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Old 09-22-2013, 08:09 PM   #1
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A Question for TiVo

Why does TiVo prevent the transfer of protected programs THAT HAVE NEVER BEEN VIEWED? How can it be any kind of abuse to viewing restrictions to simply MOVE an UNVIEWED program to another TiVo for viewing? This is obvious and logical -- what can the counter arguement possibly be??? Those of us who suffer with TW want to know. . .
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Old 09-22-2013, 08:43 PM   #2
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Originally Posted by k2ue View Post
Why does TiVo prevent the transfer of protected programs THAT HAVE NEVER BEEN VIEWED? How can it be any kind of abuse to viewing restrictions to simply MOVE an UNVIEWED program to another TiVo for viewing? This is obvious and logical -- what can the counter arguement possibly be??? Those of us who suffer with TW want to know. . .
It's not up to TiVo. The restrictions are set by the providers.
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Old 09-22-2013, 08:47 PM   #3
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It's not up to TiVo. The restrictions are set by the providers.
You are missing my point, moving a recording from point A to B within the same residence is NOT A COPY, there are not TWO (TiVo can assure that), and they have not NOT LEFT THE PREMISES.
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Old 09-22-2013, 08:52 PM   #4
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If you have series 4 or later or TiVo Mini as a client then you can use MRS to view, so just upgrade from your old series 3 or earlier and problem solved.
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Old 09-22-2013, 08:57 PM   #5
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Tivo has not created a "move" protocol. Transfer (which leaves a copy on two machines) and stream (which leaves a copy on the first machine) work as designed, but are limited by the protocols set up in the cablecard standards. You may not personally consider something a "copy", but the standards do.

The new stream offerings are meant to get around the various restrictions from the likes of TW, its not clear to me why this would not work in nearly every scenario with the stream-capable boxes. (Amazon downloads apparently will not stream)
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Old 09-22-2013, 08:59 PM   #6
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If you have series 4 or later or TiVo Mini as a client then you can use MRS to view, so just upgrade from your old series 3 or earlier and problem solved.
That does not solve the problem of equipment upgrades -- I have 1.5GB on an XL4 that I can't move to a new Roamio Pro. Almost all other cable companies allow moves, so it's NOT the program suppliers objecting, and TW is probably just try trying to cover thir butt, so why is TiVo interpreting the NO COPY in the most restrictive way, rather than the spirit of the restriction -- a COPY means there are TWO -- they can make sure there is only one ONE.
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Old 09-22-2013, 09:01 PM   #7
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Tivo has not created a "move" protocol. Transfer (which leaves a copy on two machines) and stream (which leaves a copy on the first machine) work as designed, but are limited by the protocols set up in the cablecard standards. You may not personally consider something a "copy", but the standards do.

The new stream offerings are meant to get around the various restrictions from the likes of TW, its not clear to me why this would not work in nearly every scenario with the stream-capable boxes. (Amazon downloads apparently will not stream)
So WHY NOT a MOVE protocol???
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Old 09-22-2013, 09:03 PM   #8
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You are missing my point, moving a recording from point A to B within the same residence is NOT A COPY, there are not TWO (TiVo can assure that), and they have not NOT LEFT THE PREMISES.
Tivo's don't "move" Premieres and newer CAN and do stream, and that is acceptable to the providers, so that's a solution to your issue that is in play now.
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Old 09-22-2013, 09:58 PM   #9
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So WHY NOT a MOVE protocol???
Most likely due to their concentration on streaming, which has more applications, and thus more sales potential, than creating a "move" functionality.

