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Old 07-15-2014, 07:23 AM   #1861
slowbiscuit
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Dude you're way beyond help, even though you sometimes provide useful information. Stop taking **** so seriously.
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Old 07-15-2014, 07:32 AM   #1862
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Originally Posted by slowbiscuit View Post
Dude you're way beyond help, even though you sometimes provide useful information. Stop taking **** so seriously.
But NoOneUKnow is right, he pretty much summed up the average conversation here.

Quote:
Member A: "If you cross the street without looking, you might get ran-over".
Member B: "I crossed the street without looking, and did not get ran-over".
Member C: "I suggest never crossing the street, let the chicken do it".
Member D: "There are no streets or cars, now run along and play on the asphalt surface with the fast moving objects".
Member E: "My street is made out of concrete aggregate, so does this still apply?".
Member F: "I always cross the street without looking, and have never had a problem with being ran-over".
Member G: "I didn't look, got ran-over, and now I'm in a full body cast".
Member H: "You are all a bunch of idiots! The correct term is 'run-over' ".

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Old 07-15-2014, 09:38 AM   #1863
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I see Newegg has the WD red 4TB drives on sale today. It might be a good time to pick one up if I plan to try the 4TB upgrade procedure.

In the past I never checked any drives before going into service. With hundreds of them they were always fine. But now it seems like there are more issues with the drives. Plus there must be a reason that many of the warranties are shorter now. But now I always run the diagnostics before Putting them into service. I've had more issues with a couple of new drives over the last year than all the drives I used the ten years prior.
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Old 07-15-2014, 09:43 AM   #1864
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Originally Posted by slowbiscuit View Post
Dude you're way beyond help, even though you sometimes provide useful information. Stop taking **** so seriously.
It's an almost thankless job. But, somebody has to do it.

If you want silliness and ridiculousness, there's a 20.4.2 update thread in the Premiere area where people are arguing over whether the speed difference of the UI overhaul is allowed to be called "snappy" or "snappier". If that's more your speed, you can jump is on defining what "is" is.

I just don't like NewEgg's system classifying the PURX as a "newer model available" when on the EURX product pages, and that misinformation making it's way on here (it has come up). I questioned it's suitability as a single drive TiVo solution before NewEgg started that. WD doesn't even market it that way.

The WD Purple PURX line is made for scalable-capacity motion activated Security DVR use, and is not intended to be always recording. It's designed to have 20% idle time. Achieving idle time on a TiVo buffering even 2 tuners is not possible, the way TiVo does their AV without using the AV Streaming Feature. Without that, the MTTF/MTBF ratings go out the window, according to WD's product selection service. It's specifically the idle3 state (platters spinning, heads parked), which until recently (the Roamio) was something that would cause warm-boot hang ups, and had to be disabled with the wdidle3.exe tool. Given the idle3 timer's history with TiVo, and the Purple PURX line's longevity depending or that, plus motion activated cameras giving the drives less workload in TB/yr, who would want it, with a single drive workload of 60TB/yr? My answer would be an uninformed person, attracted by the low price, or somebody who just wants to check it out on a testbed.

The WD Red NAS (EFRX) is positioned to be the best replacement for the WD AV-GP (EURX) drives, should they be phased-out, unless WD creates yet another product line.

Some people like to make informed decisions, and come here looking for information. If anybody feels my posts are too long and too serious, I invite them to go try to find the same info in the several thousands of pages worth of technical data out there, and filter out marketing from specifications and standards. Happy hunting, and kiss your eyesight goodbye.

Right now I'm running three 3TB WD Red NAS drives through a series of tests setup to emulate the way TiVo writes AV data, at Ultra-ATA data rates, like TiVo. I'm also (in addition) testing with the parameters they were designed for by WD. Tom's Hardware did something similar, but only on the first gen Nasware models. I'm running the same tests on the much-improved Nasware 2.0 revision.

AnandTech has been the best hardware site for finding the info people would actually want, plentiful links for citing what they paraphrase, and comparing marketing and specifications to real-world usage scenarios. My posts have a lot of data from AnandTech. What I add, that they don't have, is how any of it may relate to use in a TiVo.
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Old 07-15-2014, 10:00 AM   #1865
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I see Newegg has the WD red 4TB drives on sale today. It might be a good time to pick one up if I plan to try the 4TB upgrade procedure.

