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Old 05-31-2014, 10:10 AM   #1771
nooneuknow
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Originally Posted by lessd View Post
Somebody was trying to sell his reverse engineered WK 4Tb drive information for $20, people on this Forum though that to be immoral to sell somebody's else's work.
IIRC, that person just DD-style cloned to an image file and compressed it. That's not "reverse engineering", IMHO.

They seemed to think that if they only sold enough copies to get their money back, it was A-OK. Then, they threatened to just go on ebay/craigslist, when the forum members with morals disapproved.

It was so nice how quickly and cleanly that thread died.

Here's to hoping it doesn't become reborn within this thread...
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Old 05-31-2014, 12:22 PM   #1772
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Originally Posted by nooneuknow View Post
IIRC, that person just DD-style cloned to an image file and compressed it. That's not "reverse engineering", IMHO.

They seemed to think that if they only sold enough copies to get their money back, it was A-OK. Then, they threatened to just go on ebay/craigslist, when the forum members with morals disapproved.

It was so nice how quickly and cleanly that thread died.

Here's to hoping it doesn't become reborn within this thread...
Is their a moral difference between "reverse engineering" and a "DVD copy (ISO file)" both that can be used by anybody to make up a Roamio 4Tb drive from the work that WK did ??
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Old 05-31-2014, 01:25 PM   #1773
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Is their a moral difference between "reverse engineering" and a "DVD copy (ISO file)" both that can be used by anybody to make up a Roamio 4Tb drive from the work that WK did ??
As far as I am concerned, and how I see things: No.

I wasn't trying to defend the person, or draw lines. I believe they considered what they were doing to be "reverse engineering", while I didn't see it that way.

It's a gray-area, when it comes to these things. The 3rd-party drives are sold without the buyer agreeing to any TOS/EULA, nor is there any notice enclosed saying "reverse engineering, cloning, or resale is prohibited". I also don't see anything stating that a prepped drive must be purchased for each and every TiVo the buyer owns. I'm not saying this makes it right, or moral, to do such things. It's just some observations I'm sharing.

I have suspicions that TiVo legal may have made the no TOS/EULA part of an agreement (if one exists), for those who ask permission to sell upgrades. Technically, and realistically, WK makes their images by reverse-engineering what TiVo made to begin with.

TiVo's software is built on open-source software/code, which they have made proprietary. There's a term for it: Tivoization. There's a wikipedia page on it: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tivoization

If somebody asked me how to clone a prepped drive, for another TiVo they owned (or just to retain a virgin image), I'd likely advise them how to do it, and recommend against doing it for anything more than their own personal use. Some may find this immoral, and see it as cheating WK, and/or stealing/theft. In this day/age, where almost everything has warnings about what you are not allowed to do with it, I find it interesting, the absence of that with 3rd-party images/drives.

I really don't want this subject matter to get another run. It always goes the same way. There's polar-opposite opinions, bickering, pitchforks & torches, and it always ends without a consensus, and the opposites go back to their corners.

I probably just raised another batch of questions people can ask, and try to paint me in a certain light with. I think I've said enough. I don't want to dig my own grave, or spend a week defending my moral stances.

Realistically, technically, and legally, I think it's possible that TiVo holds more rights to what is on any prepped drive, than the 3rd-parties selling them.
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Old 05-31-2014, 06:24 PM   #1774
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> Is their a moral difference between "reverse engineering" and a "DVD copy (ISO file)" both that can be used by anybody to make up a Roamio 4Tb drive from the work that WK did ??

There is a significant legal difference.

Reverse engineering is a legally defined and approved method to develop a compatible work, without copying the original product. Doing it properly sidesteps copyright protection and trade secret protection.

Copying the work is a violation of the rights of the copyright owner. Respecting this right is imperative, otherwise there's no reason to expend the effort in the reverse engineering. This translates to Reverse Engineering honors copyright, but Copying violates it.

Those really interested:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clean_room_design

To fully analyze the morality of this, you would have to include governmental policy against monopolistic restrictions against competitors creating compatible products in a capitalistic economy.

(ala, AT&T telephones, IBM PC-compatibles, printer cartridges, universal garage door openers, 3rd party video games, and an absurd amount of auto-parts)

> Realistically, technically, and legally, I think it's possible that TiVo holds more rights to what is on any prepped drive, than the 3rd-parties selling them.

That can be true, depending on what's on the image and how it was made. There's different type of images and different methods even if they end up bit identical.

