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Old 08-22-2013, 11:51 AM   #91
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I just find it funny after growing up in the NE in the 70s and only have THREE Channels plus PBS for OTA and being jealous of my CA cousins who had dozens of channels on their cable.. Now grownup and living in CA, and going thru that whole cable subscription (100s of channels) myself only to find I am now quite happy going back to old OTA with only 20+ "english" channels in glorious HD for free (well, except for the price of the rooftop Antennas).
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Old 08-22-2013, 12:05 PM   #92
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I just find it funny after growing up in the NE in the 70s and only have THREE Channels plus PBS for OTA and being jealous of my CA cousins who had dozens of channels on their cable.. Now grownup and living in CA, and going thru that whole cable subscription (100s of channels) myself only to find I am now quite happy going back to old OTA with only 20+ "english" channels in glorious HD for free (well, except for the price of the rooftop Antennas).
Yeah, I'm quite satisfied with the 4 major networks and PBS. I get a lot of other channels that don't really contribute to what I watch, just old reruns. I've deleted many from my received channel lineup, specifically any of the Spanish, religious, or shopping type channel. I still have the other minor ones in there, because you never know when you're going to need to watch a Sanford and Son or Hogan's Heroes episode...
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Old 08-22-2013, 01:52 PM   #93
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I wish!
I meant (to answer justen_m) that it's dead as far as TiVo is concerned. None of the new models has analog, and I feel safe in predicting that no future models will have it, either. The two-tuner Premieres will prove to be the last TiVos with analog support.
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Old 08-22-2013, 02:06 PM   #94
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ATT, Verizon, TW and Comcast all reported net loss of video subscriptions the last 2 quarters. The only 'major' I saw with video subs up was WOW. Not sure I saw reports from RCN. Yes there are LOTS of video subscribers but the trend is away, not toward and that was my point.

Actually you said there is a large rate of subscribers leaving. And there just isn't. And those subscribers that are lost are going to satellite and Iptv providers according to the chart which are essentially in the same business providing similar services.
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Old 08-22-2013, 02:10 PM   #95
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Nope, Dish and DirectTV are both down for the last 2 quarters as well.
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Old 08-22-2013, 02:13 PM   #96
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I believe I've posted this source before, but the NAB contends that OTA-only households are on the rise.

http://www.nab.org/documents/newsroo...se.asp?id=3168

Of course, they are an advocacy group for broadcasters, so perhaps factor any potential bias into their findings.
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Old 08-22-2013, 02:20 PM   #97
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Nope, Dish and DirectTV are both down for the last 2 quarters as well.
Lol. The point is the paytv market as a whole is staying steady and even slowly growing. There is no large rate of subscribers leaving as you stated.

The market is fairly saturated at this point too. It can't grow like it did the past 10-20 years. And to get new customers you have to take them away from existing providers.

The small losses that individual providers experience say more about market saturation than anything.

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Old 08-22-2013, 02:25 PM   #98
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I'm sure TiVo knows how many of their customers are actually using OTA, including those using both OTA and cable, and made a decision based on that info. If they really thought there was a market for a higher end unit with OTA then we'd have one. It's not like they're doing it out of spite. Like everything in the corporate world it's about money and what they think they can sell. If this was really the booming market segment you seem to think then why aren't there any other companies selling OTA DVRs?

The reality is that most cord cutters do it to save money, so it makes sense to make the OTA TiVo as inexpensive as possible. Know your audience.
Agreed.

I was serious about my earlier question though. Of cable fails, how difficult is it to reconfigure the TiVo for OTA only, assuming you have an antenna? I'm thinking about getting a backup antenna.
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Old 08-22-2013, 02:26 PM   #99
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What is this large rate of customers being lost? I see very small numbers being lost compared to total subscribers. And most of those losses you hear about are probably being picked up by satellite or FiOS or even Google.

OTA has its own problems. CAn you get signal? IF so, can your antenna pick up all the major channels from one location? IF not then you have to put a rooftop antenna up.

And then the economics of broadcast tv are in question. Many say their future is on shakey ground.
The last number I saw, within the past week, implied that many of the subscribers lost by the cable and satellite companies were picked up by ATT and FiOS.

