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Old 12-05-2013, 03:19 AM   #301
nooneuknow
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It seems that this experience has added a whole new boatload of people to either join, or express they are part of, the "Whatever it takes to keep TiVo in business, it's OK with me" crowd.

That only pushes me further away from being a TiVo owner/user, who has convinced friends and family to use TiVo, and has put in a lot of effort to keep them with TiVo.

I'm already pushed beyond the point of continuing on to always be the first level of tech support for those I've convinced should buy the product and pay for the service. Let them all get cable-provided DVRs. Then I'm off the hook, and I don't get blamed for it if somebody misses an episode, or the last 10 minutes, of their favorite soap opera. I'm done with that! It's not worth it. Maybe that will help make me be a more pleasant person, once I'm off the hook.

Shame on TiVo for focusing on litigation in the youth of, and missing what should have been the prime of, the Premiere, by years!

Shame on TiVo for stealthily slinging these cloud-hybrid Roamios, without giving us the info we needed to make an informed buying decision!

Shame on TiVo for sticking steadfastly to their policy of denying that TiVo service outages are ever their issue, instead making us reboot everything three times, and reconfigure our whole network, then blaming anything non-TiVo they can, until there's no way around denying it any more.

The truth is out there. The cat is out of the bag. How much more do those who have gone to the Roamio side, still not know, because it still hasn't been exposed, isn't out of the bag, and isn't out there?

I'm exhausted. Not from anything other than the conflict I feel over bailing out of giving business to the very company the holds all the important patents.

Maybe (I'm only saying maybe), we should let TiVo die. Their patents will be bought by other companies, and licensed to others, who will then become better companies. That sounds like the birth of true competition in the DVR market, finally. Maybe I'm just too exhausted, and too conflicted, to see anything but the better future I was hoping the Roamio would bring for TiVo and for me, as being anything more than an elaborate, deliberate, illusion.
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Old 12-05-2013, 07:42 AM   #302
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nooneuknow View Post

I recall a mention of either a Premiere or Roamio owner saying the direct ways in didn't work for them, but they got in using "watch now from Netflix" from a program's information. I'm leaning towards that had to have been a Premiere, or it might have been an not-rebooted Roamio, that still had that info in memory.

It was a Roamio



Quote:
Originally Posted by moyekj View Post
FYI while the Netflix access from My Shows is not accessible it does still work from "Find TV, Movies, & Videos". Watching Netflix right now without issues on my Roamio Pro with C133 errors still present.

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Old 12-05-2013, 08:06 AM   #303
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It's the databases that got moved to the cloud, and no longer on the drive. It seems many assumed the databases were now in solid-state memory, along with the operating system, which now resides there.
The Roamio still has local databases that it uses for internally scheduling season passes and the like. Only certain user facing interaction like searching for programs and browsing collections was moved to the cloud, but it's been like that since the Premiere was released. It used to be a lot worse. When the Premiere first came out, if it lost a connection to the Internet or TiVo service, it wasn't possible to playback local recordings as the My Show screen wouldn't work correctly.

In this case though, the TiVo service was in an odd state so the box was getting weird results back. That's why things that should work were not working. You can test this by pulling the network cable on the Roamio and seeing that it does work okay with the exception of items that get disabled like what to watch and searching and the like.

On a side note, every TiVo ever made, going back to the original model, won't work correctly if it can't download guide data, which it does every day. So complaining that the TiVo is network dependent is silly.
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Old 12-05-2013, 08:10 AM   #304
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I too have been C133 issues for the last week or so intermittently and tried to reboot everything. I IM'd Tivo yesterday, the support person looked up my device and said cryptically that the 'system was updated yesterday', and that it is fine today. And told me to force connection to the service per below, and now don't have that problem (at least for the night).