Not saying you would not find it useful, I see now how it could help with upgrades, but it certainly has little of the wow factor of streaming. Plus, if your box was lifetime, you could stream content from it until it died.
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Old 09-22-2013, 11:03 PM   #10
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That does not solve the problem of equipment upgrades -- I have 1.5GB on an XL4 that I can't move to a new Roamio Pro. Almost all other cable companies allow moves, so it's NOT the program suppliers objecting, and TW is probably just try trying to cover thir butt, so why is TiVo interpreting the NO COPY in the most restrictive way, rather than the spirit of the restriction -- a COPY means there are TWO -- they can make sure there is only one ONE.
You could ask the same thing about other things that are even more directly under TiVo control (not bound by CableLabs DRM). Why not allow moving your season passes, wishlists, thumbs, settings, etc. to the new TiVo? It could be done but it hasn't.
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Old 09-23-2013, 12:29 AM   #11
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In a recent survey I took they mentioned the possibility of being able to move protected recordings to an iPad. Specifically it asked if I would be interested in such a feature even if it meant the original was deleted from the TiVo and the iPad copy could not be moved back. So it seems they are at least considering a move protocol. Although it's not clear if it would also work TiVo to TiVo.
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Old 09-23-2013, 01:09 AM   #12
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That does not solve the problem of equipment upgrades -- I have 1.5GB on an XL4 that I can't move to a new Roamio Pro. Almost all other cable companies allow moves, so it's NOT the program suppliers objecting, and TW is probably just try trying to cover thir butt, so why is TiVo interpreting the NO COPY in the most restrictive way, rather than the spirit of the restriction -- a COPY means there are TWO -- they can make sure there is only one ONE.
The problem is how TW sets the flags on the recording. It would be illegal for TiVo to do anything else but adhere to what TW designates.
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Old 09-23-2013, 03:01 AM   #13
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That does not solve the problem of equipment upgrades -- I have 1.5GB on an XL4 that I can't move to a new Roamio Pro. Almost all other cable companies allow moves, so it's NOT the program suppliers objecting, and TW is probably just try trying to cover thir butt, so why is TiVo interpreting the NO COPY in the most restrictive way, rather than the spirit of the restriction -- a COPY means there are TWO -- they can make sure there is only one ONE.
What cable companies allow it? Cox doesn't
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Old 09-23-2013, 05:26 AM   #14
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It's pretty simple.

We have been complaining for YEARS for TiVo to make a move protocol, and they still haven't implemented one.
Instead, TiVo keeps browning their noses with the cable companies.
And now that streaming is available with the newer DVRs, I'd say we have a snowball's chance in hell of ever getting a move protocol.
TiVo would rather have you upgrade if you want more functionality.

If it will make you feel better, you can make a request for a move function here:

http://advisors.tivo.com/wix5/p2272893819.aspx

... but I wouldn't get my hopes up if I were you.
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Old 09-23-2013, 01:27 PM   #15
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You are missing my point, moving a recording from point A to B within the same residence is NOT A COPY, there are not TWO (TiVo can assure that), and they have not NOT LEFT THE PREMISES.
Not the way Cable Labs defines copies. Broadcasts that are flagged 0x02 are allowed one copy only, and simply recording that broadcast on your Tivo constitutes your one allowed copy.

An attempt to "move" your copy to another device has the effect of creating another copy, which isn't allowed by 0x02.

This was a big deal for Tivo users before MRS came along, because your only multi-room viewing option required the use of extra copies, which were forbidden for users with providers like TWC who routinely set 0x02 on everything.

I'd say that because Tivo has implemented MRS which doesn't care about copy protection that they consider their work complete. I doubt we'll ever see a Cable Labs-compliant "move" operation which respects the "copy once" restrictions.
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Old 09-23-2013, 01:47 PM   #16
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There have been a few posts about Tivo not caring because it has other options (MRS). However, they should care because of users like myself and the OP. I have a TivoHD. I want to badly upgrade to the newest Tivo but I am not because I have too many shows on my existing Tivo and they are all copyrighted so I can't move them. So more than likely I will just stay with the TivoHD until it dies. So Tivo is in fact losing out. And a simply Move protocol to take the show from the TivoHD and move it would solve everything. There should be no copyright issue as the copy on the TivoHD would no longer exist and you are still only dealing with one copy.
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Old 09-23-2013, 01:58 PM   #17
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There should be no copyright issue as the copy on the TivoHD would no longer exist and you are still only dealing with one copy.
But it's not a copyright issue to TiVo at all. It's a cablecard standards issue, which TiVo has no choice about obeying. The cablecard standards do not allow a show to be moved in their present form.

