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Old 10-31-2014, 07:09 AM   #1
tc2014
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bad USB ports? Need help with TA - RESOLVED

I have (3) Tivo HD and (1) new Roamio Plus. The (3) Tivo HD have been running great for about a year on cable card + tuning adapter. All the cable cards and tuning adapters are Motorola M-card FW 6.25 and Motorola MTR700 FW 1.37. Right now, I am trying to get my brand new Roamio up and running the same way. I am in Tulsa, OK on Cox cable.

My Roamio symptoms are simple: whenever I plug a Motorola MTR700 Tuning adapter into my new Roamio, the roamio doesn't recognize there is a tuning adapter being plugged in. I have tried 5 different cablecard + tuning adapater combos of which (3) are known and working in my current Tivo HD's. The other (2) are my self install kit for the Roamio and the swap unit the technician tried while he was out. The Tivo Roamio reacts the same way to all (5) TA's when inserted: it doesn't recognize the TA and the TA starts to slow flash red. Since it's the TA or USB port that seems to be the issue, the Roamio can't tune to any SDV channels. It gets protected non-SDV channels just fine (ie: A&E, ESPN) but anything that requires SDV can't be tuned because the Roamio doesn't even see a tuning adapter device connected.

If I plug in my Tivo HD's with the new cable card + tuning adapter combo that I just tried on the Roamio, it works fine. All of my Tivo HD's "detect" that the tuning adapter and can tune in SDV channels without problem. I don't get why the cablecard + TA combo works fine in my Tivo HD's but doesn't work in my brand new Roamio Plus.

When I called Tivo to discuss this, they asked me to test if the USB ports can charge. They can charge. I don't know what this tells me but I thought I would write it down in case it was important.

I am stumped. Since my Tivo Roamio doesn't recognize when the TA is plugged in, I have no idea how to go about diagnosing this. Based on what I am seeing, the issue does not appear to be on the cable company's side but I don't know that for sure. If I can't get the Tivo Roamio to recognize the TA, then there is no point in having a Tivo and I'll have to send my new roamio back. I don't want to do that so I hope someone smarter than me can lead me to the promised land. Anyone else seen or heard of this issue?


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Old 10-31-2014, 07:22 AM   #2
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Quick clarification

When the TA slow flashes red, it still has a solid yellow LED lit up as well. The red flash only appears when I plug the unit into the Roamio.

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Old 10-31-2014, 01:27 PM   #3
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Sounds like a bad Roamio to me. I would have it replaced.

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Old 11-01-2014, 08:14 AM   #4
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Thanks Dave. Appreciate you taking the time to read and comment. That is the route I am taking. Tivo agreed to replace Roamio under warranty. I'll report back whether or not that fixes the problem.

Since I have a known working cable card + TA (tested in my other Tivo HDs), I should be able to pop the CC + TA combo into the new Roamio and call Cox to have it paired. Since the equipment is provisioned already, it should be easy to pair everything.

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Old 11-03-2014, 12:04 AM   #5
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As I am waiting for my replacement Roamio Plus, I have been reading up on the tuning adapter Cox gave me (Motorola MTR700). I am beginning to wonder if this is a Roamio problem or a bug with the MTR700. Some of the SiliconDust HDHomeRun people had trouble similar to mine and the SiliconDust engineers looked at it quite extensively.

This has me wondering:
http://www.silicondust.com/forum2/vi...p?f=67&t=17751

This too:
https://www.silicondust.com/forum2/v...p?f=44&t=17678

Why? Because when I plug in the tuning adapter and it flashes red, I can see it on the Roamio DVR Diagnostics page at the very bottom. It shows "Connection State: Initializing" when the USB from the adapter is plugged in. It shows disconnected when it's unplugged. So the Roamio is definitely seeing when I plug and unplug the tuning adapter but for some reason the tuning adapter's status never gets past initialization. Incidentally, when I first plug the tuning adapter in and watch that "connection state" field, the following text flashes quickly: "Fatal error no HMAC key sent" before it shows Initializing.

The threads above talks about some kind of bug or security certificate issue with MTR700's after a certain date that won't allow the tuning adapter to work with the host device. That made me wonder if that is what I am seeing. The symptoms seem very similar.

