TiVo Community
TiVo Community
TiVo Community
Go Back   TiVo Community > Main TiVo Forums > TiVo Series3 HDTV DVRs
TiVo Community
Reply
Forum Jump
 
Thread Tools
Old 02-16-2010, 08:14 PM   #1
showpony
Registered User
 
showpony's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Michigan
Posts: 46
Question Slingbox Pro and TiVoHD Problems

There have been several posts, but I have not had any luck in resolving using this past information. So instead of bumping an old post, I will start a new one up.

Overview
I have an S3 upstairs and a TiVoHD in the basement. I was using a Slingbox Pro on the S3 but needed to move it to the basement TiVoHD. While the Slingbox Pro was attached to the S3, it would work fine, whether the TV was on or not.

The S3 to Slingbox Pro configuration was as follows:
- Component out of S3 - into and out of Slingbox Pro - and into TV via Component.

The new TiVoHD to Slingbox Pro configuration is as follows:
- HDMI out of TiVoHD to receiver - receiver to TV via HDMI using monitor signal
- Component out of TivoHD to Slingbox Pro - no output to TV; terminate there.
Wired Cat5e connections to both Tivo and Slingbox.

The problem
the slingbox works fine in every way. The channels change, the video is as good as the remote location can provide, etc. The problem lies when I turn off the TV in the basement. When I turn off the TiVoHD-connected tv in the basement, I lose the signal to the slingbox. This did not happen on the S3 upstairs. I presume this is because there was only one signal to the TV via the component cable. Not a parallel path of component and HDMI.

The Question
Obviously both of these pathways from the TivOHD are live during viewing, but it seems:
- that they both shut off when there is nothing triggering the TiVoHD for a signal?
- Is this the S3 different from the TiVoHD in this respect (where there was no 'signal request' from the HDMI therefore the S3 just defaulted to an 'on' state)?
- What might I do to fix this problem? Is there a setting to keep the outputs in an 'always-on' setting?

Your input is appreciated.
showpony is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-16-2010, 10:12 PM   #2
gweempose
Registered User
 
gweempose's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: Northbrook, IL
Posts: 1,897
I don't think this is an S3 vs. THD thing. What you are running into is a problem with the way HDMI and HDCP works in certain setups. Once you shut your TV off, the TiVo is no longer getting the proper HDCP handshake. Consequently, it shuts off the video outputs for copy protection purposes (yes, this is extremely annoying). Other people have experienced the same problem as you when they try to use the component outputs to feed a TV in another room. Have you tried bypassing the receiver to see if the problem persists even when the TiVo is connected directly to the TV? If this does not fix the problem, your best bet is probably to just avoid the HDMI output altogether and go back to using the component output exclusively.
gweempose is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-16-2010, 10:23 PM   #3
showpony
Registered User
 
showpony's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Michigan
Posts: 46
The Component cables go directly from the Tivo to the slingbox. The HDMI goes to the receiver. They are independent of each other.

So it sounds like if the HDMI is in use, some handshake protocol is initiated for the outputs of the TIVO? and if you use component exclusively, this handshake never takes place in the first place? Bummer.

I don't want to go back to component for several reasons. If this is the case, I may have to look at a different product beside sling.

Is there a Hack that is available to disable this handshake and just leave the ports on full time? There must be. The group here is too good not to have one!

More comments please! I am not ready to let this go.
showpony is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-16-2010, 11:48 PM   #4
wackymann
Registered User
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Boston Area
Posts: 383
Just another data point... I have a Tivo S3 and a Slingbox-HD. I use the HDMI out from the Tivo to my TV (Samsung Plasma), and component out from the Tivo to the Sling Box. It works fine whether or not the TV is on.
wackymann is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-17-2010, 01:10 AM   #5
showpony
Registered User
 
showpony's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Michigan
Posts: 46
let the troubleshooting begin

So i got the tv on and working with the original basement configuration shown in my first post. I am running sligbox desktop simultaneously. No problem.
I went into the TV's setup to see if I could keep the power to the HDMI. There was a setting but I am not sure if it applied to what I am doing. I turn off the tv, leaving the receiver on and my sling media player running on my laptop, The receiver puts out audio, then cuts out after 20 seconds. The A/V on the laptop follows right after the receiver 5 seconds later. I get the HDCP warning screen.