> I have suspicions that TiVo legal may have made the no TOS/EULA part of an agreement (if one exists), for those who ask permission to sell upgrades.

I leaned the opposite way. If WK had a redistribution license from Tivo itself, it would have come with notice requirements. The fact that WK does not spell out it's legal standing or process, implies it's just as gray as any other vendor.

Last edited by telemark : 05-31-2014 at 09:57 PM.
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Old 05-31-2014, 09:50 PM   #1775
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> Is their a moral difference between "reverse engineering" and a "DVD copy (ISO file)" both that can be used by anybody to make up a Roamio 4Tb drive from the work that WK did ??

There is a significant legal difference.

Reverse engineering is a legally defined and approved method to develop a compatible work, without copying the original product. Doing it properly sidesteps copyright protection and trade secret protection.

Copying the work is a violation of the rights of the copyright owner. Respecting this right is important, otherwise there's no reason to spend effort in the reverse engineering.
If reverse engineering is used, as you said above, to develop a compatible work, without copying the original product I am in full agreement with you, but if reverse engineering is used to produce a computer program that makes up a TiVo drive, no different than the original, the issue is not so clear, at least to me. I don't think there can be any copyright issue with putting a blank 3Tb or smaller drive into a Roamio and having the Roamio format that drive, as that would be a TiVo made drive copy.
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Old 06-01-2014, 09:38 AM   #1776
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WD30PURX?

Went to Newegg looking for the WD30EURX and the WD30PURX showed up as "click here to find newer model"

Anybody know anything about these Purple drives? Compatibility, power consumption, etc?
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Old 06-01-2014, 10:04 AM   #1777
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WD30PURX?

Went to Newegg looking for the WD30EURX and the WD30PURX showed up as "click here to find newer model"

Anybody know anything about these Purple drives? Compatibility, power consumption, etc?
It's more expensive.
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Old 06-01-2014, 01:41 PM   #1778
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WD30PURX?

Went to Newegg looking for the WD30EURX and the WD30PURX showed up as "click here to find newer model"

Anybody know anything about these Purple drives? Compatibility, power consumption, etc?
I saw that as well, and reported it in at least two threads. Nobody made a comment.

They are the WD Purple line. It's basically a cross-breeding of WD AV-GP with WD Red NAS, with more settings that can be tweaked, like TLER.

All the links you need to know all that I know can be found by spending some time skimming through the NewEgg pages for it.

When I first spotted the EURX as "old model" and PURX as "newer model', I spent a few days researching. The Purple seems to be a bad idea for TiVo, going by WD's own data sheets and marketing. PURX drives are meant for AV-processing raid arrays. Using a single drive was not recommended, leading me to wonder if the AV-GP is really going to go EOL.

Both the AV-GP and the Red NAS are video capable dives, while the AV-GP is more tuned for single-drive AV, and the Red NAS is more tuned for NAS, using one drive, or an array of drives.

Given the way the Red NAS couldn't be firmware updated to the NASware 2.0, if they were too old, I'd steer clear of purple, just in case they find it needs a 2.0 firmware, that might only be available on v2.0.

Customer satisfaction with the Red NAS v1 drives was not very good, but went to awesome with v2.
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Old 06-06-2014, 05:02 PM   #1779
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Seagate 3TB?

What about this for the Basic OTA Roamio?

Seagate NAS HDD ST3000VN000 3TB 64MB Cache SATA 6.0Gb/s Internal Hard Drive It's $104 from newegg right now, and is designed for NAS.

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...2178392&cm_sp=

I am having trouble finding a deal on WD Reds, from my understanding, the base Roamio can't handle more than 3 TB.
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Old 06-06-2014, 06:28 PM   #1780
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I am having trouble finding a deal on WD Reds, from my understanding, the base Roamio can't handle more than 3 TB.
For DIY people that true now, but WK does have a 4Tb solution, and others are working on a DIY solution for Roamio 4Tb drives, for sometime in the future. See http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb...d.php?t=516898
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Old 06-09-2014, 04:01 PM   #1781
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new hard drive and cable card

When I upgraded my tivoHD 5 years ago, I did not have to do anything about re-pairing the cable card. I just followed the procedure and installed the new larger hd and it worked
Now with the Romio, if it has been running for a month with the stock HD and I upgrade to a larger 2TB HD, will I have a cable card issue or when it reboots and whatever else happens, will it work. I read 25 pages on this forum so far, and not sure of this question.