To change this, you need to write to the controllers of CableLabs (ie, Comcast, TimeWarner, etc) and ask them to change the certification procedure for devices which contain cablecards.
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Old 09-23-2013, 03:17 PM   #18
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But it's not a copyright issue to TiVo at all. It's a cablecard standards issue, which TiVo has no choice about obeying. The cablecard standards do not allow a show to be moved in their present form.

To change this, you need to write to the controllers of CableLabs (ie, Comcast, TimeWarner, etc) and ask them to change the certification procedure for devices which contain cablecards.
Actually there is a loophole in the standard that would allow a protected show to be moved provided it is never accessible on two devices at once. The CCI byte prevents the device from creating another copy of the show, it does not specifically prohibit moving the copy you have to another authorized device. It's similar to the streaming loophole. There is no specific rule that allows streaming, but they can do it because they're not technically creating a second copy of the show they're simply playing the original copy in a secondary location.

This is all sort of a gray area and really we wont know if CableLabs has a problem with it until someone like TiVo tries to get away with it and sees how they respond.
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Old 09-23-2013, 03:53 PM   #19
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Actually there is a loophole in the standard that would allow a protected show to be moved provided it is never accessible on two devices at once. The CCI byte prevents the device from creating another copy of the show, it does not specifically prohibit moving the copy you have to another authorized device. It's similar to the streaming loophole. There is no specific rule that allows streaming, but they can do it because they're not technically creating a second copy of the show they're simply playing the original copy in a secondary location.

This is all sort of a gray area and really we wont know if CableLabs has a problem with it until someone like TiVo tries to get away with it and sees how they respond.
My understanding is the CCI standard has the "loophole" as you state, but the cablecard regulations only allow transfers through approved methods, and CableLabs has never established any approved methods for "moving" a protected show. It looked like they were opening the door for a firewire method that did this and other things, but then never followed through on it. So until they establish an approved method, any device that allows "moving" is automatically not compliant.

I agree that Cablelabs has the power to change their certification process and accept a "moving" process - the FCC CCI standard is not a problem. But they don't have any incentive to at this point - cablecards are not the solution of the future.

I last looked into this in detail 5-6 years ago, so they might have changed things, but I think someone would have brought that up here if they had.
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Old 09-23-2013, 04:27 PM   #20
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And a simpl[e] Move protocol to take the show from the TivoHD and move it would solve everything.
While the protocol is easy to describe, if it were easy to implement it would have been done previously.
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Old 09-23-2013, 08:29 PM   #21
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There have been a few posts about Tivo not caring because it has other options (MRS). However, they should care because of users like myself and the OP. I have a TivoHD. I want to badly upgrade to the newest Tivo but I am not because I have too many shows on my existing Tivo and they are all copyrighted so I can't move them. So more than likely I will just stay with the TivoHD until it dies. So Tivo is in fact losing out. And a simply Move protocol to take the show from the TivoHD and move it would solve everything. There should be no copyright issue as the copy on the TivoHD would no longer exist and you are still only dealing with one copy.
1) You are probably such a small subset of TiVo users, that they really can't spend any time trying to make you happy. Seriously, how many users of old generation TiVos (at least 2 gens old) that have copy-protected shows that they HAVE to move to a new TiVo or they won't buy a new one so you miss out on my sale. Say that real fast and you'll realize there are so few of you...

2) Problem solved with new gen TiVos. Stream. That's the answer.

You can whine all you want, but your problem doesn't even EXIST in TiVo's universe. So you are asking them to answer a question that in their eyes doesn't get asked.

