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Old 01-16-2014, 03:06 PM   #91
jmpage2
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Originally Posted by tarheelblue32 View Post
Well, better than nothing might have to do. I am open to other suggestions, but as the APC one is no longer manufactured and you appear to have cleaned out the stock on ebay, it won't be easy to find.

It will probably be fine. It looks like the APC one is available in a modular version.

http://www.apc.com/products/resource...m?base_sku=PVR

You would probably have to buy the four slot rack for it as well. Your other device seems more economically practical.

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Old 01-16-2014, 03:13 PM   #92
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Originally Posted by jmpage2 View Post
It will probably be fine. It looks like the APC one is available in a modular version.

http://www.apc.com/products/resource...m?base_sku=PVR

You would probably have to buy the four slot rack for it as well. Your other device seems more economically practical.

Yeah I think I'll just go with the Tii point-of-entry surge suppressor. I also have a grounded drop amp that supposedly has some surge suppression to it and I have the coax going to my Roamio going through the coax port on a surge protector power strip. Hopefully all that together will be enough to stop most surges from causing damage. I doubt there is anything on the market that is economically practical that can actually stop a direct lightning strike anyways.

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Old 01-16-2014, 05:11 PM   #93
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Originally Posted by tarheelblue32 View Post
Yeah I think I'll just go with the Tii point-of-entry surge suppressor. I also have a grounded drop amp that supposedly has some surge suppression to it and I have the coax going to my Roamio going through the coax port on a surge protector power strip. Hopefully all that together will be enough to stop most surges from causing damage. I doubt there is anything on the market that is economically practical that can actually stop a direct lightning strike anyways.
Direct lightning strikes on homes are uncommon. Where lightning is common, homes at higher elevations often have lightning rods to at least minimize the damage.

Believe it or not, but a high enough quality surge suppressor that also incorporates a fast fuse can actually sacrifice itself in order to save the connected equipment even in cases of "direct strike".

Nearly all surge damage from strikes is when the lightning hits close to the home location and travels through ground wiring, etc, to enter into the home.


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Old 01-16-2014, 07:11 PM   #94
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Originally Posted by jmpage2 View Post
Direct lightning strikes on homes are uncommon. Where lightning is common, homes at higher elevations often have lightning rods to at least minimize the damage.

Believe it or not, but a high enough quality surge suppressor that also incorporates a fast fuse can actually sacrifice itself in order to save the connected equipment even in cases of "direct strike".

Nearly all surge damage from strikes is when the lightning hits close to the home location and travels through ground wiring, etc, to enter into the home.
So, would the only thing needed be one at the cable POE between the entry feed and any splitters/etc from that entry feed?

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Old 01-16-2014, 09:29 PM   #95
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So, would the only thing needed be one at the cable POE between the entry feed and any splitters/etc from that entry feed?
There is only a need for one at the point of entry. You don't need them anywhere else because surges should only enter over coax from outside of the home, unless you don't have adequate electrical surge suppression on your coax connected electronics which can then back feed over the coax network if they get zapped.

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Old 01-17-2014, 12:58 AM   #96
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So, would the only thing needed be one at the cable POE between the entry feed and any splitters/etc from that entry feed?
Assumed is that a protector works by blocking or absorbing a surge. Protectors that do that are for surges too tiny to damage appliances. Recommendations based in hearsay are easily separated from other recommendations based in science. Destructive surges can be hundreds of thousands of joules. How does any protector absorb that energy? Where is a number for how much energy it will absorb? That number even demonstrates why one device called a protector does virtually no protection. And a completely different device called a protector harmlessly earths hundreds of thousands of joules.

Learn how a protector and protection work. Two completely different components of a surge protection 'system'. Many discuss the item called a protector and completely ignore another more important item called protection. These concepts were originally introduced in elementary school science.

A surge current seeks earth ground. One conductive path to earth was a wooden church steeple. But wood was not conductive enough; creates a high voltage. A 10,000 amps surge current times a resulting high voltage means high energy dissipated destructively in a steeple.