Thanks in advance
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Old 06-09-2014, 04:11 PM   #1782
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When you updated the TiVo HD, you probably copied the drive to a new larger drive and expanded it. This preserved the cableCARD pairing. We currently do not have that option for the Roamio so you will lose the pairing information. This is true for the Motorola M-Cards. Not sure about Scientific Atlantic cards.
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Old 06-09-2014, 04:18 PM   #1783
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I just wanted to say thanks to everyone here in this monster thread for the info about upgrading. I'm just about to leave DirecTV and my last TiVo was a Series 2, the HR20-250. Now, it looks like I'm going to Time Warner we all know what THEIR boxes are like. So getting back into TiVo and upgrading the drive is Job 1.

I've read through most of the thread today, but must have missed the issue with pairing. Are we saying that after upgrading, to get the premium channels we need to call the cable company and ask them to repair the card with our boxes? Sorry, but I missed this somewhere.

It's been literally years since I've posted here. It's good to be back.
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Old 06-09-2014, 04:21 PM   #1784
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When you updated the TiVo HD, you probably copied the drive to a new larger drive and expanded it. This preserved the cableCARD pairing. We currently do not have that option for the Roamio so you will lose the pairing information. This is true for the Motorola M-Cards. Not sure about Scientific Atlantic cards.
I'm on Comcast (Moto cable card) system and set up my first Roamio Plus with the original drive and paired the cable card to make sure all worked, after about a week of working as a test I upgraded the Roamio to 3Tb and expected to have to re-pair the cable card, but the V val was not a ? and all the HBO etc ch came in, so the pairing info may be in the flash part of the Roamio Plus OS, this was just my experience.
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Old 06-09-2014, 04:29 PM   #1785
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Originally Posted by jmbach View Post
When you updated the TiVo HD, you probably copied the drive to a new larger drive and expanded it. This preserved the cableCARD pairing. We currently do not have that option for the Roamio so you will lose the pairing information. This is true for the Motorola M-Cards. Not sure about Scientific Atlantic cards.
I can confirm the same for SA/Cisco cablecards.

I've confirmed it at least six times, since trying different drives in my base Roamios.

Some relevant data on pre-Roamio models of TiVo:
Even with a sector-by-sector clone of a TiVo HD drive, or a Premiere drive, I had to re-pair, after placing the clone in (even if it was the same model and size drive) after the cablecards had been flashed to a newer firmware, than the days when I didn't have to re-pair (about two cc firmware updates back).

I've been chastised, in the past, for suggesting that one of the cablecard firmware revisions started verifying the drive was the same. Some have said it's impossible for the card to know, or there's no way for it to get that data.

Even if a direct mechanism doesn't exist for the cablecard to tell the drive's serial number has changed, I'm convinced something is allowing it to know (perhaps some mechanism within the TiVo itself, which may have been something TiVo was required to have in place).

Edit/Add: It's entirely possible that some cable markets still don't employ whatever technique (I suspect) is being used to detect the drive's serial number has changed, and killing the pairing authorization. I'm in a market that makes little use of the CCI-bit protection, but may be making up for that by insuring the pairing data only works with the drive and card in-place during pairing.

I've also noticed that the few CCI-bit protected recordings I wind up with, become unable to play back if the card is removed, or another is put in its place (paired or not paired). The TiVo error will say that no signal was available, even though I'd previously watched the content before.

I've read posts of people inquiring about filling up one drive, then placing in another, and wanting to know if the first drive will still operate and play the content. I suspect the reasons why anybody would want to do this (besides keeping a "porn drive"), would be the same reasons that (some) cable operators (or markets) don't want pairing data to survive a drive swap.

I've asked a few of the people I look up to, as experts, if they could just isolate exactly where the pairing data is, and back up just that data, and make a way to restore just that data. So far, nobody seems to have seen the value of it, just doesn't understand why I'd want that, or just doesn't want to take the time and make the effort to try.