So I start to trouble shoot by removing the HDMI from the Tivo output. Boom! sling player on the laptop kicks back in.

So either the signal from the TV is telling what all the ports on the Tivo should do (regardless if something is hooked up to it or not) or the Tivo sees that there is noting contoling it and keeps all of the outputs working.

I figure this would be an easy software patch to fix. So help me determine which scenario it is and maybe some work-around that don't require me to remember to pull the HDMI before I leave. or even worse have my wife go behind the Tivo to plug it back in. God help me if that is the case.

And NO I will not go back to component only. So what's everyone got?

*2:22AM EST update - tried running the output form the sling to the tv via component, but problem persists.

Last edited by showpony : 02-17-2010 at 01:22 AM. Reason: Update
showpony is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-17-2010, 01:13 AM   #6
showpony
Registered User
 
showpony's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Michigan
Posts: 46
Quote:
Originally Posted by wackymann View Post
Just another data point... I have a Tivo S3 and a Slingbox-HD. I use the HDMI out from the Tivo to my TV (Samsung Plasma), and component out from the Tivo to the Sling Box. It works fine whether or not the TV is on.
which tivo? The S3 or the HD? This could be another point to leverage in the trouble shooting....

What are the settings you have in your tv that control the HDMI ports? Any setting I can try? I am running Bravia XBR9's on both tvs. Thanks for the input!!!!! We'll kill this thing yet.
showpony is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-17-2010, 02:20 AM   #7
gweempose
Registered User
 
gweempose's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: Northbrook, IL
Posts: 1,897
Believe me, I feel for you. I've had my share of HDCP issues over the years, and it can be incredibly frustrating. In fact, the HDMI output on my HDXL recently stopped working with a Samsung LCD, even though that particular setup had been working fine for more than a year. The bottom line is that HDCP is a real pain in the a**! It is a majorly flawed standard, and manufacturers often have completely different ways of implementing it. For this reason, some devices simply won't play nice with each other. Just take a look at how many other TiVo users have had similar problems ...

http://tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/sea...archid=5512015
gweempose is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-17-2010, 03:29 AM   #8
vccat
Registered User
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: Orange County CA
Posts: 10
I have a Tivo HD hooked to a Sony 52XBR6 via HDMI and my Slingbox is hooked to the Tivo HD via Component. Everything works just fine even when to TV is off.
vccat is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-17-2010, 06:58 AM   #9
jcthorne
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: Houston
Posts: 1,938
HDMI with its digital rights managment is a flawed technology. Use the component outputs without DRM and all will work the way you need it to. Big brother does not need to control what you view.

There is NO inherent advantage to the HDMI other than a single plug vs multiple plugs to make the connections. Component is fully capable of supporting resolutions well beyond the HDMI standards.
__________________
Current : Roamio Base with 2TB drive and 2 Premieres and a mini. OTA. kmttg, pyTivo, running with a 78TB Synology 1511 NAS....serving up the world.

Setup help for pytivo under windows:
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
jcthorne is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-17-2010, 07:25 AM   #10
CrispyCritter
Purple Ribbon Wearer
 
Join Date: Feb 2001
Location: North Potomac, MD
Posts: 3,637
Quote:
Originally Posted by showpony View Post
So either the signal from the TV is telling what all the ports on the Tivo should do (regardless if something is hooked up to it or not) or the Tivo sees that there is noting contoling it and keeps all of the outputs working.

I figure this would be an easy software patch to fix. So help me determine which scenario it is and maybe some work-around that don't require me to remember to pull the HDMI before I leave. or even worse have my wife go behind the Tivo to plug it back in. God help me if that is the case.
Your problem is an improper HDCP/HDMI implementation on either your receiver or your TV. When the TV is turned off, your receiver is putting the HDCP connection to the TiVo in an incorrect state. You should check for firmware updates on your receiver (it's more likely to have one than your TV is.)