How did Franklin avert damage? He simply diverted lightning to earth on a path that creates a near zero voltage. Then 10,000 amps times a resulting near zero voltage is near zero energy. No damage. Then hundreds of thousands of joules dissipate harmlessly in earth.

Will a power strip protector stop what three miles of sky could not? Of course not. Will its few hundred joules absorb those hundreds of thousands of joules that three miles of sky could not absorb? Of course not. Many make claims by ignoring spec numbers and what was even demonstrated by Franklin.

One 'whole house' protector means 10,000 amps creates a near zero voltage. Just like a lightning rod. But only if connected low impedance (ie 'less than 10 feet') to what actually does the protection - earth ground. Neither lightning rod nor protector do protection. Those are only connecting devices. Protection is always defined by what absorbs hundreds of thousands of joules - earth ground.

Potentially destructive surges occur maybe once every seven years. Facilities that cannot have damage always upgrade earthing to make a 'whole house' protector effective. So that protection already inside every appliance is not overwhelmed.

Numbers that define it. A lightning strike is maybe 20,000 amps. So an effective protector connects at least 50,000 amps low impedance to earth. This superior solution also costs less money; about $1 per protected appliance.

Is a device between entry point and splitter connected low impedance (ie 'less than 10 foot') to single point earth ground? If not, then it does not claim and will not discuss numbers that define effective protection. Protection about a connection to what harmlessly absorbs energy. Useful recommendations always discuss that well proven science.


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Old 01-17-2014, 06:03 PM   #97
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Excellent information on surges and surge protection is at:
http://www.lightningsafety.com/nlsi_lhm/IEEE_Guide.pdf
- "How to protect your house and its contents from lightning: IEEE guide for surge protection of equipment connected to AC power and communication circuits" published by the IEEE (the IEEE is a major organization of electrical and electronic engineers).
And also:
http://www.eeel.nist.gov/817/pubs/sp...%20happen!.pdf
- "NIST recommended practice guide: Surges Happen!: how to protect the appliances in your home" published by the US National Institute of Standards and Technology

The IEEE surge guide is aimed at people with some technical background.

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Assumed is that a protector works by blocking or absorbing a surge.
Neither plug-in or service panel surge protectors work by "blocking" or "absorbing" surges.

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Originally Posted by westom View Post
Destructive surges can be hundreds of thousands of joules. How does any protector absorb that energy?
They don't.

An investigation by the author of the NIST surge guide looked at the amount of energy that could be absorbed at a plug-in protector. Branch circuits were 10m and longer, and surges coming in on power wires were up to 10,000A (which is the maximum probable surge, as below). The maximum energy was a surprisingly small 35 joules. In 13 of 15 cases it was 1 joule or less. Plug-in protectors with much higher ratings are readily available.

(Protectors do not protect by absorbing the surge energy, but they absorb some energy in the process of protecting.)

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Will a power strip protector stop what three miles of sky could not? Of course not.
Of course not.
Plug-in protectors do not work by "stopping".

But both the IEEE and NIST surge guides say plug-in protectors are effective. The only 2 detailed examples of protection in the IEEE surge guide use plug-in protectors.

If using a plug-in protector all interconnected equipment needs to be connected to the same protector. External connections, like coax also must go through the protector. As explained in the IEEE surge guide (starting page 30) plug-in protectors work primarily by limiting the voltage from each wire to the ground at the protector. To do that all wires must go through the protector.

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Originally Posted by westom View Post
One 'whole house' protector means 10,000 amps creates a near zero voltage.
Service panel protectors are a real good idea.
But from the NIST surge guide:
"Q - Will a surge protector installed at the service entrance be sufficient for the whole house?
A - There are two answers to than question: Yes for one-link appliances [electronic equipment], No for two-link appliances [equipment connected to power AND cable or phone or....]. Since most homes today have some kind of two-link appliances, the prudent answer to the question would be NO - but that does not mean that a surge protector installed at the service entrance is useless."

Service panel protectors do not, by themselves, prevent high voltages from developing between power and cable/phone wires. The NIST surge guide suggests most equipment damage is from high voltage between power and signal wires. An example of where a service panel protector would provide no protection is the IEEE surge guide example starting page 30.