Maybe that will change soon. Even if it doesn't prove useful, it might at least prove some systems are actively nuking cloned pairing authentications.
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Old 06-09-2014, 05:12 PM   #1786
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I'm on Comcast (Moto cable card) system and set up my first Roamio Plus with the original drive and paired the cable card to make sure all worked, after about a week of working as a test I upgraded the Roamio to 3Tb and expected to have to re-pair the cable card, but the V val was not a ? and all the HBO etc ch came in, so the pairing info may be in the flash part of the Roamio Plus OS, this was just my experience.
Curious. I am on Charter. Now granted, I did not pop out my drive and let the Roamio reformat a new one as I was working on a 4TB upgrade, but when I went back from my 4TB to my original drive I had to re-pair the cableCARD to the unit because my Data ID changed (the other values remained the same) and my validation value was a ?. I was able to get all of my non premium channels and some of my premium channels with the card in the state. After I called Charter and had the cableCARD paired back up, my validation value was a v and I got all my premium channels. Not sure if our difference is due to different cable companies and the methods they employ validating the cableCARDs or because I did not allow the unit to format the new drive.
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Old 06-09-2014, 09:44 PM   #1787
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Curious. I am on Charter. Now granted, I did not pop out my drive and let the Roamio reformat a new one as I was working on a 4TB upgrade, but when I went back from my 4TB to my original drive I had to re-pair the cableCARD to the unit because my Data ID changed (the other values remained the same) and my validation value was a ?. I was able to get all of my non premium channels and some of my premium channels with the card in the state. After I called Charter and had the cableCARD paired back up, my validation value was a v and I got all my premium channels. Not sure if our difference is due to different cable companies and the methods they employ validating the cableCARDs or because I did not allow the unit to format the new drive.
Did you remove the cable card from the TiVo at any time in your work?, and the 4Tb drive may have mess up the cable card pairing, as I just went from the original TiVo drive directly to a blank 3Tb drive and did not have to re-pair the cable card, with the Comcast special Cable card number pairing is no big deal anyways.
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Old 06-10-2014, 06:18 AM   #1788
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Originally Posted by jmbach View Post
When you updated the TiVo HD, you probably copied the drive to a new larger drive and expanded it. This preserved the cableCARD pairing. We currently do not have that option for the Roamio so you will lose the pairing information. This is true for the Motorola M-Cards. Not sure about Scientific Atlantic cards.
thanks for the thought, but no I just replaced/added a larger internal HD. It started out fresh and nothing but the OS (that Tivo loaded ) was on it. I don't think I had to re-pair it then, just worked.


by the way, Tivo still shows that I have the original small size HD when I log into my account or speak to them, so they did not get the info about the HD change from the machine
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Old 06-10-2014, 06:26 AM   #1789
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Any thoughts on this HD

I am planning to follow the good advice here and upgrade to the
WD AV-GP WD20EURX 2TB IntelliPower 64MB Cache SATA 6.0Gb/s 3.5" Internal Hard Drive. But while I was on Newegg looking at the drive they suggested a newer version made for 24/7.

WD Purple WD20PURX 2TB SATA 6.0Gb/s 3.5" Hard Drive
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...82E16822236661
Any thoughts on this as one?
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Old 06-10-2014, 07:28 AM   #1790
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Get the EURX, that's what Tivo installs. But it really doesn't matter.
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Old 06-10-2014, 02:38 PM   #1791
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Get the EURX, that's what Tivo installs. But it really doesn't matter.
ok, thanks
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Old 06-10-2014, 11:08 PM   #1792
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Originally Posted by DB_0673 View Post
I am planning to follow the good advice here and upgrade to the
WD AV-GP WD20EURX 2TB IntelliPower 64MB Cache SATA 6.0Gb/s 3.5" Internal Hard Drive. But while I was on Newegg looking at the drive they suggested a newer version made for 24/7.

WD Purple WD20PURX 2TB SATA 6.0Gb/s 3.5" Hard Drive
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...82E16822236661
Any thoughts on this as one?
Dan
http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb...4#post10127194
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Old 06-11-2014, 05:38 AM   #1793
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I am planning to follow the good advice here and upgrade to the
WD AV-GP WD20EURX 2TB IntelliPower 64MB Cache SATA 6.0Gb/s 3.5" Internal Hard Drive. But while I was on Newegg looking at the drive they suggested a newer version made for 24/7.

WD Purple WD20PURX 2TB SATA 6.0Gb/s 3.5" Hard Drive
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...82E16822236661
Any thoughts on this as one?
Dan
Quote:
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thanks for the link. I admit that I don't fully understand all the technical stuff and was glad to see you say "bad for Tivo users"

That's what I needed

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Old 06-11-2014, 01:15 PM   #1794
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thanks for the link. I admit that I don't fully understand all the technical stuff and was glad to see you say "bad for Tivo users"

That's what I needed

Dan
I can't truly say "Bad for TiVo users". I can say "untested and unproven for TiVo use", WD's specs not making it sound like it has anything extra to add to TiVos (due to the recording/playback methods TiVo uses for AV content), WD's marketing/specs making it sound like not an ideal single-drive solution, and the "new product factor".