The TiVo is always outputting all formats except when it is specifically told not to. The receiver is telling the TiVo that the TiVo *cannot* send it an HDCP signal ('cannot' according to the HDCP protocol) once the TV is turned off. So the TiVo stops all output formats.

One fix is to put an appropriate HDMI switch between the TiVo and the receiver. Many switches will allow an HDMI connected device to be turned off without losing the signal to the other HDMI connected devices. This is what you want.
__________________
CrispyCritter
TiVo Roamio:Felix TiVo Premiere:Bob TiVo XL4:Fred TiVo HDXL:Sharon TiVoHD:Susan
CrispyCritter is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-17-2010, 09:33 AM   #11
wackymann
Registered User
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Boston Area
Posts: 383
Quote:
Originally Posted by showpony View Post
which tivo? The S3 or the HD? This could be another point to leverage in the trouble shooting....

What are the settings you have in your tv that control the HDMI ports? Any setting I can try? I am running Bravia XBR9's on both tvs. Thanks for the input!!!!! We'll kill this thing yet.
It's an original S3. I'm not sure about the HDMI settings on the TV - probably left them at the default settings though.
wackymann is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-17-2010, 10:26 AM   #12
gweempose
Registered User
 
gweempose's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: Northbrook, IL
Posts: 1,897
Quote:
Originally Posted by wackymann View Post

I'm not sure about the HDMI settings on the TV - probably left them at the default settings though ...
I don't believe there are any HDMI settings that will have an effect on the way the HDCP handshake is done. For the most part, two pieces of equipment either work properly together, or they don't. As CrispyCritter pointed out, an HDCP compliant switch placed between the two offending devices can sometimes solve the problem. In this case, the switch would go between the TiVo and the receiver. This is why I originally asked the OP if he/she had tried hooking the TiVo directly up to the TV via HDMI without routing it through the receiver. If this works, problem solved, and you don't even lose anything in the process since the TiVo only supports 5.1 channel sound anyway.
gweempose is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-17-2010, 10:49 AM   #13
solutionsetc
Registered User
 
solutionsetc's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Northern Sierra Nevada
Posts: 658
There is nothing you can do to affect the HDMI behavior short of possibly removing the repeater device (that's your receiver). Try hooking the TiVo's HDMI output directly to the TVs input. I know this is not the solution you are looking for but I'm guessing it's the combination of the HDMI repeater device and your TV that is causing your problem.
solutionsetc is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-30-2010, 03:07 PM   #14
MapleLeaf
Registered User
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Redmond, WA
Posts: 113
Ugh, I picked up a Slingbox Pro HD over the weekend and ran into pretty much the same issue. I have a Tivo HD connected via HDMI to my plasma TV. The TV (a Hitachi 42EDT41) is actually an older EDTV, and only has a DVI input, so the Tivo HD is connected to it via an HDMI-to-DVI cable I got from Monoprice.

Anyway, I connected the Tivo HD to the Slingbox via component, and, just as with the OP, things work fine as long as the TV is on. If I turn the TV off, the feed from the Slingbox goes pretty much black, except for a Tivo dialog box in the centre of the screen with an error message to the effect that an HDMI connection is not permitted (I forget the exact phrasing of the message).

I worked around it by removing the HDMI-to-DVI connection between the Tivo HD and my TV, and instead hooking up the component output from the Slingbox to the component input on my TV. In other words, I'm now using the Slingbox in pass-through mode for my regular (non-Sling) viewing. I realise that this is something the OP specifically stated he didn't want to do, but it's the only way I could figure out to work around the issue.
MapleLeaf is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-05-2010, 02:28 PM   #15
mappler
Blah
 
Join Date: Jan 2002
Posts: 93
This is a common problem with Slingbox. If you want to use HDMI, you MUST have another device perform HDCP handshaking for you when your TV is off. The reason this is a problem is because the HDMI specification requires that all other outputs be disabled when the HDMI handshake fails. This is not the fault of Tivo or Slingbox or your TV. Blame should be laid squarely at the feet of those charged with creating the HDMI/HDCP standard. Tivo and your TV manufacturer are required to comply with this.

