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Old 12-23-2015, 10:13 AM   #1
teknikel
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Making a Murderer S01E08 "The Great Burden"

Well, I wasn't surprised at the verdict and I felt weird for hoping otherwise. I am not really sure about Steven being innocent despite what the filmmakers would have me believe.

I do believe I didn't have all the facts. And I'm not sure the prosecution wanted to know anything more than they did.

That is my frustration with the legal system at times. You have prosecutors trying to get promoted through convictions rather than getting the truth. I understand it is difficult to quantify the latter but I the results of the former can lead to situations where people can be wrongly convicted.

So most of this was made over 8 years ago. The only new stuff I've seen is the overhead drone shots and maybe some other driving shots through windshields.

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Old 12-23-2015, 11:12 PM   #2
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I'm binging this whole thing today and just finished this episode. I think that as soon as the Manitowoc Sheriff's dept. involved themselves in the searches they lost any chance of convicting this guy. The conflict of interest is just too damning.
The way the filmmakers presented everything, one would have to put in a not guilty verdict unless they were in those extremes Dean & Jerry talked about. But I think there must be so much more that was introduced that we didn't see.
As much as I liked this show, I am beginning to see its major flaw: The one-sided-ness. I believe that is why I felt so manipulated through the first 5 episodes.

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Old 12-24-2015, 12:07 AM   #3
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The way the filmmakers presented everything, one would have to put in a not guilty verdict unless they were in those extremes Dean & Jerry talked about. But I think there must be so much more that was introduced that we didn't see.
As much as I liked this show, I am beginning to see its major flaw: The one-sided-ness. I believe that is why I felt so manipulated through the first 5 episodes.
I agree with the one-sidedness but feel that the holes in the prosecution's case, and there were a lot of them, stood up on their own and provided more than enough for reasonable doubt. For example, the many times prosecution witnesses made statements that were contradicted by their own testimony during depositions months earlier and in their own written statements and reports. Practically every single prosecution witness stepped down from the stand with a credibility issue hanging over their head.

Also, if there was any other evidence that favored the prosecution that was stronger than what they showed in the documentary I feel that they would've shown it or their credibility would be questioned. I'm sure there was a ton more circumstantial evidence that we didn't see but there wasn't a "smoking gun" that removed reasonable doubt.

I could list 15+ reasons that I would've said "not guilty". One of the most important to me were the two recorded phone calls he had with his fiance on the day of the supposed murder. One was supposed to have taken place while the murder was being committed and the other was later in the evening. In both cases, Steven is calm and the conversation is totally normal. This guy would have to be a Hannibal Lecter type of psychopath to pull that acting job off and he certainly isn't.

The only thing this guy is guilty of is suing Manitowoc County and making them look like idiots.

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Old 12-28-2015, 04:30 AM   #4
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I googled to find out who that super hot reporter was that they kept showing, and ended up reading some of her Twitter feed and she says lots of additional evidence was presented that didn't get shown in the film. Specifically, they say that Teresa's camera and Palm Pilot were found in the burn barrel.

https://mobile.twitter.com/Angenette...21067735027712

I don't really know what to think, other than that I feel like this whole case was handled very poorly and the filmmakers clearly have an agenda they're trying to show.

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Old 12-28-2015, 09:29 AM   #5
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Everything was circumstantial though.

Bones. No proof they were burned at sight. Could have easily been planted.
(This goes for her camera & palm pilot)
Her car could have easily been planted. Coop Colburn radio calls suggests they knew about it before it was found on the property.
Mystery key & Bullet found well after the fact, by suspect cops in a lawsuit, and could also have been easily planted.
The blood could have been planted in the Rav4. Source being the blood vial.

There was no evidence of blood at the crime scenes. No damage to bed if used to tie down. No blood in any house area.

I am not saying he is innocent. I just think the case was CLEARLY handled questionably at MANY levels. From the conflict of interest to a few complete MORONS on the stand.