If I had any inkling there was anything better about it, for TiVo uses, or use in a TiVo, I'd consider trying them, and consider asking others to give it a try.

I'd rather keep an eye on the reviews. WD has been getting a lot of black eyes in reviews lately, especially on DOAs, and non DOAs which fail soon after testing and installing...

If these drives seem to be faring better than this trend with the other models (WD Red NAS & WD AV-GP included), I might try one, verify it works properly in a TiVo, then consider passing that data along, so others can make the best informed decisions.

"New isn't always better". Sometime the best-case scenario/result is nothing gained, but nothing lost. Sometimes the worst-case is recommending a new product, then finding out it came with its very own new issues.
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Old 06-11-2014, 02:14 PM   #1795
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I can't truly say "Bad for TiVo users". I can say "untested and unproven for TiVo use", WD's specs not making it sound like it has anything extra to add to TiVos (due to the recording/playback methods TiVo uses for AV content), WD's marketing/specs making it sound like not an ideal single-drive solution, and the "new product factor".

If I had any inkling there was anything better about it, for TiVo uses, or use in a TiVo, I'd consider trying them, and consider asking others to give it a try.

I'd rather keep an eye on the reviews. WD has been getting a lot of black eyes in reviews lately, especially on DOAs, and non DOAs which fail soon after testing and installing...

If these drives seem to be faring better than this trend with the other models (WD Red NAS & WD AV-GP included), I might try one, verify it works properly in a TiVo, then consider passing that data along, so others can make the best informed decisions.

"New isn't always better". Sometime the best-case scenario/result is nothing gained, but nothing lost. Sometimes the worst-case is recommending a new product, then finding out it came with its very own new issues.
Again thanks,, I would never hold anyone to suggestions they make. I appreciate the info that knowledgeable users provide on the forums. The choice will still be mine and I am responsible for the outcomes. The forums give me a much better chance of "getting it right" than choosing in the blind.
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Old 06-12-2014, 09:47 AM   #1796
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3tb Hd

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Again thanks,, I would never hold anyone to suggestions they make. I appreciate the info that knowledgeable users provide on the forums. The choice will still be mine and I am responsible for the outcomes. The forums give me a much better chance of "getting it right" than choosing in the blind.
Dan
@Dan Skip the 2TB and go for the 3TB drive which the Roamio Pro ships with. This gets you another 150 hours of record time for an extra $25. Over 5 years that's an extra $5/yr. Will also help resell value.

Roamio Pro: Up to 450 HD / 3000 SD hours recording capacity (3TB)

Amazon has the Western Digital 3 TB WD AV-GP SATA III Intellipower 64 MB Cache Bulk/OEM AV Hard Drive WD30EURX for ~$125.
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Old 06-12-2014, 01:26 PM   #1797
DB_0673
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@Dan Skip the 2TB and go for the 3TB drive which the Roamio Pro ships with. This gets you another 150 hours of record time for an extra $25. Over 5 years that's an extra $5/yr. Will also help resell value.

Roamio Pro: Up to 450 HD / 3000 SD hours recording capacity (3TB)

Amazon has the Western Digital 3 TB WD AV-GP SATA III Intellipower 64 MB Cache Bulk/OEM AV Hard Drive WD30EURX for ~$125.
thanks, good idea
dan
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Old 06-14-2014, 05:13 PM   #1798
Impaqt
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Set up my new Roamio Plus yesterday, Unfortunately, my 3TB hard drive shipped to my work address instead of home so I could put the new HD in before I activated it.

Today I installed the Hard drive and ran back through all the setup.

Lost all my premium stations. I called Comcast and they tried re-pairing the card. didnt work. She just kept saying "Its Red" whatever that means...

her solution is to try swapping the cable card. so I guess I'll head over to a Comcast place on Monday and swap it out and see if that works.

BTW, Installed the Western Digital "RED" Nas drive. Located in the South Chicago Suburbs.
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Old 06-18-2014, 01:03 PM   #1799
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Hoping for some quick help. Planning on buying the WD30EURX from Amazon today. Description says no cables included. Will I need to order cables (and what kind)? My base Roamio currently has the stock 500gb Seagate drive. Thanks!
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Old 06-18-2014, 01:24 PM   #1800
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Hoping for some quick help. Planning on buying the WD30EURX from Amazon today. Description says no cables included. Will I need to order cables (and what kind)? My base Roamio currently has the stock 500gb Seagate drive. Thanks!

No
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