In the past I never checked any drives before going into service. With hundreds of them they were always fine. But now it seems like there are more issues with the drives. Plus there must be a reason that many of the warranties are shorter now. But now I always run the diagnostics before Putting them into service. I've had more issues with a couple of new drives over the last year than all the drives I used the ten years prior.
Yes, absolutely, WD's reviews are in the sewer lately. Some of the drives with over 3 years worth of positive ratings, still look good on the surface, until you look at recent reviews.

If you should happen to get a fail result where WinDLG says "too many bad sectors", drop me a PM. Sometimes there's absolutely nothing wrong with the drive, and I'd like to see if my workaround to getting all pass results, with no sector reallocation for this specific false failure result might be something I should pass on to WD.

You could actually help with my testing by running HDD Scan surface tests with the block size set to 8192 logical sectors (default is 256). If you do, skip the butterfly-read one. It's just not the kind of test a Red NAS drive is cut-out for. The full results can be saved to a .mht file for each test.

Good luck!
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Old 07-15-2014, 11:37 AM   #1866
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---
EDIT/INSERT: I made this post while living in the Mojave Desert, with broken air conditioning. I blame dehydration and sweat in my eyes for failing to reign in my instinct to shoot first and ask questions later. Welcome to TCF, and sorry about the hasty and intolerant response.
---
Apology accepted.
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Old 07-15-2014, 12:10 PM   #1867
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The WD Purple PURX line is made for scalable-capacity motion activated Security DVR use, and is not intended to be always recording. It's designed to have 20% idle time.
All hard drives are designed for 24/7/365 use with no idle time. WD has taken to creating different colored hard drives with no real differences between them just so they can create different pricing levels within their own brand.

It's about capacity, price, and warranty. And with a Tivo maybe noise. It used to be about reliability, but there's only two hard drive manufacturers now, so their isn't much of a choice there.
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Old 07-15-2014, 12:14 PM   #1868
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Exactly - all this crap is just splitting hairs, but anal retentiveness runs strong in some.
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Old 07-15-2014, 01:01 PM   #1869
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All hard drives are designed for 24/7/365 use with no idle time.
Just because that's what you are used to, and you like it, doesn't mean it will stay that way.

Perhaps a contest is in order to find the most non op-ed sources of where drive technology is at, and where it is headed (and what will be left behind)...

Articles from GRC dated 2001 don't count.
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Old 07-15-2014, 01:09 PM   #1870
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Exactly - all this crap is just splitting hairs, but anal retentiveness runs strong in some.
If using a drive as it is designed to be used means it outlasting the warranty, and less potential of losing everything on it, that will appeal to some.

Others will be just fine with a 3yr warranty and getting an RMA for replacement before the warranty is up, and losing everything on the drive.

Last I checked, TiVo doesn't have RAID support. So, one (internal) drive will just have to do. If the naysayers of the "All drives....." camp were up to speed on things, there wouldn't be much to disagree on except which mfg people choose to trust their data with.

EDIT/ADD: The other forces at play are government mandates that everything become (more) energy-efficient, or else... I wouldn't expect that to go away, just because some like using their Pentium 4 towers with everything always-on, always at maximum speed, as a space heater to keep them warm in their caves.
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Last edited by nooneuknow : 07-15-2014 at 01:36 PM. Reason: See edit/add
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Old 07-15-2014, 03:25 PM   #1871
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---


TCF - The only place I know where people interact in the following manner:

Member A: "If you cross the street without looking, you might get ran-over".
Member B: "I crossed the street without looking, and did not get ran-over".
Member C: "I suggest never crossing the street, let the chicken do it".
Member D: "There are no streets or cars, now run along and play on the asphalt surface with the fast moving objects".
Member E: "My street is made out of concrete aggregate, so does this still apply?".
Member F: "I always cross the street without looking, and have never had a problem with being ran-over".
Member G: "I didn't look, got ran-over, and now I'm in a full body cast".
Member H: "You are all a bunch of idiots! The correct term is 'run-over' ".
lol. That's the gist of my experience everywhere.
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Old 07-15-2014, 04:09 PM   #1872
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On Amazon, the WD30EURX is $151 while the WD30EFRX is only $122.
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Old 07-15-2014, 06:15 PM   #1873
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On Amazon, the WD30EURX is $151 while the WD30EFRX is only $122.
Even though it's supposed to be over, the WD40EFRX is still showing $159.99, 1-3PM PT Shell Shocker Deal @ NewEgg, and even when placed in my cart. Limit 3.