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Old 11-03-2014, 01:07 PM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tc2014 View Post
As I am waiting for my replacement Roamio Plus, I have been reading up on the tuning adapter Cox gave me (Motorola MTR700). I am beginning to wonder if this is a Roamio problem or a bug with the MTR700. Some of the SiliconDust HDHomeRun people had trouble similar to mine and the SiliconDust engineers looked at it quite extensively. This has me wondering: http://www.silicondust.com/forum2/vi...p?f=67&t=17751 This too: https://www.silicondust.com/forum2/v...p?f=44&t=17678 Why? Because when I plug in the tuning adapter and it flashes red, I can see it on the Roamio DVR Diagnostics page at the very bottom. It shows "Connection State: Initializing" when the USB from the adapter is plugged in. It shows disconnected when it's unplugged. So the Roamio is definitely seeing when I plug and unplug the tuning adapter but for some reason the tuning adapter's status never gets past initialization. Incidentally, when I first plug the tuning adapter in and watch that "connection state" field, the following text flashes quickly: "Fatal error no HMAC key sent" before it shows Initializing. The threads above talks about some kind of bug or security certificate issue with MTR700's after a certain date that won't allow the tuning adapter to work with the host device. That made me wonder if that is what I am seeing. The symptoms seem very similar.
Interesting, but if it's a bad TA, why do they work connected to your TiVoHD though?

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Old 11-03-2014, 01:51 PM   #7
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Great question. I don't know why the TA works fine with the TivoHD's and not with the Roamio. But it does. Just to be sure, I tested again last night and was able to tune SDV channels on the TivoHD using the CC + TA from the Roamio. Once I confirmed the TivoHD detected the tuning adapter and showed SDV channels, I pulled the CC + TA out and put it back into the Roamio. The Roamio showed the same symptoms as above.

(sidenote: after I did my testing I called Cox and had them re-pair all the cablecards. All cards, including the Roamio's card, paired fine and all Tivos confirmed the same. The roamio still can't see the tuning adapter but it did pair to the cablecard, according to the Conditional Access screen)

I sure hope this is a hardware USB problem that a new Roamio will fix but I must admit I am not encouraged by the evidence or my testing. The new Roamio should arrive today so I will update more after I plug everything into the new Roamio and fire it up.

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Old 11-03-2014, 02:29 PM   #8
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if it was a widespread cox or roamio problem one or the other would/should know about it. This is the first I've seen this issue even though I have 2 Premieres. I would say bad tivo hardware or damaged.

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Old 11-03-2014, 10:07 PM   #9
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I received the new Roamio and unfortunately, it did not fix the problem.

I am beginning more and more to think it is related to the SiliconDust threads I previously posted. I will definitely need help Tivo's help to get this resolved. Do they monitor these forums or is there someone I can contact who can assist further?

P.S. Am I the only person in Tulsa with a Roamio Plus + Motorola Mcard + Motorola MTR700 from Cox?


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Old 11-03-2014, 10:27 PM   #10
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Here is what I think the issue is (from the SiliconDust thread):

Quote:
Update 9/3/2014:
After a lot of testing we can now reliably reproduce the problem. CONFIRMED as Mythbusters would say.

Every HDHomeRun (and every TiVo, cable STB, etc) contains a unique security certificate used for authentication, similar to how SSL works. These certificates are generated by a third party signing authority.

From what we have been able to determine, if the security certificate is from Jan 2014 or earlier everything works fine...
Cablecard authenticates the device certificate OK.
Cisco TR authenticates the device certificate OK.
Motorola TR authenticates the device certificate OK.

If the security certificate is from May 2014 or later the Motorola TR is unhappy...
Cablecard authenticates the device certificate OK.
Cisco TR authenticates the device certificate OK.
MTR700 TR does not authenticate the device certificate.

We are working with industry resources to further isolate the problem.
That would explain, exactly, why my tuning adapters would work on the TivoHD's but not work on the Roamio Plus. The Roamio plus is using a newer cert after May 2014.

Again, I probably need Tivo's help at this point so I hope they read these forums. All the SiliconDust stuff was being done back in Aug/Sept so maybe fixes are already available. Who knows.

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Old 11-04-2014, 01:18 AM   #11
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Ok thanks. That would explain it! Great job investigating! I've owned many Cablecard tuners including tivos, SD HDHRs, Cetons, etc. and this is the first I am hearing any of this.

I would say open a ticket with TiVo tech support and share this exact info you shared here. I did this previously with them when the Roamio was new and had issues with tuning problems. The Ceton and SD folks wrote into their SW/FW for it to perform retries on the Tuning Adapter/Resolver to make sure channels ended up tuning properly. TiVo was able to then implement a similar fix which really helped until many of the MSOs finally released newer FW on their TAs to fix the issue.

Contact TiVo Margret on this forum if you have trouble getting a ticket opened.

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Old 11-04-2014, 08:02 AM   #12
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Sounds good I will do that. I already have a support ticket open for the replacement Roamio so I will call and update it to make sure it is still open and being worked.

