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Old 08-21-2013, 12:52 PM   #31
atmuscarella
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That is true. I wonder if that's a large number of people. Seems like Joe Consumer would pretty much just do one or the other.
Also none of these new units can do analog (cable or OTA) and I know there are a few people who have stated their cable companies still have some analog only channels. Personally I am glad they found a way to continue to support OTA - I was beginning to worry that the 2 tuner Premiere might be their last OTA DVR.
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Old 08-21-2013, 12:52 PM   #32
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I'm sure that will be easy enough. I bought the cheapest Premiere, and upgraded to a 2TB drive quite easily. I'll just wait to see when someone comes up with the upgrade procedure.
Really depends if the internal drive is a 2.5" or 3.5". As the form factor is smaller they could have moved to a 2.5" drive.
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Old 08-21-2013, 01:36 PM   #33
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Really depends if the internal drive is a 2.5" or 3.5". As the form factor is smaller they could have moved to a 2.5" drive.
I guess that would make it a bit more expensive, but not impossible. If it's not upgradeable, that would be a big issue for me.
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Old 08-21-2013, 02:19 PM   #34
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I have to hang on to what I have, again.

TiVo is insufficient for the situation where I live, it keeps the smaller New England States from accessing one of the country's top ten media markets in Boston with an antenna while keeping cable on one guide.

Hello, Chromecast at $35 for future streaming introductions.

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Old 08-21-2013, 02:34 PM   #35
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Has anyone pointed out yet that there are only 4 OTA channels worth watching?

I mean, sure you have some tiny channels... but like, you can record NBC, ABC, Fox and CBS all at the same time. What are the 2 other tuners doing? Watching the public broadcast system?

I am sure that's why no one makes a 6 channel chip. There's only 4 channels.
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Old 08-21-2013, 02:34 PM   #36
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For me, I don't see much reason to have OTA and digital cable at the same time.

I would have liked to have seen OTA and analog cable support. That way I could get my OTA HD and my basic cable channels without renting a cablecard.
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Old 08-21-2013, 03:12 PM   #37
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Has anyone pointed out yet that there are only 4 OTA channels worth watching?

I mean, sure you have some tiny channels... but like, you can record NBC, ABC, Fox and CBS all at the same time. What are the 2 other tuners doing? Watching the public broadcast system?

I am sure that's why no one makes a 6 channel chip. There's only 4 channels.
I could have said the same for satellite when I subbed as I only watched a few channels. The reality is there are places that have dozens of OTA channels the fact you may not be interesting in the programing on them doesn't mean others aren't. I regular record from ABC, CBS, CW, NBS, Fox, & PBS and sometimes form ION and some of the PBS sub channels. Without padding I don't believe I have ever needed more than 4 tuners (I have 8 available), but there are times when I need to pad because of live events.
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Old 08-21-2013, 03:17 PM   #38
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Originally Posted by Grakthis View Post
Has anyone pointed out yet that there are only 4 OTA channels worth watching?

I mean, sure you have some tiny channels... but like, you can record NBC, ABC, Fox and CBS all at the same time. What are the 2 other tuners doing? Watching the public broadcast system?

I am sure that's why no one makes a 6 channel chip. There's only 4 channels.
In the Bay Area here, OTA has like 60 channels available, granted many are PBS and non-english (and some dup networks) but that still leaves 20+. All 5 (if included CW) networks, PBS and several Independent (e.g., ION, KOFY, KRON, KICU) and now several retro sub-channels (AntennaTV, Cozi, etc). There are times I do have all four of my tuners (2-S3s) recording at once or within the same 60 minute period. Absolutely, no reason to pay for cable as I have more than enough free TV to watch (or stream...if needed)..
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Old 08-21-2013, 03:23 PM   #39
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I just discovered by accident that even though the local CW channel is broadcast on cable in SD you can actually pick it up OTA in HD. Apparently it's a low power station that is then rebroadcast as SD on a sub-channel of a high power station. For some reason Charter uses the SD sub-channel rather then the HD source.

In any case I have a cheap rabbit ear type antenna and I can pick it up with about 70% power, which seems to be enough, so I reran GS on my Premiere for Cable & Antenna and set my two CW season passes (Arrow and Supernatural) to use the antenna instead.