But service panel protectors are very likely to protect anything connected only to power wires from a very near very strong lightning strike.

If you have a service panel protector AND if you have an effective cable protector at the point of entry AND there is a short ground wire from both the panel and cable protector to a common connection point, then devices in the house that connect to both cable and power are likely safe.

Gas discharge tubes in a cable protector have a short time delay as the gas ionizes.

During a surge 'event' the wiring in the house may rise far above 'absolute' ground potential. Much of the protection is that all wiring rises together.

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Originally Posted by westom View Post
Numbers that define it. A lightning strike is maybe 20,000 amps. So an effective protector connects at least 50,000 amps low impedance to earth.
An "average" lightning strike is about 20,000A. But that is not the surge current to a house that is caused by the strike (unless lightning hits the house, which requires lighting rods for protection).

The author of the NIST surge guide looked at the surge current that could come in on residential power wires. The maximum with any reasonable probability of occurring was 10,000A per wire. That is based on a 100,000A lighting strike to a utility pole adjacent to the house in typical urban overhead distribution.

Recommended ratings for service panel protectors is in the IEEE surge guide on page 18. Ratings far higher than 10,000A per wire mean the protector will have a long life.

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Old 01-18-2014, 01:26 PM   #98
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I just got the three year extended warranty from TiVo on my Roamio Basic I got from them in November. For only $40 it's not a bad deal. My Roamio Pro has a four year extended warranty from BestBuy. But that cost $70.

Although my Roamio Basic is not on lifetime service like my Roamio Pro is. My Roamio BAsic is on the $6.95 a month plan. But at that rate it takes 57 months to hit the break even point when compared with MSD $400 lifetime service.

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Old 08-30-2015, 03:45 PM   #99
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I would like to know if any one has had the same problem like I have with the extended warranty,

So I purchased a TiVo Roamio with lifetime 3/21/2015, 28 days later I purchased the extended 3 year warranty. So about a month ago it went bad. I called they told me I had to options. I could send mine in and get a replacement or they could send me one and they would charge my credit card for it until I returned the defective one back.
So I chose to send it in. I get another unit back and on my account it didn't show it had warranty. I chatted with them and they told me since the warranty follows the original unit and since they sent me another unit , there for it was not the original unit that I purchased the warranty for so they could not transfer it.
Does that sound ethical and correct.
Am I out of luck or should I call them and talk to a supervisor .

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Old 08-30-2015, 03:58 PM   #100
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I would like to know if any one has had the same problem like I have with the extended warranty,

So I purchased a TiVo Roamio with lifetime 3/21/2015, 28 days later I purchased the extended 3 year warranty. So about a month ago it went bad. I called they told me I had to options. I could send mine in and get a replacement or they could send me one and they would charge my credit card for it until I returned the defective one back.
So I chose to send it in. I get another unit back and on my account it didn't show it had warranty. I chatted with them and they told me since the warranty follows the original unit and since they sent me another unit , there for it was not the original unit that I purchased the warranty for so they could not transfer it.
Does that sound ethical and correct.
Am I out of luck or should I call them and talk to a supervisor .
That's correct. The warranty is a one time use tied to the unit.

I was told by TiVo that you can buy a new warranty on the replacement, although not sure you'd want to.

http://www.tivo.com/legal/extended-w...vice-agreement
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Old 08-30-2015, 04:00 PM   #101
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I would like to know if any one has had the same problem like I have with the extended warranty,

So I purchased a TiVo Roamio with lifetime 3/21/2015, 28 days later I purchased the extended 3 year warranty. So about a month ago it went bad. I called they told me I had to options. I could send mine in and get a replacement or they could send me one and they would charge my credit card for it until I returned the defective one back.
So I chose to send it in. I get another unit back and on my account it didn't show it had warranty. I chatted with them and they told me since the warranty follows the original unit and since they sent me another unit , there for it was not the original unit that I purchased the warranty for so they could not transfer it.
Does that sound ethical and correct.
Am I out of luck or should I call them and talk to a supervisor .
That is TiVos warranty deal, and many other co have the same warranty deal, a one time fix is all you get.

