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Old 11-28-2013, 10:01 AM   #31
atmuscarella
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Originally Posted by DigitalDawn View Post
I think LG has a 77-inch 4K OLED coming out. Don't remember f it's curved or not.

BTW, as stated here, there's a 4K disc format in the works, and the ATSC is working on a future (2017-2018) 4K standard. It's my understanding that H.265 can fit two 4K broadcasts in the same space as a single 1080i MPEG2 broadcast channel.

So by no means is 4K a dead end.
I don't think 4K is dead but I don't think it is going to be main stream anytime soon. All we have right now are some TVs that don't really have (& likely never will have) a viable way to access native 4K content.

Think about what has to happen. First they have to finish developing the tech (h.265, HDMI 2.0, at a minimum) and then basically everything has to be replaced. For the consumer every device they have TV, blu-ray player, receiver, etc., for the OTA broadcaster most or all of their broadcast equipment, for the cable & Satellite provider all their equipment.

So no 4K certainly isn't dead but the only play anyone has now to "future proof" themselves is to buy nothing.
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Old 11-28-2013, 11:47 AM   #32
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Indeed, considering that the file size of a single movie shot in 4K can be up to 250GB (maybe even larger than that).
I don't think they make a hard drive big enough to make a 4K DVR worth owning.
That's why they need H.265. H.265 is suppose to offer 50% more compression compared to H.264. 4K has 4x the number of pixels if 1080p. A typical 1080p BD movie encoded in H.264 requires about 35GB if space. So they're hoping that H.265 will allow them to compress the same movie at 4K resolution in the 70-100GB range.
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Old 11-28-2013, 04:03 PM   #33
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What are the chances that these new Roamio's will be easily upgradable to support 4K HD?
I have read several articles recently, stating that 4K content is not that far down the road in 2014.

With the cost of getting to 4K viewing, I would hate to buy 2 Roamio's now, only to need to buy more in 18-24months.
That is assuming Tivo can have product out that quickly.

Thoughts?
So just buy your Roamios now, use them for five years, then reevaluate 4k. By then you may have forgotten about 4k, or will need to wait at least another five years before widespread mainstream content becomes available.
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Old 11-29-2013, 06:50 AM   #34
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I don't think 4K is dead but I don't think it is going to be main stream anytime soon. All we have right now are some TVs that don't really have (& likely never will have) a viable way to access native 4K content.

Think about what has to happen. First they have to finish developing the tech (h.265, HDMI 2.0, at a minimum) and then basically everything has to be replaced. For the consumer every device they have TV, blu-ray player, receiver, etc., for the OTA broadcaster most or all of their broadcast equipment, for the cable & Satellite provider all their equipment.

So no 4K certainly isn't dead but the only play anyone has now to "future proof" themselves is to buy nothing.
Rewind to 1999-2000.
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Old 11-29-2013, 10:42 AM   #35
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4K is a when question, not an if question.

Netflix will stream 4K in 2014. A 4K bd standard will be finalized in 2014. The hdmi 2.0 spec was recently finalized and you can expect just about every product category to be announced with hdmi 2.0 at CES in January. (And btw both Sony and Samsung are providing an upgrade path to hdmi 2.0 for their existing sets).
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Old 11-29-2013, 11:26 AM   #36
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4K is a when question, not an if question.

Netflix will stream 4K in 2014. A 4K bd standard will be finalized in 2014. The hdmi 2.0 spec was recently finalized and you can expect just about every product category to be announced with hdmi 2.0 at CES in January. (And btw both Sony and Samsung are providing an upgrade path to hdmi 2.0 for their existing sets).
That statement was also made about SVHS VCRs and it happened but few went to the party, unless 4K is the only option IMHO it will never make it as it is not needed, except for big home movie systems. (I don't predict past 10 years) HDTV was a big step up for almost any screen size.
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Old 11-29-2013, 01:26 PM   #37
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Les,

I would normally agree with you -- just look at 3D. But when you get the ATSC planning on a new standard to supplant the current TV system, one would assume that it's more than a fad. This one has teeth.
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Old 11-29-2013, 03:30 PM   #38
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4K is a when question, not an if question.
I agree with this.

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Netflix will stream 4K in 2014. A 4K bd standard will be finalized in 2014.
It will be interesting to see how low of a bit rate people will find acceptable when they have spent 1000s of $$s on a 65" or large 4K TV.

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Les,

I would normally agree with you -- just look at 3D. But when you get the ATSC planning on a new standard to supplant the current TV system, one would assume that it's more than a fad. This one has teeth.
I wouldn't get to excited. They will finish ATSC 2.0 first (which is backward compatible and has nothing to do with 4K). The earliest anyone is going to see ATSC 3.0 (needed for 4K) is maybe 2017 and because it is not backwards compatible, it will be interesting to see how fast it is implemented without the Gov. forcing the issue.