Since I still have about 30 channels that are analog only I have to keep the Premiere around anyway. However I never really use it directly. I typically watch everything it records via streaming on my Elite anyway. So if I replace the Elite with a Roamio then I'll have the best of all worlds.
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Old 08-21-2013, 03:32 PM   #40
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I must be a little slow today how are you having to choose between better streaming and OTA?
My guess: Stream capability embedded in the box vs standalone Stream box.
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Old 08-21-2013, 05:16 PM   #41
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Need OTA along with Cable card

As a TimeWarner customer I found out how valuable having the OTA capability is when TimeWarner cut off CBS. I don't know how long this will go on, but I am glad I can still record some programs if I choose over the air and more over cable.
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Old 08-21-2013, 05:17 PM   #42
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Really depends if the internal drive is a 2.5" or 3.5". As the form factor is smaller they could have moved to a 2.5" drive.
3.5" has been confirmed, so that's cool.
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Old 08-21-2013, 05:20 PM   #43
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My frustration is that even with the OTA-capable box, it is EITHER cable OR OTA, not both at the same time.
Exactly. That was a *HUGE* letdown for me. I use BOTH at the same time- OTA is always a much better picture and a decent backup if cable fails.

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I'm losing a key feature from my older TiVos, but I did decide to order one anyway. I would have gladly paid for the Plus or Pro if it had the ability to do OTA and Cable. I guess I'm in a tiny minority.
We ARE a minority, but you are not alone.
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Old 08-21-2013, 05:22 PM   #44
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JUst buy 2 Tivos. Problem solved.
Not really
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Old 08-21-2013, 05:24 PM   #45
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For me, I don't see much reason to have OTA and digital cable at the same time. .
OTA picture quality is almost always MUCH better than cable, which lowers the bitrate and re-compresses. And sometimes cable providers do not carry all the channels that are available OTA. And then there are the stupid fights and channel blackouts.

I have been using dual on the HD and Premiere happily for years.
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Old 08-21-2013, 05:25 PM   #46
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The reality is there are places that have dozens of OTA channels the fact you may not be interesting in the programing on them doesn't mean others aren't. I regular record from ABC, CBS, CW, NBS, Fox, & PBS and sometimes form ION and some of the PBS sub channels. Without padding I don't believe I have ever needed more than 4 tuners (I have 8 available), but there are times when I need to pad because of live events.
Exactly. If you want to pad, that will double your tuner usage right there, for a short time, anyway. I have been in a jam a few times with just 2 tuners.
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Old 08-21-2013, 05:31 PM   #47
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Exactly. That was a *HUGE* letdown for me. I use BOTH at the same time- OTA is always a much better picture and a decent backup if cable fails.
Don't forget all of us in the middle of the TWC/CBS war. The only way I can get CBS and several other channels is OTA for the time being. Just being able to hook up an antenna and add 2-1 and 9-1 back is a big benefit.

What i would love to see is for TiVo to do something like what Moxi did a few years ago... add support for USB OTA tuners. Those who need them could simply plug them in and those who don't won't.
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Old 08-21-2013, 07:38 PM   #48
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What i would love to see is for TiVo to do something like what Moxi did a few years ago... add support for USB OTA tuners. Those who need them could simply plug them in and those who don't won't.
That is an EXCELLENT idea. Even it if was a single tuner, it would make for a great addon.
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Old 08-21-2013, 08:03 PM   #49
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OTA picture quality is almost always MUCH better than cable, which lowers the bitrate and re-compresses...
I can tell you from first hand experience that OTA broadcasters do the exact same thing to take advantage of their ~19Mbps HD bandwidth so they can squeeze in a sub-channel or two. The NBC affiliate I worked for as the transmitter engineer took our HD channel bandwidth from about 19 to 12 Mbps. Of course who knows what comcast did to it once they received it from us.
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Old 08-21-2013, 08:13 PM   #50
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I can tell you from first hand experience that OTA broadcasters do the exact same thing to take advantage of their ~19Mbps HD bandwidth so they can squeeze in a sub-channel or two. The NBC affiliate I worked for as the transmitter engineer took our HD channel bandwidth from about 19 to 12 Mbps. Of course who knows what comcast did to it once they received it from us.
In some areas, cable can actually provide the local stations at a higher quality than OTA when they get the feed from fiber. I know my local Charter doesn't compress the local OTA stations at all.
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Old 08-21-2013, 08:18 PM   #51
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I can tell you from first hand experience that OTA broadcasters do the exact same thing to take advantage of their ~19Mbps HD bandwidth so they can squeeze in a sub-channel or two. The NBC affiliate I worked for as the transmitter engineer took our HD channel bandwidth from about 19 to 12 Mbps. Of course who knows what comcast did to it once they received it from us.
I have compared the bitrate from all my OTA HD stations to Cox. It was a long time ago, and I don't recall the exact numbers, but there was a huge difference. I was amazed they could re-compress (transcode) 1080i on the fly like that. It is also how they are able to add overlays if they wish.
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Old 08-21-2013, 08:23 PM   #52
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Hmm, I just found some partial notes showing what WAS being broadcast by some of the local OTA HD in 2007, but nothing about Cox:

WHRO-HD 1080i 65,000 kbps
WAVY-DT: 1080i 65,000 kbps
WVEC-DT: 1080i 80,000 kbps
WTKR DT: 1080i 15,992 kbps
That's impossible. The ATSC spec has a maximum bitrate of 19.2Mbps or 19,200 kbps. All of the above values exceed that except one.
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Old 08-21-2013, 08:23 PM   #53
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The way I look at it, I'd have to keep my Premier XL for analog cable anyway so I have 4-6 tuners for OTA, which is what I primarily watch, and up to 2 tuners for analog cable.
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Old 08-21-2013, 08:44 PM   #54
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JUst buy 2 Tivos. Problem solved.
No, that actually creates even more problems.

That would be twice the cost to buy two Tivos.

Twice the subscription fee (or Lifetime fee).

The remote will operate both Tivos simultaneously so that's no good.

Two Tivos would take up two HDMI inputs instead of just one (and there is no Component Video output on the base model so that's no help).

Would cause you have to switch TV inputs just to switch from an OTA channel to a Cable channel.

I don't have any of these problems with my trusty old S3 - i need to be able to simultaneously record a race on ESPN and a game on CBS OTA seamlessly like i do on my S3 and none of the Roamios can do this.
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Old 08-21-2013, 08:45 PM   #55
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Is that documented somewhere? I hadn't seen it.

In any case, as a cord cutter, I'm quite happy with a 4 tuner OTA cheap model. Seems like just what I want!
I may become a cord cutter so the basic model is my choice.
I don't want to be boxed in with the other models.
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In the Bay Area here, OTA has like 60 channels available, granted many are PBS and non-english (and some dup networks) but that still leaves 20+.
We have many in the Denver area also.
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OTA is always a much better picture and a decent backup if cable fails.
How difficult would it be to configure it to OTA if cable fails?
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Old 08-21-2013, 09:23 PM   #56
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Exactly. That was a *HUGE* letdown for me. I use BOTH at the same time- OTA is always a much better picture and a decent backup if cable fails.



We ARE a minority, but you are not alone.
I have a S2DT, analog cable, TivoHD, OTA Digital HD and SD (yes, there are some tiny low power stations that still broadcast analog, mostly religious channels and some sports), Digital Cable, and Analog Cable (which has some channels I don't get via digital)

I am Native American, Jewish, and now _another_ minority!

I want a four tuner that supports OTA, analog cable and digital cable. Does any of the new offerings have that so I can replace my S2DT and TivoHD? (I need (want) four tuners on one device for easy scheduling).
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Old 08-21-2013, 10:20 PM   #57
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I want a four tuner that supports OTA, analog cable and digital cable. Does any of the new offerings have that so I can replace my S2DT and TivoHD?
Analog is dead.
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Old 08-21-2013, 10:27 PM   #58
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That's impossible. The ATSC spec has a maximum bitrate of 19.2Mbps or 19,200 kbps. All of the above values exceed that except one.
Hmm, right you are. I pasted it right from my notes, so I am not sure what happened. I can't remember six years ago! I will strike it from my other posting.
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Old 08-21-2013, 10:31 PM   #59
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We ARE a minority, but you are not alone.
Thanks. I think we need to create a support group.
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Old 08-21-2013, 10:32 PM   #60
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Thanks. I think we need to create a support group.
And a 10 step program...
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