1) To manually initiate a connection to the TiVo service, go to TiVo Central
and select Messages & Settings > Settings > Network & Phone > Connect to the
TiVo service now. After any successful connection (whether manual or
automatic), the TiVo box will automatically attempt another connection within
the next 48 hours.
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Old 12-05-2013, 11:21 AM   #305
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Originally Posted by morac View Post
The Roamio still has local databases that it uses for internally scheduling season passes and the like. Only certain user facing interaction like searching for programs and browsing collections was moved to the cloud, but it's been like that since the Premiere was released. It used to be a lot worse. When the Premiere first came out, if it lost a connection to the Internet or TiVo service, it wasn't possible to playback local recordings as the My Show screen wouldn't work correctly.

In this case though, the TiVo service was in an odd state so the box was getting weird results back. That's why things that should work were not working. You can test this by pulling the network cable on the Roamio and seeing that it does work okay with the exception of items that get disabled like what to watch and searching and the like.
Well, "odd states" can happen, and the TiVo should be programmed to handle them. But I do believe the cloud aspect of this has been overblown. To me a "cloud DVR" would be one which stores everything, including video data, on a remote server, a concept which is totally insane IMNSHO, no matter how cheap bandwidth becomes. And I doubt that TiVo is foolish enough to move essential data like the guide or the season passes to their servers. I suspect this mess was a consequence of sloppy programming that intermingled server dependencies with references to local databases, and I hope TiVo will fix their software to handle future network outages more gracefully.

Quote:
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On a side note, every TiVo ever made, going back to the original model, won't work correctly if it can't download guide data, which it does every day. So complaining that the TiVo is network dependent is silly.
That's a separate issue. Of course every DVR needs guide data, but even a TiVo that's been cut off from the Internet should still perform all its basic functions for nearly two weeks. All a user whose network is down should notice is that eye candy is missing and network-dependent searches, etc, are unavailable.
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Old 12-05-2013, 11:51 AM   #306
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Shame on TiVo for stealthily slinging these cloud-hybrid Roamios, without giving us the info we needed to make an informed buying decision!
Come on, you know you're exaggerating. It's not a cloud DVR or a hybrid cloud DVR. All of the primary DVR functions still worked during the server downtime. It seems that Dan203 had some issues with cancelling recordings in the future but most if not all others were able to access the to do list and make changes.

I get it that the server being down was annoying. It slowed my box down and I did get an error once trying to get to the to do list (though every other time I got there fine). But I was able to watch recordings, set recordings, and record previously scheduled recordings. Those are the 3 primary most important functions of a DVR and you could add in watch live TV if you care about that. All of them were doable.

Listen, the Roamio isn't a perfect product and there are some annoying lingering bugs like the second manual recording popping up sometimes when you adjust the padding of a previously scheduled recording and the app overstating the space used by 33%. But overall the product does what they said it would and it does it fairly well.
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Old 12-05-2013, 12:29 PM   #307
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Cancelling from the ToDo List did not work, I also tried it and was shocked to see that I couldn't. That and other stuff mentioned here are basic DVR functions and no way should they be tied to whether your internet connection or the Tivo service is up. Period, full stop. ANY DVR function around recordings, searching and scheduling from your local guide (including SPs), etc. should NOT be tied to internet or service availability, and if Tivo is that fully tied to the mothership then they have idiot programmers and/or managers.
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Old 12-05-2013, 03:08 PM   #308
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Guys, and gals:

Points taken on several matters. I do read and digest all viewpoints and opinions.

Unless we see a 2nd outage, like what happened, I feel I have said all I need to say (for now). So, no need to address my every post, as I'm done ranting, and so long as the TiVo service stays up, it should stay that way.

I just want everybody to understand that I actually DO read all posts, and not just jump in and start posting, until I have done so (when entering into a thread I haven't been active in yet).

While there are many posts I'd like to comment on, others have said what I'd say anyway.