The reality is that TV Manufactures will want a premium for 4K for as long as possible. Which means most people buying smaller sets (under 60") will not touch it. At some point the cost may be lowered enough for it to become main stream but I am guessing we are 5-10 years out from that happening.
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Old 11-29-2013, 05:08 PM   #39
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Netflix will stream 4K in 2014..
I'll bet most people's "high-speed" internet connections would get exposed as not being fast enough to handle it.
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Old 11-29-2013, 09:23 PM   #40
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Does anyone know what video processing chip the roamio uses?
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Old 11-30-2013, 01:56 AM   #41
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Les,

I would normally agree with you -- just look at 3D. But when you get the ATSC planning on a new standard to supplant the current TV system, one would assume that it's more than a fad. This one has teeth.
I did not know this (about ATSC planning 4K as a new standard for all TVs, a change in 10 years, hard to see that happing but what do I know as the old standard lasted over 60 years).
I can't believe I will have to change all my home TVs again in the next 10 years, I just dumped the last of my tube type TVs about 6 months ago.
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Old 11-30-2013, 02:52 AM   #42
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The reason we all had to switch to digital TV sets was because Congress mandated the switch to digital TV.

I very much doubt Congress will mandate a switch to 4K TV standards, so show carriers (over-the-air, cable, and satellite) will be very slow to adopt 4K resolution transmissions until 4K-capable TV sets have clearly taken over the market.

If we get to the point where 4K consumer equipment has taken over, I expect prices will be reasonable at that point.
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Old 11-30-2013, 01:10 PM   #43
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Some things could change but I just don’t see it happening anytime soon. Bandwidth is still too precious. Cable and satellite got the standard lowered so they could cram in more channels. If you what the 4k like experience right now watch a good quality Blu-ray. Everything else is really pretty bad. Find that same movie recorded on your TiVo and it will look bad… If you are just a few feet from the TV. If you are at the 8-9 Ft recommended for a 60”-ish 1080p TV, you won’t notice as much but get up next to the TV and it’s bad. I’m moving shows from my HD TiVo’s as I’ve got a Roamio now and the bit rate ranges from 8 Mbps (yes 8!)to 18 Mbps with most show at 12 to 14 Mbps. At 12 to 14 Mbps that’s like 5GB an hour. The Blu-ray movies I moved to the NAS are like 10-15GB an hour or more and are in many cases much better transfers. It’s not as bad as with music but MP3s have kind of killed the idea of good quality or what is acceptable. Over compressed cable and satellite along with streaming through Netfix or Amazon and others along with pirating have really lowered the bar and I don’t know if the 4k TV and hardware manufactures can drum up enough buyers to really push the tech. I just get the feeling that 4k TV at 8 or 9 Ft would look the same as 1080p that’s not over compressed. Even if you get true 4k video from Disc you’ll need a 120” display or have to set 3Ft from your 70” 4k TV to see the extra detail.
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Old 12-01-2013, 02:07 AM   #44
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Was in Japan a few weeks ago and they're already talking about commercial broadcast of 8K by 2020. I think 4K and 8K will happen just because the costs of manufacturing will keep dropping to make them affordable, and the content will follow when it can.

Look, 10 years ago my brother -in-law bought a high-end Sony Trinitron 32" tube HDTV. Was fairly expensive, doesn't even have HDMI! Couldn't even imagine that we'd have 70" LED's for $1500 a decade later. Or higher resolution than that Sony on a 4" phone. What seems improbable now will be mundane 10 years from now....
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Old 12-01-2013, 07:46 AM   #45
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that we'd have 70" LED's for $1500 a decade later.
We don't. We have 70" LCD.
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Old 12-01-2013, 08:06 AM   #46
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We don't. We have 70" LCD.
But they do have LED backlighting...
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Old 12-01-2013, 09:07 AM   #47
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We don't. We have 70" LCD.
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But they do have LED backlighting...
Why confuse life with facts & details
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Old 12-01-2013, 09:30 AM   #48
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The Sharp 4K computer monitor just came out a few months ago and has already dropped in price from about $5K to about $3K. That's without the Viewsonic monitor even being released yet to compete with it. Heck in a couple of years, the price might drop all the way down to reasonable :-).
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Old 12-01-2013, 11:17 AM   #49
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There were also BF deals on the various 55" 4K sets for $3k, down from the recent regular pricing of $3500. The 65" sets were in the low $4s down from $5k. This trend will only continue, and viciously.

Hell, the 84" LG 4K set can already be had for around $9k, down from the high teens.

Also, never bet against compression algorithms. They get better all the time.

You may not like what this means for your wallet, but it's coming.
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Old 12-02-2013, 06:56 AM   #50
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4K is a when question, not an if question.
Except for the vast majority of video out there that people actually watch (i.e. broadcast HDTV) for the forseeable future, sure.
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Old 12-02-2013, 11:11 AM   #51
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Except for the vast majority of video out there that people actually watch (i.e. broadcast HDTV) for the forseeable future, sure.
Lulz. That could've been said about everything from silent pictures to b&w television to SD. You do know that all studios now master in at least 4K (with many at 8K) and have done so for years now, right?