Get over it.
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Old 09-23-2013, 09:27 PM   #22
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1) You are probably such a small subset of TiVo users, that they really can't spend any time trying to make you happy. Seriously, how many users of old generation TiVos (at least 2 gens old) that have copy-protected shows that they HAVE to move to a new TiVo or they won't buy a new one so you miss out on my sale. Say that real fast and you'll realize there are so few of you...

2) Problem solved with new gen TiVos. Stream. That's the answer.

You can whine all you want, but your problem doesn't even EXIST in TiVo's universe. So you are asking them to answer a question that in their eyes doesn't get asked.

Get over it.
Your pomposity is very hard to "get over". You'll expect us to listen patiently when your ox is gored.
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Old 09-23-2013, 09:38 PM   #23
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Your pomposity is very hard to "get over". You'll expect us to listen patiently when your ox is gored.
Except for the fact that's he's right on the money, your hardware is old enough that Tivo has pretty much written off its support as a lost cause.

While we all think it'd be nice and upstanding for Tivo to support ancient hardware, it's not in their business interests to do so, I'd lay good money that it's worth losing you as a customer to them if they can get a new Roamio user, that's the way business works when you're barely scraping by.

For me? I buy new Tivo hardware pretty much every generation and then sell the old for the cost of lifetime, it's a win-win for me and Tivo.
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Old 09-23-2013, 09:44 PM   #24
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Except for the fact that's he's right on the money, your hardware is old enough that Tivo has pretty much written off its support as a lost cause.

While we all think it'd be nice and upstanding for Tivo to support ancient hardware, it's not in their business interests to do so, I'd lay good money that it's worth losing you as a customer to them if they can get a new Roamio user, that's the way business works when you're barely scraping by.

For me? I buy new Tivo hardware pretty much every generation and then sell the old for the cost of lifetime, it's a win-win for me and Tivo.
And you "sell the old" how, with gigs of stuff on it you haven't watched yet. . . ?
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Old 09-23-2013, 10:24 PM   #25
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Just set the new TiVo to record the same show, or download whatever this precious recording is from BitTorrent or whatever. This is a lot of whining about nothing. Eventually, your hard drive will fail and you'll lose that show anyway.
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Old 09-24-2013, 06:08 AM   #26
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And you "sell the old" how, with gigs of stuff on it you haven't watched yet. . . ?
Within a month or so it's watched or has been recorded by the new Tivo from a new source. If a series or movie is that important to hold up a Tivo Sale then I'll have bought it on DVD/BR or have another way to watch it.

I'm not a TWC customer, but what's on an old Tivo has never stopped me from getting rid of it.
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Old 09-24-2013, 06:11 AM   #27
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And you "sell the old" how, with gigs of stuff on it you haven't watched yet. . . ?
Nope, not me. I do a Clear & Delete before I sell. So what if I lose the shows that I couldn't move. It's only TV.
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Old 09-24-2013, 07:17 AM   #28
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Except for the fact that's he's right on the money, your hardware is old enough that Tivo has pretty much written off its support as a lost cause.

While we all think it'd be nice and upstanding for Tivo to support ancient hardware, it's not in their business interests to do so, I'd lay good money that it's worth losing you as a customer to them if they can get a new Roamio user, that's the way business works when you're barely scraping by.

For me? I buy new Tivo hardware pretty much every generation and then sell the old for the cost of lifetime, it's a win-win for me and Tivo.
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Old 09-24-2013, 09:34 AM   #29
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Old 09-24-2013, 09:38 AM   #30
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And you "sell the old" how, with gigs of stuff on it you haven't watched yet. . . ?
I am in that situation now. 3 TiVos (Series 3, TiVo HD, & Premiere) with 5.25TBs of combined storage that is 99% full. I don't need any of them anymore and really don't know what I am going to do. I should sell all three as they have lifetime and are all in very good condition. None of my content is protected so I could move it all but do I really want to spend several hundred dollars buying hard drives for my computer to do so? Hard to answer.
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