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Old 01-07-2014, 12:28 PM   #61
atmuscarella
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Originally Posted by bradleys View Post
I would be interested in having some cloud space as a component of the solution. One reason Netflix and other streaming services work so well, is that they have the infrastructure to drive the services. You expose the weak link in OOH streaming, you need to (in real time) convert the stream, upload the stream through your network to the internet and then download the stream to your device... Any bottleneck along that path will cause a stutter, stammer or just plain failure.

And even the process of offloading content to your device is a pain, because at least with IOS, it cannot be done in the background.

If you had cloud space you could choose to move a recording (or record to...) that cloud storage. It would then be available to you remotely - with the stability and hardware support to make OOH streaming as reliable as Netflix.

Nobody wants to give up their local storage for cloud storage, but cloud storage as an additonal service would be a very welcome addition in my mind.


Another Thought:

What if - both of us as TiVo owers - I could share my cloud content with you? A process as simple as changing the owner ID and it moves from me to you should make the solution legal... You could then view it from your TiVo or TiVo portal device. When you are done with it, transfer it back to me or the next guy...

I have an open mind on the oportunties of this solution, as long as the industry / TiVo doesn't try to take my local storage away.
If TiVo decided to provide cloud storage to consumers as an add on, I think that would be great for many, even most people. However there are still some of us that do not have access to very good high speed Internet. My Frontier DSL is supposed to be 6 Mb/sec but there are plenty of times it drops to 1.5 or less and I end up with buffering SD content to the point I don't want to use it. Uploads is even worse absolute best is 1/3Mb/sec, so uploading anything of much size to the "cloud" is all but impossible.

That said I really don't see why TiVo would do this on the consumer side without charging an extra monthly fee, which would turn off lots of people. Plus unless there is a major change in restrictions allot of content could not be copied to the cloud just like it can not be copied to another DVR or an iOS device now.
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Old 01-07-2014, 12:34 PM   #62
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Whatever it is will probably only be half baked.
Yeah. But it will still ship and will be intolerably slow, buggy, and unreliable, and the fix will always be "real soon now" but "I can't wait for the new hardware that will fix this." Wash. Rinse. Repeat.
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Old 01-07-2014, 12:36 PM   #63
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"Cloud DVR's" are all the rage at the moment and we are already seeing a number of solutions being paraded out during CES this year. And yes, you are correct - the solution is designed to make delivering the DVR service cheaper and contained.

The price reduction will come with some forced advertising, limitations in flexibility and limitations in available space - but I suspect it is going to be very popular both as a service delivered by cable companies and as a retail option (whether TiVo offers it retails is beside the point).

But - I disagree with you that offering some cloud space to current retail customers would bring no value. I am not talking about the cableco, I am talking about TiVo and, while it may be wishful thinking - cloud as a service has a use case.
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Old 01-07-2014, 12:36 PM   #64
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What would knock my socks is a built in Microsoft Windows CE Media client that works as a UVerse interface.
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Old 01-07-2014, 12:41 PM   #65
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"Cloud DVR's" are all the rage at the moment and we are already seeing a number of solutions being paraded out during CES this year. And yes, you are correct - the solution is designed to make delivering the DVR service cheaper and contained.

The price reduction will come with some forced advertising, limitations in flexibility and limitations in available space - but I suspect it is going to be very popular both as a service delivered by cable companies and as a retail option (whether TiVo offers it retails is beside the point).

But - I disagree with you that offering some cloud space to current retail customers would bring no value. I am not talking about the cableco, I am talking about TiVo and, while it may be wishful thinking - cloud as a service has a use case.
Sure it has a use case, everything you can think of has a use case. But, there's not enough customers to make it profitable. Think of how few retail customers TiVo actually has, and then think of how high it would have to be priced for them to make money on it.

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What would knock my socks is a built in Microsoft Windows CE Media client that works as a UVerse interface.
That doesn't even make sense. TiVo boxes run Linux. Mediaroom is a wholly competing platform to TiVo.
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Old 01-07-2014, 12:42 PM   #66
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That said I really don't see why TiVo would do this on the consumer side without charging an extra monthly fee, which would turn off lots of people.
Not unlike dropbox and other solutions - I would design the solution as offering a small amount of space as part of your service package and allowing you to increase that space for a fee. But, I do agree - they would need to find a way to generate revenue from the solution.

