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Old 12-17-2014, 06:58 PM   #1
philt56
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How does a mini pick a tuner?

Suppose someone is watching live tv on the Roamio in one room and someone else is watching with live tv in another room. Suppose the person on the Roamio cycles thru the tuners on the Roamio by hitting "Live TV" button multiple times. Would the mini get disconnected when the tuner it was using is accessed by the Roamio?

I was expecting that there would be something that says have the mini always use tuner 6 so that another room is less likely to conflict? But it looks like this isn't always true.

I sometimes will hit pause while watching live tv, then hit live tv switch to another tuner to check on another channel and then go back to the previous tuner. But it seems like doing that can affect the person watching on the mini. Sounds like using the Info button to see whats on all the tuner and selecting the one to go back to is better than hitting live TV button 6 times?

I just got a Roamio pro and mini so I'm just getting used to having all these tuners. I was used to a 2 tuner Premiere so hitting live tv was just a swap of the 2 tuners. So I'm trying to understand how 2 people can keep from interfering with each other. Of course if the Mini is just streaming to watch a recorded show, no problem.

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Old 12-17-2014, 07:02 PM   #2
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If the Mini is watching live TV the Roamio cannot access that tuner. Hit the Live TV button to your hearts content.

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Old 12-17-2014, 07:16 PM   #3
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Yeah it's simply removed from the pool of tuners the Roamio can access, so there is no way for it to hit the tuner the Mini is using. Min's grab exclusive access to the tuner they get when watching live TV. If the Roamio needs the tuner back to record it prompts them, but if the user refuses then the recording is simply canceled. The only other way a Mini loses a tuner is if it hits the 4 hour timeout. (4 hours of inactivity)

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Old 12-17-2014, 07:33 PM   #4
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Thanks all!

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Old 12-17-2014, 09:32 PM   #5
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Oh one more thing. How does the Mini choose a tuner? Just any one not recording or does any kind of access time come into play. Like oldest one not selected for recording or viewing live tv?

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Old 12-17-2014, 09:59 PM   #6
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It does an electronic equivalent of rock, paper scissors. The tuner that is selected lost

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Old 12-17-2014, 10:01 PM   #7
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It does an electronic equivalent of rock, paper scissors. The tuner that is selected lost
Dang, I thought there was a tiny little dart board in there!

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Old 12-18-2014, 01:09 AM   #8
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Oh one more thing. How does the Mini choose a tuner? Just any one not recording or does any kind of access time come into play. Like oldest one not selected for recording or viewing live tv?
I've noticed that if the last tuner the Mini used is still available, it usually takes that same one back. If not, then it appears to just be random.

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Old 12-23-2014, 04:04 PM   #9
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Tuner allocation - or not?

I was expecting dynamic allocation of tuners, BUT was also expecting that if the mothership Tivo wanted a (4th or 6th) tuner for a pre-programmed recording schedule on it's last available tuner - it would be taken away from someone using Live TV. (with a small warning of course).

IMO - A recording always gets priority - it should be taken away from someone using Live TV... (assuming no other tuners are available - also being recorded on)

So everyone is saying the Mini take what it wants and the main Tivo is left wanting? Might have to rethink this - if this is indeed the case. We have a P4 but maybe need to move to a 6 tuner model if the Mini auto-eats tuners and co-opts recordings with no way to control it.

Quote:
"If the Roamio needs the tuner back to record it prompts them, but if the user refuses then the recording is simply canceled. "
If there is no answer to the prompt (someone fell asleep) which box gets the tuner?
Is there any way to turn OFF the ability to refuse allowing the Main Tivo/tuner to record?

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Old 12-23-2014, 04:22 PM   #10
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The Mini is prompted and if the user does not answer then the default is to release the tuner back to the TiVo. The only way the recording is canceled is if the Mini user specifically answer "no" to the prompt and keeps the tuner.

This is basically the same thing it does if you're watching live TV on the TiVo itself and it needs the tuner for recording.

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Old 12-23-2014, 05:22 PM   #11
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OK thanks Dan - that's what I had hoped. I've seen it ask on the Tivo before but just wasn't sure how the Mini would behave... not bad! :-)

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Old 01-04-2015, 06:31 PM   #12
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Hey Dan203,

Question about this, and I've just gotten off the phone from Tivo a minute ago so I'm really confused at this point. Here is the situation that hopefully you can clear up.