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..The top nine cable operators lost about 550,000 net subscribers in the 2013 second quarter while the nation's two satellite services (DIRECTV and Dish) lost 162,000. However, the telco TV operators, Verizon and AT&T, added 373,000 subs, compared to last year when they added 275,000...
http://www.tvpredictions.com/leitchtman081913.htm
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Old 08-22-2013, 02:28 PM   #100
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Agreed.

I was serious about my earlier question though. Of cable fails, how difficult is it to reconfigure the TiVo for OTA only, assuming you have an antenna? I'm thinking about getting a backup antenna.
You only have to go through guided setup again. With OTA only, it's a much faster process too.
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Old 08-22-2013, 02:34 PM   #101
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Agreed.

I was serious about my earlier question though. Of cable fails, how difficult is it to reconfigure the TiVo for OTA only, assuming you have an antenna? I'm thinking about getting a backup antenna.
You have to repeat guided setup. Takes about 20 minutes.
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Old 08-22-2013, 02:38 PM   #102
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Lol. The point is the paytv market as a whole is staying steady and even slowly growing. There is no large rate of subscribers leaving as you stated.

The market is fairly saturated at this point too. It can't grow like it did the past 10-20 years. And to get new customers you have to take them away from existing providers.

The small losses that individual providers experience say more about market saturation than anything.
You sound a lot like apple fans a year or two ago.

No, the trends show the pay tv market is shrinking and loosing subscribers. Over 100k this quarter. The OTA only numbers are rising.

Its still overwhelmingly biased toward pay tv customers but the trend is clear. Or are all the trade papers just wrong too?

Whatever. Believe what you want. Lets get back to Tivo discussions.
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Old 08-22-2013, 06:04 PM   #103
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Tivo made a major mistake with OTA or Cable, but not both

There are many viewers who get much or most of their stations via cable, but who have a few that are only available with OTA.

And this situation is likely to grow, with what seem likely to be increasing corporate fights between networks and cable companies that use the customers as pawns. The most visible of these situations now is between Time Warner Cable and CBS; as a result, customers of Time Warner in a number of major markets including New York City, Los Angeles, and Dallas can only get CBS via OTA.

We may well have a future is which a viewer wishing to get multiple major channels needs both cable and OTA, concurrently.

Tivo's new boxes may well prove to be technologically obsolete in the not too distant future. Caveat Emptor, and if you are planning to buy a Roamio, it would be prudent to google "Time Warner" and "CBS" to learn about this problem.
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Old 08-22-2013, 06:10 PM   #104
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You sound a lot like apple fans a year or two ago.

No, the trends show the pay tv market is shrinking and loosing subscribers. Over 100k this quarter. The OTA only numbers are rising.

Its still overwhelmingly biased toward pay tv customers but the trend is clear. Or are all the trade papers just wrong too?

Whatever. Believe what you want. Lets get back to Tivo discussions.
Is that chart wrong? It shows total pay tv customers at the same levels as 2 years ago if not slightly higher. Where is this large rate of subscriber loss you talk about?

It isnt insightful and doesn't provide an accurate picture when you extrapolate small subscribers losses from individual providers into a gloom and doom trend for the paytv industry.

Plus anyone "cutting the cord" wouldn't need both analog and cable tuners working at the same time. The market has to be extremely small. Tivo's overall install base is already pretty small to begin with.

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Old 08-22-2013, 06:20 PM   #105
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But you wouldn't want to pay for both... It would have required a duplication of the tuners in your base TiVo to handle that.

What most people do not know is that the 2 Tuner TiVo's actually has the chipset to handle 4 Tuners - two dedicated to cable and two dedicated to OTA.

So in order to make a 4 tuner TiVo that works with OTA - the dicision is either or. (or add a second chipset and hardware to support it. $$$)
While I totally agree with your analysis, I can't imagine the actual cost of the components would have been more than $15. Even if they didn't want to spend that money on the low end box, they certainly could have added it in the higher end ones. Or, like someone else said, make it a plug-in OPTION. That would have been the best idea yet.... all three boxes could have had a simple USB plugin dongle that supports adding OTA to the existing cable tuners.

Oh well.
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Old 08-22-2013, 06:22 PM   #106
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There are many viewers who get much or most of their stations via cable, but who have a few that are only available with OTA.