Workarounds devices are outlined here:
http://www.slingcommunity.com/articl...d-HDCP-Issues/

Personally, I was able to switch to component cables.
mappler is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-05-2010, 02:56 PM   #16
solutionsetc
Registered User
 
solutionsetc's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Northern Sierra Nevada
Posts: 658
Quote:
Originally Posted by mappler View Post
This is not the fault of Tivo or Slingbox or your TV. Blame should be laid squarely at the feet of those charged with creating the HDMI/HDCP standard..
Yup… I love the fact that my EnergyStar certified combo disc player requires me to turn on my TV to listen to multi-channel SACD's.
solutionsetc is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-08-2010, 10:51 AM   #17
showpony
Registered User
 
showpony's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Michigan
Posts: 46
Hey all.
Just checking in after basically being defeated by the revelation of HDCP (which, ironically enough looks like an abbreviated version of handicap....but I digress) and how it controls how my TiVo and TV communicate.

First, let me define "work" in this post: Work in this case means to allow video to pass out of the TiVo via HDMI regardless of whether or not a downstream device is powered on.
There. No confusion.

Now, commenting on an earlier post in this thread: There is a bit of info that I left out: in an attempt to remove the influence which my receiver might have had on this problem, I by-passed it, connecting directly from the TiVo to the TV (Sony 52" XBR9) using HDMI (but still running the audio through my receiver via RCA). This did nothing to correct the problem and make it work correctly.

In another bit of trouble shooting, I also determined that if I disconnect the HDMI at the TV, the problem persists. It is only when I pull the HDMI cable out of the back of the TiVo that the component cables turn on and stream video to my slingbox.
This new information makes me conclude that the HDMI slot in the TiVo, no only provides the path for the video info (via the HDMI path, duh!) but the cable male end/TiVo female end, when connected, basically acts as switch to turn on the HDCP function. Am I correct?

If this switch concept is true, you would think that there would be a way (either with a hardware or software modification to trick the switch into thinking it is always off, yet still supplying power necessary to move the data through the port. right?

One final piece of info I must add (which seems contrary to everything I have just written);

There seems to be an intermittency to this problem! This morning, I awoke to voices in my house, coming from the basement. I moved slowly down to my basement, gun drawn, but all I found was audio for "the ab belt" infomercial, coming through my receiver speakers, with the TV off. It took me a second, but then I realized what was happening.
It seems that if I leave the stereo on for about 8 hours or so, it will SOMETIMES allow for the desired condition to exist. Why would this be? Do I have an HDCP intermittent failure which causes my desired condition?

Anyway, after I finished ordering the Ab Belt , I decided to pen this note to everyone for some perspective.
In the mean time, I have decided on this work-around to get my video feed when in Belgium next week (Red Wings playoffs start baby!!)":
1. Unplug HDMI from rear of the TiVo before I leave.
2. Place a sticky note on top of the TV that reminds my wife that she needs to watch the upstairs TV.

Like I said, some new perspective on this new intermittency I have encountered would be cool. Also, I have read that some have had luck using JP1files? to modify the slingbox firmware. Anyone have info on how this might help (if the problem now has been understood to live in the TiVo)? Thanks. Now get back to your crunches!!
showpony is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-08-2010, 10:58 AM   #18
showpony
Registered User
 
showpony's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Michigan
Posts: 46
Re-reading @mappler post, the hardware "solution" exists: http://bit.ly/cVZFcS
Now, I guess I am more interested in the intermittent nature of my HDCP handshake.
showpony is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-25-2010, 02:30 PM   #19
smgord
Registered User
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Posts: 52
Reviving this thread to bring up a new problem. Just got a Slingbox Pro HD yesterday. Have an original Tivo Series 3. Here is the very odd problem. Because the Mac desktop software cannot stream HD, I set it up through slingbox.com, which can. The remote would not work. I called Slingbox support, and they got it working. I then tried to change the password, and the remote stopped working. Rinse and repeat three times. Each time, they said that the cables must have been unplugged, etc. Um, NO. I finally made the connection between the password changing and the remote not working. On a hunch, I downloaded the outdated Mac Slingbox desktop software. I was able to restore remote functionality with the software, and to successfully change the password without disabling the remote.