I currently have 2 Roamio Pros, 2 Minis, a Premier, and a Verizon DVR. All of my units are currently on lifetime (including the Verizon which is free for lifetime) except the Premier, which frankly I've waited too long to deal with. It's on month to month.

All units are connected vie ethernet. Each Roamio Pro has one Mini attached to it. It is currently rare at this point for more than one mini to be used at a time.

I'm wanting to eliminate the Premier - either in favor of another mini since it's cheap and it's not an important room, plus potentially a mini in a different room (again, not an important room). But the house is big, and for the money, I wouldn't mind it as a one time expense. Question is about tuner "release".

I posed this question to Tivo: Assume 1 of the Roamios has 4 programs scheduled to record at 8pm. At 7:45pm somebody walks into 2 of the rooms with minis, turns the TV on and checks the weather with weather channel. Then 5 minutes later they turn the TVs off (for the minis). According to Tivo, the minis will "understand that they are not in use because of the loss of HDMI connection to the display" and release the tuner. If the display is on, Tivo said that they will provide a msg to the Mini about a recording conflict, and if nothing is done, the lowest priority recording will not occur.

I think this is incorrect. I think but am not sure that the mini could care less that it lost the HDMI connection to the display, and will not automatically release the tuner on the Roamio. I also thought (as you described) that a lack of action will result in the recording taking priority, so if nobody does anything, the scheduled recording will happen.

I'm thinking about running a few tests but thought I'd ask for clarification. Sorry for the novella. I'm not terribly crazy about the minis - particularly the lack of a better audio out - but it's better than the Premier at this point and cheaper. I just don't want to add another failure mode by accident, where bumping a tivo remote in another room could result in a failed recording.

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Old 01-05-2015, 01:07 PM   #13
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OK, have not gotten an answer yet, however here is what I'm doing now.

I've set a Roamio Pro to record six (6) shows all starting at 1pm eastern. I then turned on a mini which is attached to that Roamio Pro, and went to "Live TV" at 12:45pm.

Both displays are left on.

No recording conflicts in the "To Do list".

At 12:54pm, no messages on either display.

At 12:58pm no messages on either display.

I have not touched either remote since 12:45pm.

At 12:59pm no messages on either display.

30 seconds before 1pm, bot a message on the mini that the Roamio need a tuner to record a show, and gives me a choice to either "Record this show and stop watching live TV" or "not record this show". It does not specify what "show" will or will not be recorded.

If I don't touch anything, the mini released the tuner, the mini display goes to Tivo central, and all six programs record.

So, even after having spent a great deal of time on the phone with Tivo, they still managed to provide a completely inaccurate answer. I would say that the conflict message really ought to come on more than 30 seconds before the recordings are supposed to start, but I'm very happy that the "default" is to protect scheduled recordings.

I'm now going to plan on a couple more tests. I'd like to understand how it will deal with conflicts in the event that I tell the mini not to release the tuner. I'll schedule 6 recordings, set the priorities, but have the one with highest priority start 1 minute after the other 5. I'm curious to see what happens there.

Obviously the whole "know the tuner is not needed because of a lack of HDMI connection if the display is off" is irrelevant.

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Old 01-05-2015, 02:17 PM   #14
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I'd like to understand how it will deal with conflicts in the event that I tell the mini not to release the tuner. I'll schedule 6 recordings, set the priorities, but have the one with highest priority start 1 minute after the other 5. I'm curious to see what happens there.
If the scheduled recordings were part of season passes (which all of my recordings usually are), I think priority would be given to shows based on how you have them arranged in your season pass manager list. For manually scheduled recordings, I'm not sure what the priority would be.

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Old 01-05-2015, 03:56 PM   #15
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I'm not sure about the HDMI thing, they may have added that in a recent update. I tested it once a long time ago and it didn't release the tuner, but like I said they may have added it in a recent software update.

The default action on the prompt is to release the tuner, so if there is no one there to take action then it will release the tuner and allow the recording. The recording will only get canceled if the user specifically selects the option to keep the tuner and cancel the recording.

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Old 01-05-2015, 04:09 PM   #16
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I'm not sure about the HDMI thing, they may have added that in a recent update. I tested it once a long time ago and it didn't release the tuner, but like I said they may have added it in a recent software update.