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Plus unless there is a major change in restrictions allot of content could not be copied to the cloud just like it can not be copied to another DVR or an iOS device now.
TiVo hasn't let the restrictions on Comcast and others stop their development - what protected content would allow and wouldn't allow is open for debate, but I don't want to be held back because you have a crappy cable provider.
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Old 01-07-2014, 12:59 PM   #67
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Sure it has a use case, everything you can think of has a use case. But, there's not enough customers to make it profitable. Think of how few retail customers TiVo actually has, and then think of how high it would have to be priced for them to make money on it.
If TiVo were already developing the cloud infrastructure to support Cloud only retail and Cloud only CableCo DVR's then offering that service to full service retail and CableCo custumers would only add to the user base and economy of scale...

TiVo will decide what makes sense for them. Either they will be correct or they will wither and die. But if Retail Cloud DVR's become a popular option (and I think they will) then TiVo can choose to compete or not. I think I have seen two retail Cloud DVR offerings from CES already, so to think this will only be a CableCo option is a little pessimistic in my mind.

http://www.theverge.com/2014/1/7/528...and/in/5042993
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Old 01-07-2014, 01:10 PM   #68
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It might be as simple as allowing small cable companies to offer a cheap (think TiVo Mini*) solution to customers paired with cloud storage.
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*note: I realize a new box would need to be designed with tuners, etc.. and the TiVo Mini couldn't be leveraged directly.
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I highly, highly doubt that this would be something offered to retail customers, nor would it be something that you record locally but then push the content back up to the cloud service. How inefficient is that? Send the video down in a 5-10mbps QAM, only to immediately push it right back up through the public internet at the same exact bitrate, when most people don't have that high of an upstream bandwidth?

This is entirely to compete with the likes of ActiveVideo. The tuners will be at the cable company, they'll just record it directly at the datacenter, and then the video will be streamed to you either via IP or via a VOD type system. To think otherwise is foolish wishful thinking.
This makes the most sense. This is strictly MSO-directed.
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Old 01-07-2014, 01:20 PM   #69
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This makes the most sense. This is strictly MSO-directed.
As I said, I do expect that TiVo is focusing on providing small MSO providers a turn key solution. And yes, Initially, this may be the entire scope of the effort. However, I do see value for TiVo in expanding that functionality and apparently others do as well.

http://www.theverge.com/2014/1/7/528...and/in/5042993

Quote:
Sony announces cloud-based TV service with live TV, DVR, and video on demand
Players like Sony are going after the retail market with cloud based DVR's. Must just be me (oh and Sony) that thinks cloud based solutions might generate revenue.

If Sony is going to provide this service, how far behind can Microsoft with the Xbox One be?
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Old 01-07-2014, 01:47 PM   #70
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If TiVo were already developing the cloud infrastructure to support Cloud only retail and Cloud only CableCo DVR's then offering that service to full service retail and CableCo custumers would only add to the user base and economy of scale...

TiVo will decide what makes sense for them. Either they will be correct or they will wither and die. But if Retail Cloud DVR's become a popular option (and I think they will) then TiVo can choose to compete or not. I think I have seen two retail Cloud DVR offerings from CES already, so to think this will only be a CableCo option is a little pessimistic in my mind.

http://www.theverge.com/2014/1/7/528...and/in/5042993
What retail cloud DVRs are you talking about? I think you are mistaken about the architecture of how the TiVo cloud DVR would work, how current cable company provided cloud DVRs work, and how the Sony "Internet TV" service will work.

Current cable company network DVRs and the proposed TiVo network DVR would work this way: The network streams are recorded at the cable company's datacenter and recorded to servers in their datacenter. Not TiVo's datacenter or whatever other vendor they use. The nature of cable means that this cannot be a "universal" service run by TiVo on TiVo's servers in their datacenter. Now, they would surely have supporting network services that still run on their servers, but the DVR portion would, by the virtue of how the content licenses work, HAVE to be run individually by each cable company.

Additionally, the programs would be delivered to you via the cable company's private network. It would not transit the public internet. Imagine if everything you recorded and watched went over the internet. With most cable companies imposing caps, this would be untenable. This is another reason a retail TiVo cloud DVR would not work.

