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Old 11-17-2013, 11:08 PM   #91
Shakhari
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I don't totally buy him as RJ. It's been obvious since the end of the third season that he was at least a minion, but he doesn't match the physical description we've been given in the past. Plus, RJ has been shown to have some sort of ties to Visualize.
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Old 11-18-2013, 05:24 AM   #92
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I would have said that Red John is the sheriff, except that Cho said they had positive ID on the three bomb victims.

The bomb killed Stiles and Reed Diamond (?), who were left sitting on the couch after Jane had the sheriff move from the couch to join Bertram and the FBI agent, all three of whom had the tattoo.

The bomb did not kill Bertram, Jane, or the FBI agent, which means Stiles and Reed Diamond were closer to the bomb, which means the bomb was in or around the couch. The sheriff could have left the bomb in the couch when he moved to join the other tattooed suspects.

I wonder if the sheriff will turn up later, having falsified his own dental and /or DNA records so that the third body was mis-identified.

Of course, that would raise the question of how the sheriff planted the third body, which probably means I've over-thought it...LOL...
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Old 11-18-2013, 05:43 AM   #93
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Sigh, when is this mess finally over?
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Old 11-18-2013, 06:44 AM   #94
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If you're going to start a secret criminal organization, the last thing you want to do is mark yourself with an identifiable tattoo. How completely ridiculous is that?
This is the part that disappointed me the most. It makes so little sense, other than to advance the plot.

I was really hoping, after all these years, that the final Red John/Patrick Jane showdown would be more than just a part of some giant conspiracy.
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Old 11-18-2013, 07:07 AM   #95
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This show is really turning into "How I Met Red John".

I am ready for them to clean this storyline up and get back to the show.

Tiger Tiger. Sigh.
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Old 11-18-2013, 08:04 AM   #96
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This show is really turning into "How I Met Red John".

I am ready for them to clean this storyline up and get back to the show.

Tiger Tiger. Sigh.

??Get back to the show?? The show has been about "Find Red John" since day one. I just watched the first episode last week ... I don't think I had ever seen it before.

The two things that drive me nuts are: (1) How does someone as dysfunctional as Patrick Jane get a job in law enforcement?? To my way of thinking, he's got way too many 'issues' to be any good at what he's trying to do. He spends way too much time laying down on the sofa. And (2) How can the whole police department spend so much time and manpower working on ONE CASE ... for what, almost ten years??
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Old 11-18-2013, 08:10 AM   #97
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I'm also not convinced they're chasing the real Red John, nor do I think Jane does either. The bodies blown to bits is a too-common plot device for someone to disappear. There was also a bit of a leap when Jane asked Lisbon about the new public relations person before making the announcement. We never saw them conclude he was RJ. So, I'm thinking the whole chase for Bertram is just misdirection.

I liked that when the FBI took over the CBI office all the other agents were jumping up and moving while Cho and Rigsby just sat there staring at him. If I was Lisbon, I would have insisted the FBI agent from Austin show me his shoulder. The description of The Association included judges not just cops, so there's a possibility that the judge who issued the writ was sporting a tattoo as well.
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Old 11-18-2013, 08:21 AM   #98
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??Get back to the show?? The show has been about "Find Red John" since day one. I just watched the first episode last week ... I don't think I had ever seen it before.
Yes. While Red John has been part of the show since the beginning, the early episodes dealt more with Patrick solving other cases, and Red John was in the background. Now it is almost all Red John.
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Old 11-18-2013, 10:04 AM   #99
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Yes. While Red John has been part of the show since the beginning, the early episodes dealt more with Patrick solving other cases, and Red John was in the background. Now it is almost all Red John.
I don't have a problem with Red John becoming the temporary main focus of every recent episode, as the producers have said this is the end of the RJ story. So they need to make it (and it deserves to be) The Main Event. I always thought that PJ and RJ thought of themselves as the Smartest Guys in the Room. And this would be a Mentalist showdown. But it's turned into The Manchurian Candidate.
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Old 11-18-2013, 10:33 AM   #100
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I don't have a problem with Red John becoming the temporary main focus of every recent episode, as the producers have said this is the end of the RJ story. So they need to make it (and it deserves to be) The Main Event. I always thought that PJ and RJ thought of themselves as the Smartest Guys in the Room. And this would be a Mentalist showdown. But it's turned into The Manchurian Candidate.
Yeah, the problem with the focus on Red John as they pass through the endgame is that it focuses us on just how lame the Red John storyline has turned out to be.