Tell you what. Bookmark this and let's revisit in a couple years to see how much 4K is out there.
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Old 12-02-2013, 11:18 AM   #52
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Yep, let's. Notice I did say *broadcast TV*, which isn't going to be delivered to the consumer as 4k in, like forever.
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Old 12-02-2013, 03:34 PM   #53
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I agree. 4K in broadcast TV is going to be difficult because of bandwidth. Even with H.265 a 4K stream will need about 50Mbps. ATSC has a max of 19.2Mbps and QAM-64 only has about 26.9Mbps. So it's not even currently possible to broadcast a 4K signal.
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Old 12-02-2013, 04:42 PM   #54
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I agree. 4K in broadcast TV is going to be difficult because of bandwidth. Even with H.265 a 4K stream will need about 50Mbps. ATSC has a max of 19.2Mbps and QAM-64 only has about 26.9Mbps. So it's not even currently possible to broadcast a 4K signal.
Sure it is - you just need to use two channels for one broadcast (an opportunity to get rid of half the channels no one watches anyway :-).
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Old 12-02-2013, 05:15 PM   #55
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Sure it is - you just need to use two channels for one broadcast (an opportunity to get rid of half the channels no one watches anyway :-).
I don't know about other markets, but here there are TONS of unused channels/bandwidth for OTA (and it is a pretty major market- almost 2 million people). We just have NBC, CBS, ABC, PBS, WGNT, FOX, and ION (some of which have sub-channels, but those don't really count in the bandwidth since they are all SD). I haven't dived into the frequencies and such, but I would guess not even 1/3 is taken.
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Old 12-02-2013, 06:25 PM   #56
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I don't know about other markets, but here there are TONS of unused channels/bandwidth for OTA (and it is a pretty major market- almost 2 million people). We just have NBC, CBS, ABC, PBS, WGNT, FOX, and ION (some of which have sub-channels, but those don't really count in the bandwidth since they are all SD). I haven't dived into the frequencies and such, but I would guess not even 1/3 is taken.
When Dan stated "ATSC has a max of 19.2Mbps" he is talking about each frequency, currently the broadcaster can use it all for one channel or break parts of it it out for sub-channels, I do not believe there currently is away to combine the bandwidth from 2 or more frequencies to be used for one channel, so the 19.2 Mbps is a fixed max.

ATSC 3.0, if it ever happens, it is supposed to support video with a resolution of 3840×2160 at 60 fps within the 19.2 Mbps limitation. If broadcasters decided to support that I am sure they would be broadcasting on 2 frequencies one that supports the current standards that older devices could receive and another that supports the ATSC 3.0 standards for the new devices, the same as when they broadcasted an analog signal on one frequency and a digital on another for several years.

It is my understanding that the current ATSC standard was updated in 7/2008 to including support for h.264 1080p broadcasts at up to 60 fps and as far as I know it does not appear to be being used by anyone. So why would I believe that even if ATSC 3.0 shows up in 5+/- years, that the broadcasters will use it?
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Old 12-02-2013, 06:26 PM   #57
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For OTA each station is only allocated enough frequency for 19.2Mbps using ATSC. There is no way to use multiple channels. They'd need a new modulation standard that allows them to get more bandwidth from the frequencies they have.

For cable they could use bonding, like DOCSIS, but that's not currently part of the spec. They'd more likely upgrade to QAM-128 or QAM-256 to get more bandwidth per QAM. However those are much less tolerant to noise and interference, so they may not work all that great on aging infrastructure.

In the short term the only 4K we're going to see is from BD discs.
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Old 12-03-2013, 06:12 AM   #58
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Agreed and we don't have the net cap now to sustain 4k streaming with current protocols, and I seriously doubt that will change substantially in the next couple of years. Not to mention providers reintroducing data caps (Comcast just put a 300GB/mo. cap on us in the ATL).

Discs are going to be it for the near future.
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Old 12-03-2013, 07:24 AM   #59
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I agree. 4K in broadcast TV is going to be difficult because of bandwidth. Even with H.265 a 4K stream will need about 50Mbps. ATSC has a max of 19.2Mbps and QAM-64 only has about 26.9Mbps. So it's not even currently possible to broadcast a 4K signal.
Aren't you thinking about H.264? Some of the stuff I read about 4K said that broadcast 4K with H.264 would need around 50Mb/s of bandwidth, while when using H.265 it would need 20Mb/s to 30Mb/s of bandwidth. Of course that is still higher than the current allotted amount.

Besides if 1080P content can be delivered at 4.3 Mb/s with H.264(like Netflix), I can see 4K video with H.265 easily being at 20Mb/s. Of course I'm not saying the quality will be the best, but it can certainly be done. And broadcasters have rarely been concerned with quality.
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Old 12-03-2013, 08:03 AM   #60
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In the short term the only 4K we're going to see is from BD discs.
I think we will also see streaming, but as with 1080p streaming it will be at a substantially lower bit rate than BD discs.
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