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Old 08-30-2015, 05:56 PM   #102
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Call up the company that insures your house and ask how much they will charge to insure your Roamio? Silly comparison.
Actually, it's not a silly comparison. Funny enough, I was talking to my insurance company Friday and they have a personal property rider that has a deductible separate from the main homeowners policy. And it's pretty cheap. And since it can cover a pool of all my electronics, the cost amortization over time may even be better.

I didn't think too much of it at the time, but now this thread has me thinking - time to go get and read the fine print on it, how it works, etc.

Anyway, I would never buy a policy from BestBuy or other store - they are usually pretty hit or miss. I have just as many friends and family that curse as others who praise the BestBuy warranty fulfillment, for example. I'm not sure about Tivo's policies they sell these days but one would hope that buying it from them a lifetime sub would not be an issue.

I do love SquareTrade - and for anyone who is a Costco member, Costco sells SquareTrade warranties and you do NOT have to buy the thing you are warrantying from Costco (something that doesn't seem to be common knowledge). I bought a very nice Plasma TV from Sam's since Costco was out of them, but bought the $100 warranty from Costco and applied it to said TV. I believe with Tivo's, Squartrade will re-buy the lifetime if it comes to it to get you a box back - I could be confusing it with another warranty provider but I'm pretty sure it was them.

If you have any question they will happily give you a reply in writing - which is important with any contract related thing. If it isn't written down it doesn't exist! Don't believe anything a sales or other person tells you - if you aren't sure but it's important, make 'em show it to you in the fine print!

Anyway, my thoughts and experiences with warranties. In general they have been unnecessary, but they did provide some nice peace of mind if something had happened - which is what insurance is about. Hedging a small sum against a larger one

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Old 08-30-2015, 09:16 PM   #103
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Don't forget, MANY credit cards have built-in extended warranty as a perk if you use them for purchasing electronic devices.

You could have checked with them to see if they'd cover your Tivo under warranty in case of a failure...

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Old 08-30-2015, 09:20 PM   #104
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I would like to know if any one has had the same problem like I have with the extended warranty,

So I purchased a TiVo Roamio with lifetime 3/21/2015, 28 days later I purchased the extended 3 year warranty. So about a month ago it went bad. I called they told me I had to options. I could send mine in and get a replacement or they could send me one and they would charge my credit card for it until I returned the defective one back.
So I chose to send it in. I get another unit back and on my account it didn't show it had warranty. I chatted with them and they told me since the warranty follows the original unit and since they sent me another unit , there for it was not the original unit that I purchased the warranty for so they could not transfer it.
Does that sound ethical and correct.
Am I out of luck or should I call them and talk to a supervisor .
Did they offer you an extended warranty to purchase for the replacement box?

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Old 08-30-2015, 10:21 PM   #105
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Electronics are extremely reliable.
I currently have three legacy TiVos that have been online, working non-stop since day 1:

TiVo Series 3 (8 years)
TiVo Series 2: (12 years)
TiVo Series 1: (14 years.... FOURTEEN!!!, and still on dial-up!)

I would definitely AGREE that some electronics are EXTREMELY reliable!!!

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Old 08-30-2015, 11:07 PM   #106
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Did they offer you an extended warranty to purchase for the replacement box?
yes they said i had 90 days to purchase a new warranty, but after this experiance why even bother if is not for 3 years.I was also still under the original one year warranty

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Old 08-30-2015, 11:14 PM   #107
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thanks for all ure guys help

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Old 08-30-2015, 11:48 PM   #108
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yes they said i had 90 days to purchase a new warranty, but after this experiance why even bother if is not for 3 years. I was also still under the original one year warranty
So, since you had PAID for an extended warranty, even though you were still under the 1 year warranty, they STILL nullified your paid 3 year warranty after replacing the bad Tivo?

That's just dishonest on Tivo's part any way you want to slice it.

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Old 08-31-2015, 08:20 AM   #109
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So, since you had PAID for an extended warranty, even though you were still under the 1 year warranty, they STILL nullified your paid 3 year warranty after replacing the bad Tivo?