That's one problem with making stuff up as you go along...sometimes you end up writing checks that you can't cash.
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Old 11-18-2013, 12:26 PM   #101
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After last night, I'm thinking the Brett Partridge isn't really dead and is Red John is a lot more plausible. Why else have Cho go and take a picture of his shoulder without looking to see if it was indeed him? It seemed pointless to show unless something else was going to happen with it later.
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Old 11-18-2013, 12:45 PM   #102
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After last night, I'm thinking the Brett Partridge isn't really dead and is Red John is a lot more plausible. Why else have Cho go and take a picture of his shoulder without looking to see if it was indeed him? It seemed pointless to show unless something else was going to happen with it later.
Until last night, I was assuming Stiles was RJ, and he didn't have the tattoo because tattoos are for minions. But last night they made it sound like RJ is just another member of the club, not its Grand Poo-bah. Which gives me the horrible fear that after they take down Red John, they will turn their attention to the Blake Association, and this will never actually end.
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Old 11-18-2013, 12:55 PM   #103
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I had a suspicion that Bertram was involved for a long time. I even put him as #2 on my suspect list, but if he was RJ, I thought he had Visualize help somehow.
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Old 11-18-2013, 02:33 PM   #104
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I'm not buying Bertram as Red John either.
He doesn't seem to have the charisma to have fanatically devoted minions.

I'm still in the "Partridge faked his death" camp.

On the other hand, there's still no reason that it can't be Van Pelt.
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Old 11-18-2013, 03:48 PM   #105
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On the other hand, there's still no reason that it can't be Van Pelt.
Spoiler:
Bruno Heller said "we can trust that list". It isn't Jane, it isn't Van Pelt.

http://insidetv.ew.com/2013/05/06/me...red-john-list/


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Old 11-18-2013, 07:11 PM   #106
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I'm not buying Bertram as Red John either.
He doesn't seem to have the charisma to have fanatically devoted minions.
The group was revealed not as "RJ and his minions" but "A group of people who can't say no to orders being exploited by RJ". As described, they don't always know where the orders came from, but as they are all bound by their own secrets that might come out, they have to follow the orders at the risk of their own safety.(The risk not just their secrets coming out but someone else killing them for not following orders).

So, as we have it now, RJ isn't necessarily the leader, but could just just be someone who's part of the group and is using it to further his serial killer hobby.

Red John wouldn't have to be a charismatic leader, just someone who knows how to push the buttons. That said, I think Bertram and the hunt for him is misdirection. But his killing of the bartender though doesn't make him look to be just "a cop who screwed up once and is now stuck inside the organization".
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Old 11-18-2013, 09:04 PM   #107
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Red John wouldn't have to be a charismatic leader, just someone who knows how to push the buttons.
But RJ is charismatic, or at least capable of brainwashing people into adoring him. This has been shown again and again over the years. Quite a few of his minions are fanatically devoted to him.
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Old 11-18-2013, 09:22 PM   #108
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But RJ is charismatic, or at least capable of brainwashing people into adoring him. This has been shown again and again over the years. Quite a few of his minions are fanatically devoted to him.
Which is why it's a little puzzling that they now seem to be backing away a little, and hinting that RJ is just another member of the Blake Association and not the mastermind behind it.
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Old 11-18-2013, 10:00 PM   #109
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I'm becoming convinced that it is partridge. Why else would they be fussing with the body in the morgue, other than to take the first step in the "that's not rally partridges body" direction.

Bertram just doesn't seem like red John should seem to me. Not creepy enough. RJ should have been one step ahead of Jane during the aftermath of the explosion. Bertram was struggling to keep ahead. RJ shouldn't have had to struggle, in particular if he himself planted the bomb.

For those who watched the preview for next week, there was a voice that I assume to be red john's. who does it sound like to you?

Spoiler:
i didn't think it sounded like bertram. Sounded like a younger man to me.

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Old 11-18-2013, 10:13 PM   #110
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The group was revealed not as "RJ and his minions" but "A group of people who can't say no to orders being exploited by RJ". As described, they don't always know where the orders came from, but as they are all bound by their own secrets that might come out, they have to follow the orders at the risk of their own safety.(The risk not just their secrets coming out but someone else killing them for not following orders).

So, as we have it now, RJ isn't necessarily the leader, but could just just be someone who's part of the group and is using it to further his serial killer hobby.

Red John wouldn't have to be a charismatic leader, just someone who knows how to push the buttons. That said, I think Bertram and the hunt for him is misdirection. But his killing of the bartender though doesn't make him look to be just "a cop who screwed up once and is now stuck inside the organization".