And this situation is likely to grow, with what seem likely to be increasing corporate fights between networks and cable companies that use the customers as pawns. The most visible of these situations now is between Time Warner Cable and CBS; as a result, customers of Time Warner in a number of major markets including New York City, Los Angeles, and Dallas can only get CBS via OTA.

We may well have a future is which a viewer wishing to get multiple major channels needs both cable and OTA, concurrently.

Tivo's new boxes may well prove to be technologically obsolete in the not too distant future. Caveat Emptor, and if you are planning to buy a Roamio, it would be prudent to google "Time Warner" and "CBS" to learn about this problem.
It is a stretch to use a temporary contract battle as a reason for Tivo to provide simultaneous OTA and cable tuners in one box.

Besides you can keep your old Tivo around for these rare times or just watch tv live on that channel until the dispute settles. You can always buy 2 new Tivos too.
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Old 08-22-2013, 06:23 PM   #107
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Yeah, I'm quite satisfied with the 4 major networks and PBS. I get a lot of other channels that don't really contribute to what I watch,
My "network" TV consumption might be about 10%. The rest is just a handful of quality cable TV channels like NatGeo, History, Science, and AMC (and a few others). 90% of the cable channels are CRAP, but that remaining 10% blows away network TV.
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Old 08-22-2013, 06:56 PM   #108
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My "network" TV consumption might be about 10%. The rest is just a handful of quality cable TV channels like NatGeo, History, Science, and AMC (and a few others). 90% of the cable channels are CRAP, but that remaining 10% blows away network TV.
So agree. I mainly watch ID, AMC, CNN, USA, TNT, Lifetime, and the occasional Syfy & OWN. The networks have very little to offer anymore. That said, I still rather have a TiVo that supports OTA so I'll save a few $$ and get the basic Roamio.
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Old 08-22-2013, 07:08 PM   #109
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So agree. I mainly watch ID, AMC, CNN, USA, TNT, Lifetime, and the occasional Syfy & OWN. The networks have very little to offer anymore. That said, I still rather have a TiVo that supports OTA so I'll save a few $$ and get the basic Roamio.
I almost did the same thing, but the lack of built in MoCa and small hard drive threw me off.
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Old 08-22-2013, 08:34 PM   #110
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There are many viewers who get much or most of their stations via cable, but who have a few that are only available with OTA.

And this situation is likely to grow, with what seem likely to be increasing corporate fights between networks and cable companies that use the customers as pawns. The most visible of these situations now is between Time Warner Cable and CBS; as a result, customers of Time Warner in a number of major markets including New York City, Los Angeles, and Dallas can only get CBS via OTA.

We may well have a future is which a viewer wishing to get multiple major channels needs both cable and OTA, concurrently.

Tivo's new boxes may well prove to be technologically obsolete in the not too distant future. Caveat Emptor, and if you are planning to buy a Roamio, it would be prudent to google "Time Warner" and "CBS" to learn about this problem.
Thank you Alex. Thank you for showing all of us that you have absolutely no idea what you are talking about. Thank you.
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Old 08-22-2013, 10:03 PM   #111
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I'm one of those in the L..A. area that can't see cbs thru cable... A product that has ota and cable capability is very attractive..What the marketing "geniuses" at tivo fail to realize is that there is a huge market that is furious with the cable companies, furious that their cable bill keeps going up and up, and in some areas furious that they are being blocked from a major network. For those of us an extra $50 or $100 for a product with both ota and cable capability, with 10/100/1000 Ethernet, would be worth it if it gave us the ability to cut the cable, to be wooed back by cable for lower "introductory" offers, to get cable and ota so we won't get major networks blocked .... . But the last thing we want is to pay $499 for lifetime for a product that pales in comparison to the product that is geared for cable only, the same cable that we are furious with.... The marketers that keep thinking of the ota folks as the "cheepies" that won,t pay for anything but the cheapest components are missing the whole point... How ridiculous to think that those of us furious with cable wouldn't pay $50 or $100 more for a solid product, when we stand to save $100 a month or more and could be wooed back for cable services at half of what we are paying now (if we even want to come back). ... Tivo you just don't get it!!!