I just don't think the extra 1TB is going to do much for my needs. I'll pass. Maybe others can still get it at that price, no promo code required: http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...82E16822236599

I'll take a drive I can repurpose for use other than TiVo, over the limited uses for AV & AV-GP drives, any time (that I have excess money to spend).

The EFRX seems to be routinely in the sweet-spot now for best 5400RPM drive for the money.
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Old 07-15-2014, 06:18 PM   #1874
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I was thinking about picking one up but I think I will hold off for now. I could definitely use the extra 1TB in my Roamio Pro. But I also have a Seagate 4TB drive in my TiVo Desktop machine so I will just continue using that for overflow for now.
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Old 07-16-2014, 12:26 AM   #1875
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WD40EFRX is still showing $159.99 @ NewEgg

I'm still able to access and cart these as of right now, just in case this will finally expire at midnight PT. I'll check again after midnight and post if this price is still sticking. Anybody else ever see a "should have expired Shell Shocker sale item" stick on the expired price before and still say Shell Shocker on the product page, minus the "limited time offer" line?

Quote:
Originally Posted by nooneuknow View Post
Even though it's supposed to be over, the WD40EFRX is still showing $159.99, 1-3PM PT Shell Shocker Deal @ NewEgg, and even when placed in my cart. Limit 3.

I just don't think the extra 1TB is going to do much for my needs. I'll pass. Maybe others can still get it at that price, no promo code required: http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...82E16822236599

I'll take a drive I can repurpose for use other than TiVo, over the limited uses for AV & AV-GP drives, any time (that I have excess money to spend).

The EFRX seems to be routinely in the sweet-spot now for best 5400RPM drive for the money.

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Old 07-16-2014, 03:00 AM   #1876
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Here's a thought:

If you find a good deal on a drive that your TiVo can use, but that also could be used in a PC or NAS or something, get it, and then when a good price comes along on an A/V drive of the same size, get it and "dd" the old one to the new one and repurpose the old one.
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Old 07-16-2014, 09:35 PM   #1877
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Here's a thought:

If you find a good deal on a drive that your TiVo can use, but that also could be used in a PC or NAS or something, get it, and then when a good price comes along on an A/V drive of the same size, get it and "dd" the old one to the new one and repurpose the old one.
I'm not seeing where the logic is in that, when the price of identically-sized WD Red NAS and WD AV-GP drives are often the same price when they are on sale. NewEgg's Shell Shocker prices have sometimes been the same as when they run their usual multi-day sales with email subscriber codes. They aren't always worth spending money you don't have, just to snap them up within a 2 hour window.

Also, when it comes to 4TB drives, "dd" copies take a VERY long time. I wouldn't want a new, or uninformed, member to think that this would be fast and easy, and would insure the cablecard pairing stays fully intact.

When I buy drives for TiVo use, I don't gamble on the drives I get being non-DOA, or lasting as long as they should. I buy more than I need. NewEgg reviews on WD drives are so bad (recently and currently), this is almost boilerplate advice now. If I buy 5 drives, need three, and luck-out on them being good, I end up with two drives I can use for other things. If I bought Red NAS, that leaves me with extra drives with less limitations on what I can use them for. I can put them into a NAS device, and offload content to them, as well. If I'm always buying Red NAS, I'm not left with drives I'd only use in TiVos, either as extra from buying more than needed, or from a decision to increase TiVo capacity.

The bad reviews on hard drives, due to DOA and "infant mortality" situations, are not limited to WD, although they seem to be worse for WD, AFAICT. If the reviews had turned for the better, I'd probably have caved, and got some 4TB drives, since the price took until midnight to reset to $15 higher.
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Old 07-18-2014, 08:44 PM   #1878
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Just saw this if it'll work and anyone wants to use the new home brewed 4TB option in their Roamio:

http://www.woot.com/offers/hitachi-g...74cd-298083713
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Old 07-18-2014, 11:18 PM   #1879
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Just saw this if it'll work and anyone wants to use the new home brewed 4TB option in their Roamio:

http://www.woot.com/offers/hitachi-g...74cd-298083713
I have the 1 TB version in my Series 3 going on 8 years now. I think I paid $400.00 for it.... They do make a slight "clunking" sound but we use one in our bedroom and it's never been a problem.
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Old 07-21-2014, 12:17 PM   #1880
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Newegg has Western Digital WD Green WD40EZRX 4TB drive for $139.99