So, building this and releasing it to cable companies doesn't mean they can just also release it for retail customers. As a matter of fact, it means that they specifically could not offer it to retail customers.

The only way any "cloud" DVR service would work for retail customers would be for your TiVo to record the program locally, and then upload it back to TiVo's servers. If this is the architecture they've picked, then TiVo is going out of business. If it's not, then there is no way to offer it to retail customers.


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As I said, I do expect that TiVo is focusing on providing small MSO providers a turn key solution - I do see value for TiVo in expanding that functionality and apparently others do as well.

http://www.theverge.com/2014/1/7/528...and/in/5042993



Then TiVo might as well close up shop, with players like Sony going after the retail market with cloud based DVR's. Must just be me (oh and Sony) that thinks cloud based solutions might generate revenue.

If Sony is going to provide this service, how far behind can Microsoft with the Xbox One be?
The difference, though, is that these services are all licensing the content. The only way for TiVo to compete, in the retail space, would be to license content and bypass the cable companies entirely, which is what Sony and Microsoft are doing. TiVo isn't likely to go down that route
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Old 01-07-2014, 01:49 PM   #71
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A better write-up on the announced solution:

http://techcrunch.com/2014/01/07/tivo-network-dvr/

Answers some of the questions already posed. "Will only be offered through cable providers... (aka partners)."
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Old 01-07-2014, 02:08 PM   #72
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We have a big loss with cloud type service no matter how delivered, we have a loss of control, ads can be inserted and like a BD player you may be restricted from fast forwarding them like trying to fast forward the FBI warning on a BD disk, and getting the message operation not allowed.
For me no thanks.
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Old 01-07-2014, 02:16 PM   #73
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A better write-up on the announced solution:

http://techcrunch.com/2014/01/07/tivo-network-dvr/

Answers some of the questions already posed. "Will only be offered through cable providers... (aka partners)."
Nice article, it definitely helps define the intent of the product.

I said several times that I was aware that TiVo was directing this toward the Cable Co’s, my point was and still is that the technology could bleed over to the retail services. Now that may mean that TiVo offers the service or it may mean that your CableCo may offer the service.

It may also mean that the service will never come to the retail TiVo, but I suggest NEVER is a very long time and Cloud as an add on service has value.
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Old 01-07-2014, 02:34 PM   #74
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Yes it's directed toward the cable companies, it's really the only thing tha makes sense. When I used my BoxeeTV, that was a cloud based DVR. Of course it's not around any more but it certainly worked.
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Old 01-07-2014, 02:47 PM   #75
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Yes it's directed toward the cable companies, it's really the only thing tha makes sense. When I used my BoxeeTV, that was a cloud based DVR. Of course it's not around any more but it certainly worked.
The thing about CLOUD BASED SOLUTIONS....

1. I hate "On Demand" but have had to use it in the past to "catch-up".
2. I hate ads, so skipping them is essential for me, can I do that with cloud based storage?
3. How clunky is the interface?

If one 1-3 are answered.... Maybe. I think we should look at this in a positive light. TiVo is trying to enhance their revenue stream, in order to support all their products, including the ones we SO love.
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Old 01-07-2014, 03:31 PM   #76
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my point was and still is that the technology could bleed over to the retail services. Now that may mean that TiVo offers the service or it may mean that your CableCo may offer the service.
But it specifically can NOT be offered by TiVo directly to consumers because of the way it works. It REQUIRES that the cable company operate the storage backend and that the DVR software be running in the cable company's system.
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Old 01-07-2014, 04:36 PM   #77
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I'm OTA Roamio anyway so this matters nothing to me
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Old 01-07-2014, 04:49 PM   #78
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There are two reasons MSOs want cloud based DVRs...

The main reason is they can offer DVR as a service without having to upgrade the users equipment. The DVR essentially becomes a VOD channel. The cost of the individual boxes become cheaper, they can convert customers without having to send out techs, and they don't have to deal with all the costly DVR equipment and potential failures.

The other reason is it offers them control. With cloud based DVRs they have complete control over all aspects of the DRM and can even insert custom ads and/or prevent you from skipping the ads.