........
None of my Minis release the tuner with the TV and equipment off. The release in my use has always been based on the timer.

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Old 01-05-2015, 04:20 PM   #17
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Yeah, see my other thread I started just to walk through the testing to confirm stuff...

http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb...d.php?t=524548

Here's how this started.... My remaining Premier is starting to act flak(ier). Was on the phone with Tivo about something it started doing yesterday. Then the bad behavior just stopped - with neither of us doing anything. Started me thinking if it wasn't time to get rid of it. It's the only Tivo I have not on lifetime. Room isn't used all that much, so thought maybe another mini given the lack of importance in that room. But then started wondering about how that might effect tuner allocation with respect to scheduled recordings.

Asked the CSR very specific questions. He put me on hold several times to "research" the answer. Turns out that pretty much every single thing the CSR said was completely wrong - no huge surprise there, but am still amazed at how poor of a job Tivo does in both employee training and documentation. I'm actually glad to confirm that the CSR was wrong. It's better than Tivo developing a solution as stupid, quite frankly, as he was suggesting. I'd rather have the CSR being unskilled at his job, than Tivo overall being that bad in product design!

Anyway, as soon as I got the tests done to validate what "should" happen, I was comfortable enough to order another mini to replace the failing Premier. I'm not entirely crazy about the spinning blue circle things that have been happening but at least I can save a little money with a mini, free lifetime, and a free slider remote.

Hopefully my other thread will help others understand clearly what the combo will do. I'll play around a little when I get an additional mini attached to a Roamio Pro. Right now I have 1 mini attached to each of my 2 Roamio Pros.

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Old 01-05-2015, 04:54 PM   #18
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None of my Minis release the tuner with the TV and equipment off. The release in my use has always been based on the timer.
Just tested. If you turn off the TV no tuner released. If you hit the TiVo button first the tuner is released. TV does not support CEC if that matters.

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Old 01-05-2015, 04:57 PM   #19
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Thanks Joe,

I'll update my other thread that goes through details of use cases and responses.

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Old 01-05-2015, 05:08 PM   #20
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Thanks Joe,

I'll update my other thread that goes through details of use cases and responses.
Add this:
If a Roamio tuner is on the channel it will be used. If the Mini changes to a different channel and that channel is on a different Roamio tuner, it will be used. If a new (non-Roamio) channel is selected, the Roamio gets that channel for the Mini and doesn't change it when the Mini is disconnected. Glad to help, but I like the dart board better.

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Old 01-05-2015, 05:20 PM   #21
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Add this:
If a Roamio tuner is on the channel it will be used. If the Mini changes to a different channel and that channel is on a different Roamio tuner, it will be used. If a new (non-Roamio) channel is selected, the Roamio gets that channel for the Mini and doesn't change it when the Mini is disconnected. Glad to help, but I like the dart board better.
Joe, I'm not sure the above is correct..... I think you're saying this as an illustration.

Roamio has a tuner on channel 502.

Mini tunes to 502.

A single tuner is used to display channel 502 to both Roamio and Mini.


I do not believe this is correct - no insult intended - but I really don't think that's how it works. And frankly, I think I've proven it.

If that were correct, assuming the mini was tuned to one of the channels that the Roamio was scheduled to record, I should not have gotten a message telling me I needed to kill Live TV - until I tried to change to a channel not being recorded. However, that is not what happened. In fact, the mini WAS tuned to one of the channels being recorded. 30 seconds prior to the scheduled recording, the mini had a choice of killing live TV or killing the scheduled recording.

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Old 01-05-2015, 05:32 PM   #22
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Joe, I'm not sure the above is correct..... I think you're saying this as an illustration.

Roamio has a tuner on channel 502.

Mini tunes to 502.

A single tuner is used to display channel 502 to both Roamio and Mini.

I do not believe this is correct - no insult intended - but I really don't think that's how it works. And frankly, I think I've proven it.
No problem. I went downstair to my Mini and turned on the TV and selected Live TV. It was on A&E. I moved it (with the guide) to msnbc. I then hit TiVo and turned off TV. Upstairs again and I hit right arrow. It showed msnbc, A&E, TWC and CBS. Nothing reserved.

Then I went downstairs again, turned on TV, selected Live TV and used guide to select CNBC. I then hit TiVo, turned off TV and went back to Roamio. I now had msnbc, A&E, TWC and CNBC. Nothing reserved. I was not doing, nor do I plan to test, the effect of recording. I usually just let it time out, but I was curious too.