until 11:59pm PT on 7/22/2014 with PROMO CODE: EMCYTZG686
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Old 07-21-2014, 12:24 PM   #1881
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Just saw this if it'll work and anyone wants to use the new home brewed 4TB option in their Roamio:

http://www.woot.com/offers/hitachi-g...74cd-298083713
Sold out, I almost wooted it but got distracted by some Vizio TV's they had and got an extra 32" smart tv instead!
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Old 07-21-2014, 03:59 PM   #1882
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I have the 1 TB version in my Series 3 going on 8 years now. I think I paid $400.00 for it.... They do make a slight "clunking" sound but we use one in our bedroom and it's never been a problem.
I got several of them in early 2007 to put in my S3 boxes. But I got the external drives for around $300 and removed the hard drive from the case. They were the first 1TB drive and it had 5 platters. They actually run rather hot. But my GF still has two of those S3 boxes and so far the drives have been working great. They have been running, 24/7, for over seven years with zero issues.

Unfortunatel,y I don't have that much faith in the hard drives that are available today.
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Old 07-21-2014, 07:06 PM   #1883
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. They have been running, 24/7, for over seven years with zero issues.

Unfortunatel,y I don't have that much faith in the hard drives that are available today.
That why no matter how much one may try to find the "best" drive for the TiVo, you could never tell, anybody would be happy with 8 years on a 24/7 hard drive, but what new ones, if any, will do that, some may but you will not know until 2022.
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Old 07-22-2014, 02:37 PM   #1884
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Apologies for asking a question that's probably been answered recently, but I did search and didn't find anything later than January (it would be great if the initial post in the thread could be updated). Is it possible yet to just drop in a 4TB hard drive, or is WeaKness still the only option? Thanks!
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Old 07-22-2014, 02:42 PM   #1885
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Apologies for asking a question that's probably been answered recently, but I did search and didn't find anything later than January (it would be great if the initial post in the thread could be updated). Is it possible yet to just drop in a 4TB hard drive, or is WeaKness still the only option? Thanks!
Not quit a drop in but see http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb...d.php?t=517860
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Old 07-22-2014, 02:47 PM   #1886
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^ Thanks for the quick response!
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Old 07-22-2014, 03:28 PM   #1887
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I see WD came out with 5TB and 6TB Red drives this week. They use 1.2 TB platters and only use a little more power than their 4TB drives.
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Old 07-22-2014, 05:01 PM   #1888
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I see WD came out with 5TB and 6TB Red drives this week. They use 1.2 TB platters and only use a little more power than their 4TB drives.
Also available in Green.

Interesting that unlike the 6TB drive from WD subsidiary HGST, there's no indication that any of these new offerings are helium filled.
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Old 07-22-2014, 06:34 PM   #1889
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I see WD came out with 5TB and 6TB Red drives this week. They use 1.2 TB platters and only use a little more power than their 4TB drives.
Ugh...

If I read one more datasheet, or ATA/ATAPI publication, my head WILL explode...

I'm guessing PMR, to get the density. Hopefully, this direction of things will result in the 3 & 4TB ones dropping in price, and eventually the newer technologies used in the lower capacity drives. I don't think I want to be buying any WD drives anytime soon... Reviews are still reporting way too many DOA and "infant mortality" experiences.

I'm finding that the read/write speeds of the 3TB WD Red NAS drives I got before the bad batches (thankfully non-DOA), decline in performance with TiVo use. I'm compiling benchmark results from drives with differing amounts of use in TiVos, to forward to WD, and ask if I can expect a 20MB/s throughput drop for every six months of use, as a "normal" situation, or if I have drives that are bad in some other way (other than DOA/IM)...

EDIT/ADD: If the capacity increase is from SMR (Shingled), as opposed to PMR (Perpendicular), I want nothing to do with such drives. Shingled recording brings the woes of wear leveling (like with SSD) to platter drives, where parallel tracks are being overwritten... <head exploded>
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Last edited by nooneuknow : 07-22-2014 at 06:39 PM. Reason: head exploded
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Old 07-26-2014, 03:30 PM   #1890
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After reading a bunch of these posts and threads i have come to the conclusion that the best method to upgrade the storage on my roamio plus is swapping out the internal storage for a 3tb drive. Iv read that any hd will work but does any body know which works best? WD has a a color system to differentiate between hd types; green, blue, black, red, red pro, etc. Does anybody know which is best?

thanks a bunch!
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