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Old 08-22-2013, 10:17 PM   #112
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My "network" TV consumption might be about 10%. The rest is just a handful of quality cable TV channels like NatGeo, History, Science, and AMC (and a few others). 90% of the cable channels are CRAP, but that remaining 10% blows away network TV.
For you, sure. I don't watch as much as many do, but I enjoy what I think are quality network programs. When I used to actually have those cable channels, I barely watched them. Certainly wasn't worth the cost. Now I just rent or stream the good stuff later. I don't feel the need to watch everything in first run.
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Old 08-22-2013, 10:40 PM   #113
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There are many viewers who get much or most of their stations via cable, but who have a few that are only available with OTA.
TiVo probably has statistics on exactly how many of their customers use cable, OTA, and dual-input lineups. We can only speculate, but they know.
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Old 08-22-2013, 10:51 PM   #114
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While I totally agree with your analysis, I can't imagine the actual cost of the components would have been more than $15. Even if they didn't want to spend that money on the low end box, they certainly could have added it in the higher end ones. Or, like someone else said, make it a plug-in OPTION. That would have been the best idea yet.... all three boxes could have had a simple USB plugin dongle that supports adding OTA to the existing cable tuners.

Oh well.
Is that something that could be developed independently / after the fact?
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Old 08-22-2013, 10:55 PM   #115
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I'm one of those in the L..A. area that can't see cbs thru cable... A product that has ota and cable capability is very attractive..What the marketing "geniuses" at tivo fail to realize is that there is a huge market that is furious with the cable companies, furious that their cable bill keeps going up and up, and in some areas furious that they are being blocked from a major network. For those of us an extra $50 or $100 for a product with both ota and cable capability, with 10/100/1000 Ethernet, would be worth it if it gave us the ability to cut the cable, to be wooed back by cable for lower "introductory" offers, to get cable and ota so we won't get major networks blocked .... . But the last thing we want is to pay $499 for lifetime for a product that pales in comparison to the product that is geared for cable only, the same cable that we are furious with.... The marketers that keep thinking of the ota folks as the "cheepies" that won,t pay for anything but the cheapest components are missing the whole point... How ridiculous to think that those of us furious with cable wouldn't pay $50 or $100 more for a solid product, when we stand to save $100 a month or more and could be wooed back for cable services at half of what we are paying now (if we even want to come back). ... Tivo you just don't get it!!!
How many times has one of the 4 major networks been blocked in the past 10 years and for how long and was it during summer or during the 1st-run tv show season?

Dynamic OTA/cable tuners: For those times when you are caught between a cable provider's and a major network's payment dispute. It would be a hilarious back of the box bullet point.
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Old 08-22-2013, 10:57 PM   #116
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I would have liked the Plus/Pro to support OTA, but they don't. I just bought a base model for OTA support and will keep a base Premiere as a backup.

It's pretty clear why TiVo went the way they did (reduce how cost). I suspect we will see a dual OTA/Cable model in the Series 6 if a 6 tuner compatable chip becomes available
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Old 08-23-2013, 12:35 AM   #117
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Bye.

I suspect the base Roamio will be more than enough for most OTA only users and it's available now. No need to wait for somebody else's vapor ware.
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Old 08-23-2013, 01:29 AM   #118
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Is that something that could be developed independently / after the fact?
After the fact: Maybe
Independently: Not realistically
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Old 08-23-2013, 06:38 AM   #119
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Is that something that could be developed independently / after the fact?
Not really. The hardware could be, but TiVo would have to modify their software to use it. And we know how many years it can take TiVo to change something, even something badly in need of change...
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Old 08-23-2013, 11:05 AM   #120
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In the Bay Area here, OTA has like 60 channels available, granted many are PBS and non-english (and some dup networks) but that still leaves 20+. All 5 (if included CW) networks, PBS and several Independent (e.g., ION, KOFY, KRON, KICU) and now several retro sub-channels (AntennaTV, Cozi, etc). There are times I do have all four of my tuners (2-S3s) recording at once or within the same 60 minute period. Absolutely, no reason to pay for cable as I have more than enough free TV to watch (or stream...if needed)..
That's nuts. We have the 4 big ones, a bunch of foreign, a handful of Jesus stations and like 3 PBS stations. So, basically, 4 channels I would watch.
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