That's just dishonest on Tivo's part any way you want to slice it.
Unfortunately:

1. Those are the terms of the extended warranty, clearly stated. So it's not dishonest.

2. You only have 90 days from purchase to buy an extended warranty. Thus if you buy one and have a failure between 90 days and one year you have thrown your money away. It would be nice if that period was one year but again the terms are clearly stated.

Or at least that's how the terms read to me.

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Old 08-31-2015, 12:24 PM   #110
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My experience has been that extended warranties don't usually kick in until after the manufacturer warranty expires. Of course, the terms are where the truth is.

In this case (post #99), the purchase was more than 90 days before the issue came up so labor is no longer covered by tivo. The customer would have had to pay the labor fee (not sure how much but maybe at least $49 since that is exchange cost under continual care) and tivo would cover the parts. In this case, the customer used up the $39 paid for the extended warranty. So the warranty might have saved $10 or perhaps more.

I wonder what might have happened in this case if the failure was within 90 days. The extended warranty does not have a wait period that I can see in the terms. To be fair, tivo should honor their 90 days parts and labor and then let the extended warranty kick in after that. Otherwise, anyone who wants an extended warranty should wait until day 90 to purchase.

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Old 08-31-2015, 01:24 PM   #111
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Originally Posted by estacionsj View Post
I would like to know if any one has had the same problem like I have with the extended warranty,

So I purchased a TiVo Roamio with lifetime 3/21/2015, 28 days later I purchased the extended 3 year warranty. So about a month ago it went bad. I called they told me I had to options. I could send mine in and get a replacement or they could send me one and they would charge my credit card for it until I returned the defective one back.
So I chose to send it in. I get another unit back and on my account it didn't show it had warranty. I chatted with them and they told me since the warranty follows the original unit and since they sent me another unit , there for it was not the original unit that I purchased the warranty for so they could not transfer it.
Does that sound ethical and correct.
Am I out of luck or should I call them and talk to a supervisor .
This is normal. It's right there in the agreement. It's the same at bestbuy. If an item is replaced under the extended warranty then it is no longer in use with the replacement item.


I had a monitor replaced by best buy a few months ago under warranty. I needed to buy a new warranty on the replacement monitor. But at least with BestBuy I got money back. They gave me a gift card for the original price I paid for the monitor 3+ years ago. And with that I purchased the replacement and warranty. But the replacement cost less than it did over three years ago so I had extra credit left to use.

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Old 08-31-2015, 05:41 PM   #112
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So, since you had PAID for an extended warranty, even though you were still under the 1 year warranty, they STILL nullified your paid 3 year warranty after replacing the bad Tivo?

That's just dishonest on Tivo's part any way you want to slice it.
Selling you an extended warranty is already taking advantage of the buyer's gullibility and poor math skills; it is unreasonable to expect the issuer of the warranty to honor it on a new box because the warranty has already served its purpose, i.e., to extract $40 from your pocket and put it into the issuer's.

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Old Yesterday, 09:40 AM   #113
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Compare the two situations (with and without an extended warranty) if you have to have your lifetime TiVo replaced (under warranty) in the period between 90 days and one year after purchase.

Without extended warranty:
You have to pay shipping back and $50 for the replacement -- and you do not get a new warranty on the replacement. The lifetime is transferred.

With extended warranty:
You have to pay shipping back and nothing for the replacement -- and you do not get a new warranty (extended or regular) on the replacement. The lifetime is transferred.

It looks like both cases leave you in the same place. But (ignoring shipping costs which are the same in either case), the net cost with the extended warranty is $40 while it is $50 for the other case. So aren't you ahead by $10 with the extended warranty?

Or did I get something wrong here?

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Old Yesterday, 09:50 AM   #114
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Originally Posted by MikeBear View Post
So, since you had PAID for an extended warranty, even though you were still under the 1 year warranty, they STILL nullified your paid 3 year warranty after replacing the bad Tivo?