While there are a few posts I'd like to reply to, because I disagree with them, I'm still going to try and keep the peace.
.
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Old 12-05-2013, 03:16 PM   #309
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Cancelling from the ToDo List did not work, I also tried it and was shocked to see that I couldn't. That and other stuff mentioned here are basic DVR functions and no way should they be tied to whether your internet connection or the Tivo service is up. Period, full stop. ANY DVR function around recordings, searching and scheduling from your local guide (including SPs), etc. should NOT be tied to internet or service availability, and if Tivo is that fully tied to the mothership then they have idiot programmers and/or managers.
I agree. I never realized how dependent on the mother ship they were until now. It's a bit disconcerting. I understand search not working, although I'd prefer if it dropped down to a basic mode that only used local data, but all other basic DVR functions should work. Also I don't understand why the apps went down too. I know the old HME apps were server based, but the new ones are local and as long as the service itself is not down I don't know why a connection to TiVos servers is required. It like they assume that if they can't talk to TiVo's servers then the whole internet must be down. That's bad design.
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Old 12-05-2013, 03:30 PM   #310
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Just one addition to what I just posted:

While some are saying the Premieres are cloud-hybrid as well, and some disagree with me calling them that, I was able to run my Premieres in SDUI, and they behaved just like a TiVo HD, had more functionality in the SDUI, and everything was still running just as fast, even though the TiVo service was down.

The Roamio has no way to invoke any SDUI, which leaves you stuck in a UI that is continuously trying to access TiVo's cloud, which slows it down, as it tries to, but can't.

The Premiere gives you the ability to greatly reduce those realtime communication attempts, by means of the SDUI.

If the Roamio had that same fallback option, I'd have been less upset about what happens with the Roamio, in an outage, or when anything else inhibits the constant chatter between the Roamio and the cloud (or whatever you choose to call it).

I've been very careful to try to make sure I never say the Roamio is a "cloud DVR", as it is not. But I stand by my comments calling it a "cloud-hybrid", and have been telling those who just call it a "cloud DVR", that if they are going to say "cloud", without the "hybrid", it's not accurate. I do understand that some will not even accept the "cloud-hybrid" term, and they are entitled to their opinions and beliefs.
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Old 12-05-2013, 03:32 PM   #311
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The TiVo servers control the list of Apps that are made visible to a TSN. When you do a net connect that can change. My guess is that those that lost Apps (mine were still visible and I was using Netflix during outage) must have net connected during the outage and got a bad or empty list back. So while you don't need TiVo servers to actually run the some of the Apps, the TiVo servers still control the "links" you see.
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Old 12-05-2013, 03:33 PM   #312
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I agree. I never realized how dependent on the mother ship they were until now. It's a bit disconcerting. I understand search not working, although I'd prefer if it dropped down to a basic mode that only used local data, but all other basic DVR functions should work. Also I don't understand why the apps went down too. I know the old HME apps were server based, but the new ones are local and as long as the service itself is not down I don't know why a connection to TiVos servers is required. It like they assume that if they can't talk to TiVo's servers then the whole internet must be down. That's bad design.
Yep, that's what it looks like - bad design with no fallback mode, which I suspect is either due to them wanting to monetize everything we do on the boxes or that they have incompetent programmers (or managers) that don't understand or care about how to do this.

Again, the real issue here isn't the Tivo service uptime which has historically been excellent, it's the more common cases where the user's net connection could be down for an extended period for whatever reason. And for this reason alone, no Tivo should be reliant on talking to a server to do ANY local DVR function for as long as there is guide data available.

Period.
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Old 12-05-2013, 03:36 PM   #313
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I agree. I never realized how dependent on the mother ship they were until now. It's a bit disconcerting. I understand search not working, although I'd prefer if it dropped down to a basic mode that only used local data, but all other basic DVR functions should work. Also I don't understand why the apps went down too. I know the old HME apps were server based, but the new ones are local and as long as the service itself is not down I don't know why a connection to TiVos servers is required. It like they assume that if they can't talk to TiVo's servers then the whole internet must be down. That's bad design.
The OTT apps have always been like that, going back to before the S3 platform (as others have brought up, as well).

It's just that this sustained outage we all had to endure, made it hard to not notice the fact that OTT apps require the TiVo Service to be working, for them to work (unless you didn't try using them for the duration of the service outage).

Until now, you'd have to try using the affected apps and features, during a momentary loss of communication to TiVos servers (which I now consider to be more of a cloud).