I called Slingbox support back to report the bug, and to ask them if they could reproduce it on another machine so that I could be sure it wasn't my box. It doesn't sound like a hardware problem, but I wanted to be sure before my exchange period expired. They kept me on the phone for THREE HOURS, and insisted they couldn't try it on another box because they didn't have administrator password. They were able to reproduce the problem by using my box, and in the end, said I should just exchange the box. I really prefer not to do this if it is a problem with their web site. Has anyone else noticed this problem, or can someone try to reproduce it? I wouldn't ask anyone to mess up their installs, but it can be restored very easily using the desktop software.

Edit: sorry, will repost under a new thread, as it is not a TivoHD but a standard Series 3

Last edited by smgord : 07-25-2010 at 02:33 PM. Reason: mistake
smgord is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-17-2010, 03:02 PM   #20
nataylor
Curiously Strong
 
nataylor's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2000
Location: Houston, TX
Posts: 23,632
TC CLUB MEMBER
Quote:
Originally Posted by showpony View Post
Re-reading @mappler post, the hardware "solution" exists: http://bit.ly/cVZFcS
Now, I guess I am more interested in the intermittent nature of my HDCP handshake.
Can someone tell me what this "hardware" solution is? That link doesn't work any more because slingcommunity is gone.
__________________
If you do things right, people won't be sure you've done anything at all.
iOS Game Center: nataylor
nataylor is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-18-2010, 06:24 AM   #21
jcthorne
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: Houston
Posts: 1,938
Best solution is to switch to component cables ridding yourself of the DRM BS.

The HD Fury II device can do the HDMI handshake and output the signal as component or VGA.
__________________
Current : Roamio Base with 2TB drive and 2 Premieres and a mini. OTA. kmttg, pyTivo, running with a 78TB Synology 1511 NAS....serving up the world.

Setup help for pytivo under windows:
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
jcthorne is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-29-2013, 04:28 PM   #22
steffen707
Registered User
 
Join Date: Oct 2011
Posts: 53
Quote:
Originally Posted by CrispyCritter View Post
Your problem is an improper HDCP/HDMI implementation on either your receiver or your TV. When the TV is turned off, your receiver is putting the HDCP connection to the TiVo in an incorrect state. You should check for firmware updates on your receiver (it's more likely to have one than your TV is.)

The TiVo is always outputting all formats except when it is specifically told not to. The receiver is telling the TiVo that the TiVo *cannot* send it an HDCP signal ('cannot' according to the HDCP protocol) once the TV is turned off. So the TiVo stops all output formats.

One fix is to put an appropriate HDMI switch between the TiVo and the receiver. Many switches will allow an HDMI connected device to be turned off without losing the signal to the other HDMI connected devices. This is what you want.
What would one search for when buying an hdmi switch that allows this always on signal to the tivo, but allows you to shut the tv off?
steffen707 is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply
Forum Jump




Thread Tools


Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Advertisements

TiVo Community
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.6.8
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
vBulletin Skins by: Relivo Media

(C) 2013 Magenium Solutions - All Rights Reserved. No information may be posted elsewhere without written permission.
TiVo® is a registered trademark of TiVo Inc. This site is not owned or operated by TiVo Inc.
All times are GMT -5. The time now is 11:27 PM.
OUR NETWORK: MyOpenRouter | TechLore | SansaCommunity | RoboCommunity | MediaSmart Home | Explore3DTV | Dijit Community | DVR Playground |