When these services become available most people will just accept them because they don't know any better and it'll make their bill cheaper. Eventually the MSOs will use it as an excuse to stop supporting CableCARDs and we'll be stuck with this as our only option for DVRs.
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Old 01-07-2014, 04:58 PM   #79
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There are two reasons MSOs want cloud based DVRs...

The main reason is they can offer DVR as a service without having to upgrade the users equipment. The DVR essentially becomes a VOD channel. The cost of the individual boxes become cheaper, they can convert customers without having to send out techs, and they don't have to deal with all the costly DVR equipment and potential failures.

The other reason is it offers them control. With cloud based DVRs they have complete control over all aspects of the DRM and can even insert custom ads and/or prevent you from skipping the ads.

When these services become available most people will just accept them because they don't know any better and it'll make their bill cheaper. Eventually the MSOs will use it as an excuse to stop supporting CableCARDs and we'll be stuck with this as our only option for DVRs.
I think MSO-developed applications for multiple devices will be the death knell for the retail initiative. The FCC has always shown a lack of understanding when it comes to the fact that it's not just that we want to buy our boxes instead of renting from the cable company, it's a diversity in UX (which that diversity in UX is exactly what the MSOs want to kill, they hate that worse than the lost STB rental revenues)
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Old 01-07-2014, 06:12 PM   #80
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I don't suppose they'll announce android streaming at CES?
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Old 01-07-2014, 08:32 PM   #81
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Tivo's newest video on this world record attempt:

TiVo TV Binge-Viewing Guinness World Record Attempt: Day One
You need to upgrade your Flash Player

Nice to see the guy from 1 vs 100 on xbox 360 (which I loved and was sad to see go) found another job.
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Old 01-07-2014, 11:13 PM   #82
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Whatever it is will probably only be half baked.
Maybe we should have sent TiVo some nice oven mitts for Christmas.


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Old 01-08-2014, 12:05 AM   #83
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I don't suppose they'll announce android streaming at CES?
I think it is possible. I'm guessing they will also be announcing an updated iOS app (with an updated look for iOS 7) that supports streaming over mobile. However, they could announce both of those after CES for all I know.
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Old 01-08-2014, 12:09 AM   #84
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87 hours is crazy! I hope someone brought some meth.
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Old 01-08-2014, 12:20 AM   #85
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87 hours is crazy! I hope someone brought some meth.
If I were going to sit down for 87 hours of binge watching, you can bet the blue stuff would be on the playlist
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Old 01-08-2014, 05:27 AM   #86
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I volunteered today & was one of the 'witnesses' who watches them to confirm they stay awake & are watching TV. It's going to be tough for them to make it, as I saw signs of fading at 24 hours. That said, I wish them all the best.

Kind of a boring gig, but it did get me a pass into CES, so I'll explore the show the next couple days. Another TivoCommunity member had the time slot before me. My time slot didn't finish until after the show closed today, but one of the tech guys thought they may have some promos going during the show. I'll ask tomorrow & may sign up if they have something decent. If all goes well, I may activate a couple Roamios & a Mini or two.
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Old 01-08-2014, 06:12 AM   #87
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I volunteered today & was one of the 'witnesses' who watches them to confirm they stay awake & are watching TV. It's going to be tough for them to make it, as I saw signs of fading at 24 hours. That said, I wish them all the best.

Kind of a boring gig, but it did get me a pass into CES, so I'll explore the show the next couple days. Another TivoCommunity member had the time slot before me. My time slot didn't finish until after the show closed today, but one of the tech guys thought they may have some promos going during the show. I'll ask tomorrow & may sign up if they have something decent. If all goes well, I may activate a couple Roamios & a Mini or two.
Is there a record for watching people try and break a record for watching tv?
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Old 01-08-2014, 10:18 AM   #88
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I'm becoming more and more skeptical that TiVo will announce anything at CES. Pretty disappointing.

Personally was hoping for Amazon Prime Streaming, OOH streaming over cellular, and the ability to direct connect to my Roamio without a proxy.

Pretty sure I'm going to be disappointed.
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Old 01-08-2014, 10:23 AM   #89
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What do you mean direct connect without a proxy?
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Old 01-08-2014, 10:29 AM   #90
Dan203
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JosephB View Post
What do you mean direct connect without a proxy?
The current out of home streaming uses a proxy. There is evidence on the full system information screen that they are/were working on a method that used port forwarding on your router instead.
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