1.) FBI willing to state that evidence he did not test does not have traces of EDTA. Blood samples he did NOT TEST. And when given chance to correct he statement he doubles down.

2.) The numerous cops that would make similar statements that their involvement was not a conflict of interest and was in the best interest of Avery.

3.) The media coverage that would clearly setup a bias to most potential jurors.

4.) The steamrolling of civil rights in many of the interviews done without lawyers present. (Brendan)

5.) One cop still stating he did not think Avery was innocent still on the rape charge 18 years prior.

6.) How certain evidence was found by the one county department only and days AFTER rooms had been searched numerous times.


Just shady business all around. That all being said I do find it hard to believe any alternative scenarios playing out. Mainly that the cops were involved in killing her. I suppose the cops could have come across her body and they just burned it and then framed him but that just seems so unlikely.

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Old 01-05-2016, 01:52 PM   #6
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Yeah but also remember that it could have been anyone, who knew her, not necessarily the police... Avery was a public figure at this point due to the previous trial, so the salvage yard would have been the perfect place to leave her body and car after she was murdered.

Then the police just had to make sure that all the other pieces fell into place.

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Old 01-05-2016, 08:28 PM   #7
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I was being led to believe it was the brother in law who said he was at the hospital and then going hunting.

Quote:
Originally Posted by DevdogAZ View Post
I googled to find out who that super hot reporter was that they kept showing
I thought you were talking about the super hot dude with the salt and pepper hair


Last edited by Cainebj; 01-05-2016 at 08:30 PM. Reason: typo
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Old 01-08-2016, 03:41 AM   #8
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I found myself getting angry at the prosecutor when he said the key didn't matter very much during closing arguments. What BS! If you believe the key was planted by the cops, that casts doubt on all of the other evidence that the cops had opportunity to manipulate, which would undermine the whole case.

I'm not convinced of Avery's innocence, but I think I would have voted not guilty had I been a juror. The Manitowoc cops tainted everything just by being involved.

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Old 01-09-2016, 07:27 AM   #9
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I am about 95% sure Steve is guilty, however that doesn't mean I believe in half of the evidence. To me, the biggest piece of evidence they didn't show are the numerous phone calls he made to Teresa that day. How he requested her specifically, how he *67 her multiple times, how he then called her again in the clear after she was already dead. Also her previous statements to her employer that she didn't want to go see him because he scared her.

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Old 01-09-2016, 11:44 AM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by teknikel View Post
The way the filmmakers presented everything, one would have to put in a not guilty verdict unless they were in those extremes Dean & Jerry talked about. But I think there must be so much more that was introduced that we didn't see.
As much as I liked this show, I am beginning to see its major flaw: The one-sided-ness. I believe that is why I felt so manipulated through the first 5 episodes.
This is pretty good article that lists some of the stuff left out of the documentary:

http://www.vox.com/2016/1/8/10734268...murderer-avery

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Old 01-09-2016, 11:45 AM   #11
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How he requested her specifically
I have read about the multiple phone calls and the *67, but where did you hear about this?

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Old 01-09-2016, 11:46 AM   #12
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I googled to find out who that super hot reporter was

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Old 01-09-2016, 11:44 PM   #13
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I have read about the multiple phone calls and the *67, but where did you hear about this?
It was in some of the original news articles.

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Old 01-12-2016, 05:19 AM   #14
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Regarding Teresa's key, it's always seemed weird to me that had it's own key "chain" and wasn't part of a larger collection of keys. My car key is on the same loop as my home key, mailbox key etc...

I know the film makers have an agenda and I'm not going to read articles about what was omitted from the series until I'm done. With Brendan's statements excluded, I didn't see proof that Steven Avery specifically killed her.

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Old 01-15-2016, 08:29 AM   #15
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Originally Posted by DevdogAZ View Post
I googled to find out who that super hot reporter
She is distractingly hot. It's like an actress with perfect hair and makeup was dropped into a documentary filled with normal people.