Otherwise, I hear ya, Dan. I agree with your posts 100%.
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Old 12-05-2013, 03:44 PM   #314
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The OTT apps have always been like that, going back to before the S3 platform (as others have brought up, as well).
Back in the S3 days the apps were based on TiVo's HME scheme where the apps actually ran on the server and only the UI elements were run on the local box. This was TiVo's way of sandboxing and running OTT apps on underpowered hardware. With the Premiere they moved most of the OTT apps over local Flash based apps*, so they should be able to run without the need to talk to TiVos servers. But as moyekj TiVo's servers control which apps you're allowed to access, so this glitch seems to have screwed that aspect up causing people to lose access to apps.

* Some are now moving to HTML5, but they are still local and do not require a connection to TiVo's servers to function.
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Old 12-05-2013, 08:10 PM   #315
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In my case two of my boxes lost apps, but another did not. The apps worked on that box. The boxes that lost apps wouldn't get them back after the outage until I first went into the Find TV... menu and then forced a connecfion. The other way around did not work, so I guess the Find TV menu causes the app list to download, but the connection causes them to show up. My guess might be that forcing a call during the outage might have caused the apps to go MIA.
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Old 12-05-2013, 09:06 PM   #316
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I'm new to Roamio after using multiple Series1's and, for the last 5 years, a TiVo HD. Obviously I've never experienced a problem like the C133 thing on any of the older boxes. The worst I ever had to deal with was a dead telephone port and a few failing drives. All I want TiVo to do is:

1. put the network/server status at some well-known location

2. modify the s/w so that the box is a little more functional (less brain-dead) in this type of situation

The basic issue is that TiVo is supposed to be a high-end product... they can't inflict this type of thing on users and expect folks to be happy with it– continue buying the product and evangelize to others. Hopefully this is one poor case and unlikely to be repeated. But I'd like to hear from them that they understand it is unacceptable, and that there's a plan to address it.
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Old 12-05-2013, 09:23 PM   #317
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The amount of time and energy spent here agonizing over a simple, unfortunate server outage is either impressive or distressing.....not yet sure which.
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Old 12-05-2013, 10:39 PM   #318
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Come on, you know you're exaggerating. It's not a cloud DVR or a hybrid cloud DVR. All of the primary DVR functions still worked during the server downtime. It seems that Dan203 had some issues with cancelling recordings in the future but most if not all others were able to access the to do list and make changes.
I actually was not able to cancel a recording that was in progress. It kept bringing up an error stating that an internet connection was required. Why on earth would that require one? Oh, as of an hour ago I was getting a C133 error again. Lasted about 30 minutes. I guess that's progress.
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Old 12-06-2013, 12:38 AM   #319
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The amount of time and energy spent here agonizing over a simple, unfortunate server outage is either impressive or distressing.....not yet sure which.
I think it is the shock of what does not work on the Roamio when the network goes down, in the old days the network could go down for days and all would be well as the guide data goes out about 10 full days. With the Roamio the TiVo servers have much more control of your TiVo than we knew about.
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Old 12-06-2013, 02:44 AM   #320
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Shame on TiVo ..

Shame on TiVo ...

Shame on TiVo ...

I'm exhausted. Not from anything other than the conflict I feel over bailing out of giving business to the very company the holds all the important patents.
You are exhausted because you work yourself up into a frenzy over nothing. You all feed off of each other with one post less factual than the next with the hidden agenda to get even with TiVo for the Premiere boxes. It's like watching Fox News.

And you are not bailing out TiVo by buying their box. It's not exactly a cash cow selling DVRs unless you count the $1 billion won in litigation.

As for competition TiVo is not the problem it's the monopoly that is the cable industry. I mean can you seriously think there can be competition when the industry gives us the CableCard? Where you are at the complete mercy of the cable companies to pair the CableCard they help invent?