For what it's worth, I found another case of what appears to be the same issue over on the Cox forums. See here:
http://forums.cox.com/forum_home/tv_.../4/t/7035.aspx

Can't say if the person is in Tulsa but the symptoms they describe are the same as what I am seeing.

I sure hope we can resolve this because I really don't want to send my Roamio + minis back. My 30 day return guarantee is up on Nov 24 so the clock is ticking....

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Old 11-04-2014, 10:56 AM   #13
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Support ticket has been updated and I also emailed Margret. It's in Tivo's hands now so hopefully they will respond soon and give us an update on what they find out.

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Old 11-04-2014, 11:22 AM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tc2014 View Post
Sounds good I will do that. I already have a support ticket open for the replacement Roamio so I will call and update it to make sure it is still open and being worked.

I sure hope we can resolve this because I really don't want to send my Roamio + minis back. My 30 day return guarantee is up on Nov 24 so the clock is ticking....
If they are really working the issue, the support people will usually give you an extension on the 30-day return guarantee, if you call in before it is up and explain the situation and that you would like an extra 30-days to see if tivo can resolve the issue...

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Old 11-04-2014, 11:54 AM   #15
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Already done. Thanks for the suggestion.

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Old 11-04-2014, 06:33 PM   #16
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I will have to look when I get home to see what model of tuning adapter I have, but I have a Roamio Plus that I have had since Sept 2013 that works with no problem with the Cox tuning adapter in Tulsa. I wonder if it works since I set it up a year ago?

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Old 11-04-2014, 07:18 PM   #17
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wickerbill, thanks for posting as it's good to know the combo is possible/workable in Tulsa. If I can ask you to test one other thing: does your Roamio detect when you plug the USB and unplug the USB of the tuning adapter? ie: does it immediately pop up a screen telling the tuning adapter is connected?

My amateur understanding of the issue from the other threads is that each Roamio has a unique certificate that it's born with and the certificate has a date on it. The certificate is used when the tuning adapter connects to the Roamio via USB. Apparently, the MTR700 has a bug that won't accept the certificates presented by Roamio's (or any other device for that matter) after a certain date. I can't tell from the other SiliconDust threads if that date is Jan 2014 or May 2014 but it does say their engineers were able to reproduce the bug and confirm it.

I expect your Roamio would work fine with the MTR700 since it surely has a certificate dated before Jan 2014/May 2014. The bug (if that's what it is) that is in the MTR700 wouldn't come into play. If I understand correctly, the bug is that the MTR700 is rejecting certificates that are after a certain date. This may explain why all (3) of my TivoHD's work fine with the same tuning adapter(s) - their certificates have an older date just like your Roamio Pro.

I am anxious for the Tivo engineers to help but in the meantime please check back and let us know what you found out. Thanks.

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Old 11-04-2014, 11:53 PM   #18
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I'm having exactly the same issue you are:

Had 2 TiVo HD's and one Premiere working flawlessly on cable card and TA on Charter here in Rochester, MN for past 3 years. Upgraded to Roamio, and the Tuning adapter is just not recognized. I too tried other USB devices in the USB ports, (Flash Drive), and immediately after plugging those, got a message that external storage that was connected to USB was not supported. That told me that the Roamio could talk well enough on USB to know it was a storage device.

When I went deep into the Settings and checked the DVR Diagnostics, and scrolled way to the bottom, I noted the TA STATUS saying "Initializing" and then saw it briefly flash an error saying "Unable to Authenticate." Then back to initializing over and over again.

Net, this seems to imply a security issue, which is exactly the issue you pointed out in the threads that were pointed out from SiliconDust.

I have Charter on the hook to update me to FW 1.39 on my TA's, but I'm not sure that is going to be enough. It is unclear to me that 1.39 FW is sufficient.

If you call TiVo tomorrow, you can let them know to check this forum, you are not alone. I'll post back here if I get 1.39 TA FW on my MTR700 and if it made any difference.

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Old 11-05-2014, 08:13 AM   #19
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Thanks for posting. Tivo is aware of the issue and this thread. I also emailed Margret to let her know and she replied back that they are working on it. Please post back what you find out about 1.39 if you are able to test that. It's good to know that I am not the only person seeing this issue.

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Old 11-05-2014, 10:05 AM   #20
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Can you PM me Margaret's e-mail...I submitted an e-mail ticket this morning to TiVo support, because I was not sure the phone support folks were capturing all my debug data properly. I would like to turn her on to my ticket number.

I will surely post back about 1.39 FW, but I suspect this is not recent enough, or the SiliconDust folks would not have experienced their problems (Moto/Arris) would have just recommended "Upgrade TA to 1.39. 1.39 seems to have released around July of 2014. Issue discovered in Sep 2014.