I'm not talking about the Blakees when I refer to "minions" but people like Loralei, Timothy Carter (Bradley Whitford), Craig, Rebecca, etc.

Bertram is undoubtedly dirty and a murderer but I don't think he's Red John.
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Old 11-19-2013, 02:20 AM   #111
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I still think it's Partridge. We saw *A* body, but not his face. And one other thing that they slipped by...
Spoiler:
in the previews for next week, RJ is talking to Jane, and the voice is not remotely similar to Bertram, but is very similar to Partridge.


This sweeps period will be the end of the RJ matter. What they will be dealing with after this is the Blake organization.

Oh, and this episode had one other interesting thing. Every time anyone mentioned the "conspiracy" the closed captioning spelled it T-I-G-E-R, which is consistent with what has been in the CC in the past, BUT when Smith quoted the first line of the poem, it was spelled T-Y-G-E-R, so they are using "Tiger, Tiger" deliberately.
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Old 11-19-2013, 02:39 AM   #112
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But surely Jane saw Partridge's body and face when he went to the crime scene with him and Lisbon. Of course, Jane was initially concerned about Lisbon, but he still would not miss a chance to have a careful look at a RJ crime scene, including carefully examining Partridge's body.

If Partridge does turn out to be alive, there better be a very good explanation for how Jane got tricked. The problem is, the only good explanation I can think of would be a cliche -- identical twins. Distant second best explanation would also be a cliche -- Partridge took one of those handy-dandy drugs to appear dead and then put in a decoy body after he woke up.
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Old 11-19-2013, 07:19 AM   #113
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But RJ is charismatic, or at least capable of brainwashing people into adoring him. This has been shown again and again over the years. Quite a few of his minions are fanatically devoted to him.
This is why Stiles was the only person in "the list" that made any sense.

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Which is why it's a little puzzling that they now seem to be backing away a little, and hinting that RJ is just another member of the Blake Association and not the mastermind behind it.
The two are not mutually exclusive. RJ may be a criminal mastermind, but only be involved with the Blake people as a convenience to him. He does not have to be their leader. In fact, working from the shadows is more his style.

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Oh, and this episode had one other interesting thing. Every time anyone mentioned the "conspiracy" the closed captioning spelled it T-I-G-E-R, which is consistent with what has been in the CC in the past, BUT when Smith quoted the first line of the poem, it was spelled T-Y-G-E-R, so they are using "Tiger, Tiger" deliberately.
I did notice that. So it has been intentional all along.
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Old 11-19-2013, 08:42 AM   #114
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I still think it's Partridge. We saw *A* body, but not his face. And one other thing that they slipped by...
Spoiler:
in the previews for next week, RJ is talking to Jane, and the voice is not remotely similar to Bertram, but is very similar to Partridge.
Spoiler:
To me, that voice sounded like the POTUS' Chief of Staff from Scandal.

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Old 11-19-2013, 08:43 AM   #115
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I'll just be glad when the whole RJ thing is over.
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Old 11-19-2013, 08:45 AM   #116
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During his confession, the FBI guy who got shot... did he say that he arranged to create fake credentials so RJ could infiltrate the CBI building and kill that secretary lady who had shot up the place? Am I remembering that correctly?

If Bertram were RJ, he wouldn't need that, would he?
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Old 11-19-2013, 08:48 AM   #117
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The two are not mutually exclusive. RJ may be a criminal mastermind, but only be involved with the Blake people as a convenience to him. He does not have to be their leader. In fact, working from the shadows is more his style.
Not really...the strong implication all along has been that all these people are RJ's followers. Now, suddenly, he's peripheral to the larger conspiracy.

This doesn't read like the expanding awareness of an existing conspiracy. It reads like they changed their minds, and are largely ignoring all that they "exposed" about RJ in the past.
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Old 11-19-2013, 09:16 AM   #118
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I know they have to do some things for dramatic effect, but seriously, if you were the bartender and saw a news story on the TV behind said supposed "serial killer" why in the WORLD would you point the news story out to the actual guy sitting there? Just shut your mouth, excuse yourself and call the po-po then get the heck out of there.
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Old 11-19-2013, 09:32 AM   #119
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And how did they immediately know it was Bertram who killed the bartender?
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Old 11-19-2013, 10:29 AM   #120
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And how did they immediately know it was Bertram who killed the bartender?
I'd guess because his fingerprints were everywhere.
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