That's just dishonest on Tivo's part any way you want to slice it.
Yes , they nullified the 3 year warranty

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Old Yesterday, 09:55 AM   #115
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Originally Posted by MikeBear View Post
So, since you had PAID for an extended warranty, even though you were still under the 1 year warranty, they STILL nullified your paid 3 year warranty after replacing the bad Tivo?

That's just dishonest on Tivo's part any way you want to slice it.
The extended warranty overrides the 1 year warranty if I'm not mistaken. It doesn't give you an additional 3 years after the 1 year.....it replaces the 1 year for a total of 3.

-Kevin

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Old Yesterday, 09:56 AM   #116
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Yes , they nullified the 3 year warranty
No, you used the warranty. One time use.....it's clearly stated in the terms.

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Old Yesterday, 11:14 AM   #117
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Of course insurance policies exist to create profit for the insurance company, but they also do protect the investment you've made in the equipment.

My very first TiVo (HR10-250) cost me $1000 at Best Buy and given the newness of the technology and the constant use of a hard drive, I decided to get the extended. The Best Buy employee was very adamant that if anything went wrong, they'd just cut me a gift card and I could spend it on a replacement or whatever I wanted.

When my hard drive started dying years later, it was a fight to get them to honor the warranty, but they finally acquiesced because they no longer sold or repaired the model and couldn't replace it.

It was painful, but ultimately very much worth it.

Also consider that some credit cards will extend the warranty on a purchase by a year. I've taken advantage of that more than once. Some equipment is just more prone to failure. It's a judgement call.

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Old Yesterday, 01:09 PM   #118
ej42137
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Originally Posted by dlfl View Post
Compare the two situations (with and without an extended warranty) if you have to have your lifetime TiVo replaced (under warranty) in the period between 90 days and one year after purchase.

Without extended warranty:
You have to pay shipping back and $50 for the replacement -- and you do not get a new warranty on the replacement. The lifetime is transferred.

With extended warranty:
You have to pay shipping back and nothing for the replacement -- and you do not get a new warranty (extended or regular) on the replacement. The lifetime is transferred.

It looks like both cases leave you in the same place. But (ignoring shipping costs which are the same in either case), the net cost with the extended warranty is $40 while it is $50 for the other case. So aren't you ahead by $10 with the extended warranty?

Or did I get something wrong here?
Your probability of paying the $40 is 100% in the first scenario; in the second, your probability of paying $50 is much, much lower. What rational person would insure against the possibility of paying $50 by spending $40?

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Old Yesterday, 01:46 PM   #119
kbmb
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Originally Posted by ej42137 View Post
Your probability of paying the $40 is 100% in the first scenario; in the second, your probability of paying $50 is much, much lower. What rational person would insure against the possibility of paying $50 by spending $40?
Hasn't the main issue always been the lifetime service? Because it's tied to the hardware, I think most people view the warranty as protection against losing the lifetime amount paid. Yes, I know TiVo has worked with people to transfer on failed units.....but nothing is written down for that so there are no guarantees unless you have the warranty correct?

-Kevin

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Old Yesterday, 02:25 PM   #120
dtremit
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Originally Posted by jonw747 View Post
Also consider that some credit cards will extend the warranty on a purchase by a year. I've taken advantage of that more than once. Some equipment is just more prone to failure. It's a judgement call.
This. My Amex will extend the warranty of anything I purchase on it for a year, and I think their interpretation would be that TiVo's warranty is a year. So that means no replacement cost for the first 90 days, $49 for the remainder of the first year, and then likely $0 for the year after that.

You also have to take into account the pattern and likelihood of failure for the TiVo itself. The failure pattern for most computers -- and that's what a TiVo fundamentally is -- looks like a reverse bell curve, with failures concentrated in the first few months and at about the five year point. Chances are, if it doesn't fail within the first year, it's probably not going to fail in the first three.

On top of that, the most likely item to fail is the hard drive, followed by the power supply. Both are replaceable for less than TiVo's out of warranty fee, and without interrupting lifetime service.

In the end, then, the extended warranty ends up helping most people only in a very unlikely scenario: a failure between months 24 and 36, which is exactly when the system is least likely to fail. Doesn't seem worth it to me.

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