Just search the NYTimes for David Pogue's problems with TiVo and CableCards over the years. Hint: the problem isn't TiVo.
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Old 12-06-2013, 02:57 AM   #321
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The amount of time and energy spent here agonizing over a simple, unfortunate server outage is either impressive or distressing.....not yet sure which.
It's distressing, not the outage, but particularly the tomes which are technical navel gazing. Except for the few people who were setting up a new Roamio or decided to go through set up again, you could watch live tv, you could watch recordings, etc. IOW, zero impact.
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Old 12-06-2013, 06:17 AM   #322
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I think it is the shock of what does not work on the Roamio when the network goes down, in the old days the network could go down for days and all would be well as the guide data goes out about 10 full days. With the Roamio the TiVo servers have much more control of your TiVo than we knew about.
Exactly, it's really not so much about this Tivo service outage (or the much more common case of a person losing their net access), just that a lot of these issues could have been avoided with proper design. Hopefully Tivo will learn a lesson from this and implement some fallbacks.
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Old 12-06-2013, 09:32 AM   #323
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Exactly, it's really not so much about this Tivo service outage (or the much more common case of a person losing their net access), just that a lot of these issues could have been avoided with proper design. Hopefully Tivo will learn a lesson from this and implement some fallbacks.
+1
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Old 12-06-2013, 10:07 AM   #324
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I think it is the shock of what does not work on the Roamio when the network goes down, in the old days the network could go down for days and all would be well as the guide data goes out about 10 full days. With the Roamio the TiVo servers have much more control of your TiVo than we knew about.
+1
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Old 12-06-2013, 11:04 AM   #325
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Except for the few people who were setting up a new Roamio or decided to go through set up again, you could watch live tv, you could watch recordings, etc. IOW, zero impact.
Actually there was a significant impact on people who wanted to search for or schedule new recordings.
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Old 12-06-2013, 12:33 PM   #326
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had this on both tivos a couple times the past week.
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Old 12-06-2013, 12:50 PM   #327
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Dear forum members, thread subscribers, and so on: If you don't want to waste time on an off-topic post, I suggest you skip reading this post.

Quote:
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You are exhausted because you work yourself up into a frenzy over nothing. You all feed off of each other with one post less factual than the next with the hidden agenda to get even with TiVo for the Premiere boxes. It's like watching Fox News.

And you are not bailing out TiVo by buying their box. It's not exactly a cash cow selling DVRs unless you count the $1 billion won in litigation.

As for competition TiVo is not the problem it's the monopoly that is the cable industry. I mean can you seriously think there can be competition when the industry gives us the CableCard? Where you are at the complete mercy of the cable companies to pair the CableCard they help invent?

Just search the NYTimes for David Pogue's problems with TiVo and CableCards over the years. Hint: the problem isn't TiVo.
Wow "You all...". Great way to make friends (nope, the opposite). You attack everybody in the whole thread and get zero responses (until now). I guess you made everybody's ignore list (except mine), and they don't see your enlightening posts.

"Hidden agendas" Pot meet kettle then (if I truly had, or have, a hidden agenda).

"CableCards" had nothing to do with the outage, whatsoever. But does show your own agenda. I don't like them either, but it is beyond anything I can do about it.

I'm not going to follow-up with your suggestion. CableCards are a PITA, but we do need them. Until CableLabs & the FCC change the game, we get what we get. Reading about somebody having major, and ongoing, issues with cablecards, has no value to me. They are what they are, and they certainly are not perfect.

"The problem isn't TiVo" - I'd bet every TiVo I own, against that, if there was no agenda. However, there clearly is.

The ONLY post of mine regarding cardcards, was an attempt to help somebody to understand that cablecards had/have nothing to do with this thread, especially the TiVo service outage, and they should give it some time to re-download the tables/mappings, before hounding their MSO. I tried to help somebody get their premium channels, in the best, and tested, way of letting the card have the time to download the table mappings.

Fox news: I choose to not watch Fox news. I have a very good hunch that rather than not watch Fox news, you make sure you do, so you can voice your own agendas, opinions, and tell them they are idiots.

I simply make sure that I never watch Fox news. You could do the same thing by clicking on my name, to the left and selecting ignore user, since half of your posts are stalk & snipe ones, directed at me (and I'm not alone in being on the receiving end of your brash commentary and critiques).

