMC, the allotted time will be 3 hours, so there will be 70 minutes of commercials, promos, etc. I no longer watch AMC or even have it in the guide for that reason.

Also, most stations backload their commercials on movies - they don't have any at all for first 10 or 15 minutes to draw you into the story, then they show up with increasing frequency until the last half hour, when they run a full slate of spots every five minutes or so. If you've come that far, they know you're gonna stick it out until the end, and so they jam almost as many commercial as movie minutes into the final half hour.

I really, really like Skip mode on my Roamio. So far, it has been flawless.

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