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Old 11-05-2014, 12:32 PM   #21
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Done. Please keep us posted regarding what you find out about 1.39. Thanks.

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Old 11-05-2014, 02:45 PM   #22
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We are now tracking this issue and looking at options for resolution.

I'll keep you posted.

--Margret

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Old 11-06-2014, 02:14 PM   #23
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Need Arris firmware update 1.40

Here's the story:

Motorola/ARRIS Tuning Adapters need to be updated to version 1.40 of the firmware, in order to be compatible with current CableLabs device certificates.

We are reaching out to all cable operators to notify them of this issue, and to urge them to update to the latest Arris firmware.

If you are experiencing this issue, you may want to contact your cable operator and request the firmware update. (I don't know which ones are in a position to update right away, but I expect it would be helpful to have a ticket open so they are aware you are in urgent need of the firmware update.) Feel free to share my email (margret@tivo.com) with anyone you contact trying to resolve this. I am happy to provide additional details to your cable operator.

In addition, you may want to send me an email with the subject "<your cable company name> TA firmware 1.4". Include in that email:
- name on your cable company account
- phone number on your cable company account
- email address on your cable company account
- an incident/ticket number if you've opened one with your cable company
- your TiVo TSN

We may be able to forward your info to your cable company as well, with hopes they can target your Tuning Adapter for an early firmware update.

I'm so sorry for all of this trouble!

--Margret

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Old 11-06-2014, 10:32 PM   #24
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Thank you for having your team check into this and getting back to me so quickly. I'll open a ticket with Cox first thing in the morning and start the process of getting an updated TA.

I'll send you an email once I have the Cox ticket number and you can forward my information to them in hopes that it will help push things along.

Thanks again for your prompt attention to this issue.

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Old 11-06-2014, 10:33 PM   #25
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Chiming in as an affected user in Dallas, TX on Time Warner with Motorola Tuning Adapter. I have been experiencing this exact issue after trying to upgrade from an HD to a Roamio. Glad to see there is a possible fix.

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Old 11-07-2014, 09:35 AM   #26
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I spoke to Cox this morning and have a service call for tomorrow at 10-12a CST. I made sure they understood the issue and the need for ver 1.40 firmware on the tuning adapter AND the need for a senior cablecard tech. According to the rep, she placed notes all over the service call record about needing 1.40 and even went so far as to state they shouldn't bother rolling a truck unless he has the 1.40 version. We'll see what happens. I'll post an update after the tech gets done. It will be a very quick call if they show up without an updated TA.

Margret - I emailed you details with work order number, etc as requested.

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Old 11-08-2014, 01:46 PM   #27
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Cox sent two technicians today and we are 0 for 2. The first tech had never seen a cablecard so he was a no-go from the start. The second escalated technician was very helpful and understood the issue clearly after I explained it to him. I printed this thread so he can return and give it to his supervisor but he was unable to provide a 1.40 TA. While on the phone with his supervisor, his supervisor claimed he could not provide 1.40 firmware either.

2nd tech said he would call or have someone call me on Monday after he got in touch with Cox engineering and gave them materials I passed along. He explained that this issue needs to go to Cox engineering and not the first line call center (I agree! How?). We'll see if I hear back on Monday. If not, I will call and try to navigate the bureaucracy again.

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Old 11-08-2014, 07:18 PM   #28
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Cox sent two technicians today and we are 0 for 2. The first tech had never seen a cablecard so he was a no-go from the start. The second escalated technician was very helpful and understood the issue clearly after I explained it to him. I printed this thread so he can return and give it to his supervisor but he was unable to provide a 1.40 TA. While on the phone with his supervisor, his supervisor claimed he could not provide 1.40 firmware either.

2nd tech said he would call or have someone call me on Monday after he got in touch with Cox engineering and gave them materials I passed along. He explained that this issue needs to go to Cox engineering and not the first line call center (I agree! How?). We'll see if I hear back on Monday. If not, I will call and try to navigate the bureaucracy again.
I'm having same issue with Time Warner Cable. I understand completely though, they can't just release new firmware to their customers without doing some QA and regression testing. With so few users affected they can't risk a larger potential problem. As bad as we want the firmware update we're going to have to wait for release processes to work.

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Old 11-09-2014, 09:30 AM   #29
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I'm having a hard time understanding why Tivo would change the cert on new Roamio such that it requires a firmware that isn't even out in the wild yet.

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Old 11-09-2014, 01:29 PM   #30
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I'm having a hard time understanding why Tivo would change the cert on new Roamio such that it requires a firmware that isn't even out in the wild yet.
There might be some sort of technical reason, but it does seem to go against the "if it ain't broke, don't fix it" maxim.

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