Quote:
Originally Posted by vertigo235 View Post
Yeah but also remember that it could have been anyone, who knew her, not necessarily the police... Avery was a public figure at this point due to the previous trial, so the salvage yard would have been the perfect place to leave her body and car after she was murdered.

Then the police just had to make sure that all the other pieces fell into place.
That's what I'm thinking. If Avery didn't kill her then the frame job was probably a group effort. The killer got it started and the cops helped. I expect the cops thought he did it, they weren't intentionally helping the real killer.

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I found myself getting angry at the prosecutor when he said the key didn't matter very much during closing arguments. What BS! If you believe the key was planted by the cops, that casts doubt on all of the other evidence that the cops had opportunity to manipulate, which would undermine the whole case.
.
That was unreal "Sure, the key was planted. But only because the cops knew he was guilty."

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I am about 95% sure Steve is guilty, however that doesn't mean I believe in half of the evidence. To me, the biggest piece of evidence they didn't show *a bunch of stuff that should be in spoiler tags*
Quote:
Originally Posted by cheesesteak View Post
Regarding Teresa's key, it's always seemed weird to me that had it's own key "chain" and wasn't part of a larger collection of keys. My car key is on the same loop as my home key, mailbox key etc...

I know the film makers have an agenda and I'm not going to read articles about what was omitted from the series until I'm done. With Brendan's statements excluded, I didn't see proof that Steven Avery specifically killed her.
I keep my car key separate and my other keys on a ring clipped in my purse. I need the car key all the time. I rarely touch the others. The clip is on a tether so I could unlock a door without unclipping them.

I'm doing the same thing. I want to watch just the show and then I'll read the extra info.

I wasn't surprised by his conviction. The show is "making of a murderer", I've always assumed that was "normal guy turned into psychopath by false imprisonment".

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Old 01-15-2016, 09:39 AM   #16
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I was being led to believe it was the brother in law who said he was at the hospital and then going hunting.



I thought you were talking about the super hot dude with the salt and pepper hair
I commented to my wife that the press has the only attractive people in Manitowoc county. I guess the face of a 70 IQ is rarely attractive.

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Old 01-15-2016, 11:00 AM   #17
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Couple more thoughts from this episode:

The prosecution claimed, I believe in closing arguments, that the only alternative to Avery killing her was the cops doing it. That's ludicrous. And sadly I think the jury bought it.

Unbelievable that the jury cannot consider his overturned rape conviction since that's what makes the cops framing him a viable theory. I guess the saving grace is that they all know it anyway thanks to the press coverage.

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Old Yesterday, 02:57 PM   #18
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The prosecution claimed, I believe in closing arguments, that the only alternative to Avery killing her was the cops doing it. That's ludicrous. And sadly I think the jury bought it.
Homicide juries tend to want to find SOMEBODY responsible for the killing. The defense had a real problem because they didn't have the evidence to suggest that a particular other person did it.

Even allowing for the bias that we're all seeing in the filmmakers, the prosecution did SO many things in this proceeding that made me shake my head.

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Old Yesterday, 03:06 PM   #19
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Quote:
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The prosecution claimed, I believe in closing arguments, that the only alternative to Avery killing her was the cops doing it. That's ludicrous. And sadly I think the jury bought it.
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Homicide juries tend to want to find SOMEBODY responsible for the killing. The defense had a real problem because they didn't have the evidence to suggest that a particular other person did it.
I think I posted this in the ep. 10 thread, but I heard an interview with Dean Strang where he said that under Wisconsin law, the defense cannot point the finger at alternate suspects unless they have evidence to establish a motive for that alternate suspect. In contrast, the state doesn't have to prove or even have any evidence of motive for the charged defendant. So basically the state has a relatively low burden in bringing charges against someone, and then the defense has a very high burden in trying to get the jury to look elsewhere. Just more evidence of how the system is stacked heavily against criminal defendants, which is the point this documentary was trying to make.

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