Back to cablecards, I know exactly how they ended up being what they are. One thing they are not, is a part of anything this thread is about.

I know TiVo takes a loss on the hardware sales, and makes up for it in the service subscriptions. That's no secret, and never has been. I know TiVo service is their only hope to recoup anything they may lose, and it's offset by their new MSO partnerships. Since the service is where the money is at (leaving out ad revenues, and the MSO partners), they'd have to be suicidal, as a company, to not find some means to re-assure the masses, that service blackouts can't, or won't happen again, or they can at least make things better, by figuring out a way to make the Roamios function better, if they don't learn how to keep the service working (or just as a contingency).

I have absolutely no hidden agenda about things. I make my agendas clear.

I actually appreciate my Premieres now, way more than I ever did. Why you think what I post is some agenda about Premieres, is just ridiculous. I'm still contemplating what I will do, when it comes to the Roamios I purchased, and the ones not activated.

If you don't like Fox News, don't watch it, listen to it, or read it. That's what the majority of those who don't like Fox New do. Yet, you are also not alone, in being somebody who watches it anyway (if that is the case), and reacting/responding to it.

Would it kill you to not watch Fox News? Nope. You can also un-tick a channel you don't like (me being the channel), and this stalk & snipe thing could be done and over with.

I don't like the ignore function on here. I like the facebook one, where if one party ignores (blocks) another party, that party can't see what the party who initiated the ignore/block posts, either. If we had that level of ignore/block on here, I truly believe this whole forum would be a better place.

I've drifted between on-topic and off-topic, in this post. I don't intend on carrying on doing this sort of "intervention', like I'm doing, due to the fact that even a PM to you, to try and end the ongoing crap, that nobody else wants to see, just gave you an opportunity to make accusations, belittle me, and essentially call me things, which I am not.

Before you even created an account here, I was in a mess, having ticked-off many with posts that make anything posted since your joining, tame, by comparison.

I realized the mess I had made, and the collateral damage. I PM'd the people I was bickering with, and settled the problems with each. My attempt with you, wasn't very finely crafted, but did not deserve the response you gave me. I was trying to extend an olive branch, but you whipped out the flamethrower.

That's what really stands out about you, to me. Nobody has ever been so ridiculously hostile.

It's easy to find old posts of me locked in a dispute/argument, or at odds with somebody. I turned it around, and now I get along just fine with the others.

I don't have a standard boiler-plate Pm for such occasions. I try my best to make each "Let's try to get along" type-PM, fit each situation. I still can't tell if my attempt with you was an Epic fail on my part, or you just have no desire to get along.

The ball is in your court. If we can't get past this, I feel we should block each other, and then things will get better. It's not what I truly want, but this can not keep going on forever. Either quit watching Fox News, or quit getting worked up about them. There's plenty of other news providers you can use, who don't have a bias. If you still insist on watching Fox News, you will always be at odds with them. The same applies here, if we can't get along.

This is my last effort, before I start reporting every post you make, that has little to no value, and just berates/belittles somebody else, or myself.

If you are balking at this, please, I beg of you, add me to your ignore list, so things can go as, as they used to, before you came along, as well as some other newcomers here, who have also become a major PITA.

I'm not belittling newcomers, just the ones that come in and lay down the law, in a place they have no jurisdiction.

Lastly, if you are going to do a hatchet job on a post of mine, in a quote, I ask that you please place a <snip> in every space that exists due to you only quoting parts of my post. Check my replies to others, when I don't quote the full post. I do exactly as I ask you to please do, or anybody else to do.

PM a response, if you must. I like peace talks being kept in PMs to keep threads on-topic. It just didn't work the last time I tried, with you. So, if you must do it publicly, please get it all out, post it, and let's move on. Shall we?
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Old 12-06-2013, 02:32 PM   #328
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Actually there was a significant impact on people who wanted to search for or schedule new recordings.
Significant? Perhaps for people with no life.
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Old 12-06-2013, 04:11 PM   #329
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*plonk*
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Old 12-06-2013, 04:52 PM   #330
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