I believe the tuner selection process is quite good. It's approaching magic.

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Old 01-05-2015, 06:01 PM   #23
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No problem. I went downstair to my Mini and turned on the TV and selected Live TV. It was on A&E. I moved it (with the guide) to msnbc. I then hit TiVo and turned off TV. Upstairs again and I hit right arrow. It showed msnbc, A&E, TWC and CBS. Nothing reserved.

Then I went downstairs again, turned on TV, selected Live TV and used guide to select CNBC. I then hit TiVo, turned off TV and went back to Roamio. I now had msnbc, A&E, TWC and CNBC. Nothing reserved. I was not doing, nor do I plan to test, the effect of recording. I usually just let it time out, but I was curious too.

I believe the tuner selection process is quite good. It's approaching magic.
Joe, I'm trying to understand what you mean by what I highlighted above. How can you tell that "nothing is reserved". I don't think you could know until you got into a situation where you're short tuners, right?

Trying to drill in this a little more, here's what I did.

Turned Mini to channel 620 (discovery). Went to Roamio, and tuned to 620 (discovery).

Now, got to DVR Diagnostics on the Roamio, and look at tuners 0 through 5. Tuner 0 is set to 620. Tuner 1 is set to 620. Tuner 2 is on 507. Tuner 3 is on 503. Tuner 4 is on 504. Tuner 5 is on 510. So, even though Mini and Roamio are on same channel (620) and nothing (other than buffer) is being recorded, two different tuners (tuner 0 and tuner 1) are being used to watch 620. So that seems to indicate that no matter what, on live TV, the mini consumes a tuner.

But....

Now, I'll go back to the Mini and tune to channel 504. In theory, nothing should change since the Roamio is already tuned on one channel to 504, right? Well, not tuner 0 is 620. Tuner 1 is 620. Hmmm.... 2 is 507, 3 is 503, 4 is 504, and 5 is 510. So in that case, the mini is using the content coming from the tuner already on that channel.

But, then I read your post again. You mentioned that you "hit Tivo" just before turning off the TV in both instances on the Roamio. Hitting Tivo releases the tuner no matter what channel it's on I thought.... Or does it?

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Old 01-05-2015, 06:11 PM   #24
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OK, a little more. It seems as though for live TV, "sometimes" if the Roamio is on a channel and then the Mini is tuned to that channel, the Mini will not consume another tuner.

However.....

With respect to recording.....

I used the exact channels as listed in my last post. 502, 503, 504, 507, 511, and 620. That's what the Roamio was already tuned to, and the Mini was tuned to 504.

Then on the Roamio I used the bounced from tuner to tuner, and hit "record" for each channel - never changing a channel. When I did that for the last channel (620), I got an alert on the Mini telling me that either I had to stop using Live TV, or give up the recording. When I did nothing, it killed live TV on the mini and started the final recording.

So, if we're talking about recordings, we must assume that no matter what the channel, Live TV on a mini consumes a tuner even if the mini is trying to tune to (or is already on) a channel that is being recorded.

Whew!

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Old 01-05-2015, 06:14 PM   #25
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Joe, I'm trying to understand what you mean by what I highlighted above. How can you tell that "nothing is reserved". I don't think you could know until you got into a situation where you're short tuners, right?

But, then I read your post again. You mentioned that you "hit Tivo" just before turning off the TV in both instances on the Roamio. Hitting Tivo releases the tuner no matter what channel it's on I thought.... Or does it?
As for reserved, I'm referring to the display of active tuners. When my Mini is using one the Roamio says "reserved for MiniKitchen" and the channel number, and it's darkly shaded and can not be selected.

I believe going to TiVo Central (hitting TiVo) releases the tuner by the Mini. If not you have to wait for the time-out.

Errr, you do know that when watching live TV, you hit right then down and all your tuners display, right? You can then move to one, hit select and you go to that tuner. What you can't do from the remote is set all your tuners to the same channel. To do that you need to power cycle or do a staggered recording of the same channel to tie up all the tuners on one channel. You can select four (on basic Roamio) different channels with a little effort.

Yes, you can run the DVR diags to see the tuners, but my method is way quicker. I learned it somewhere on the Roamio forum I think. Or from AVS. I forget. Getting old. And I'm not going to do any recording.

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Old 01-05-2015, 06:26 PM   #26
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As for reserved, I'm referring to the display of active tuners. When my Mini is using one the Roamio says "reserved for MiniKitchen" and the channel number, and it's darkly shaded and can not be selected.

I believe going to TiVo Central (hitting TiVo) releases the tuner by the Mini. If not you have to wait for the time-out.

Errr, you do know that when watching live TV, you hit right then down and all your tuners display, right? You can then move to one, hit select and you go to that tuner. What you can't do from the remote is set all your tuners to the same channel. To do that you need to power cycle or do a staggered recording of the same channel to tie up all the tuners on one channel. You can select four (on basic Roamio) different channels with a little effort.

Yes, you can run the DVR diags to see the tuners, but my method is way quicker. I learned it somewhere on the Roamio forum I think. Or from AVS. I forget. Getting old. And I'm not going to do any recording.
Hmmm... So the short answer to start with is no, I never noticed anything saying "reserved for "mini whatever" when hitting right and down. To be honest, given how many minis and tuners I've got (two Roamio Pros each with a mini) it was never an issue before. So I just never noticed. Thanks! That is helpful.

That being said, it looks like once you introduce recording, that "sharing" evaporates and the mini is forced to use a dedicated tuner regardless of channel in order to watch live TV. What you could do (and I think it's been covered here before in another thread) is go to "My shows" and watch the recording in progress. However, it's kind of strange that it would make you do that when so long as recordings are not in process it allows the tuner to just be "shared" apparently.

I still like using the DVR diagnostics to review tuner assignments simply because you can see not only what "channels" are being tuned, but what tuners are tuned to what channels. Good stuff, though.

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Old 01-05-2015, 06:27 PM   #27
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OK, a little more. It seems as though for live TV, "sometimes" if the Roamio is on a channel and then the Mini is tuned to that channel, the Mini will not consume another tuner.
Not true. The Mini and the TiVo can never display the same tuner simultaneously. The tuner grabbed by the Mini is removed from the pool the TiVo has access to so if you cycle through the tuners on the TiVo it will not display any that are actively assigned to Minis.

It could be that you simply have two tuners set to the same channel so it appeared that they were using the same tuner.

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Old 01-05-2015, 06:38 PM   #28
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Not true. The Mini and the TiVo can never display the same tuner simultaneously. The tuner grabbed by the Mini is removed from the pool the TiVo has access to so if you cycle through the tuners on the TiVo it will not display any that are actively assigned to Minis.

It could be that you simply have two tuners set to the same channel so it appeared that they were using the same tuner.
You are correct and I slightly mis-spoke earlier. The tuner used by the Mini is not shared. In fact, the sound will be delayed too. The channel used by the Mini is not displayed on the Roamio, only the "Currently in use by xxxxx". But it is grayed out.

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Old 01-05-2015, 06:50 PM   #29
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Nope, Dan.

That is definitely not what at least "seemed to have" happened. I even went so far as to explicitly note the channel that each individual tuner was tuned to.

That being said, what I did not do is try to then view that channel back on the Roamio. So, I'll give it a try!

Roamio was tuned to 502,503,504,507,510.
Mini was on 618.

So, went to Mini and tuned to 507.

Hmm... then I go back to Roamio.

Dan is right. 507 is no longer "available" to Roamio. Instead, Roamio tuners are tuned to 502,503,504,510,618.

So, I'm not entirely sure what Joe is seeing at this point. The only thing I can assume is that Joe is hitting the Tivo button releasing the tuner, before looking to see if a tuner is being used by the mini?

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Old 01-06-2015, 03:46 PM   #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wmhjr View Post
Roamio was tuned to 502,503,504,507,510.
Mini was on 618.

So, went to Mini and tuned to 507.

Hmm... then I go back to Roamio.

Dan is right. 507 is no longer "available" to Roamio. Instead, Roamio tuners are tuned to 502,503,504,510,618.

So, I'm not entirely sure what Joe is seeing at this point. The only thing I can assume is that Joe is hitting the Tivo button releasing the tuner, before looking to see if a tuner is being used by the mini?
I ran these same tests early on when dynamic tuner allocation came out and found the same thing. The tuner just disappears from the Roamio when the Mini grabs it. I've never seen the message Joe mentioned either.

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