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Old 08-29-2013, 10:07 AM   #721
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Well, so far I have one person here, and several people in other forums with contradicting stories. Facts would be nice, or at least proof. Im not picking a side, I just note neither side provided anything other than "Im right".

Looking at it in a way that intellipark is not used, and if it does not ignore sector issues while writing video with the device telling it so, why do DVR manufacturers use pipeline drives and AV-GP drives? There has to be something there, I wouldn't think they were exactly the same as say a caviar green and these people are getting hustled by WD and Seagate. Both the Pipeline and AV-GP claim 24x7 reliability, but not sure what they mean.
There has to be some difference somewhere. But it could just be the warranty. Because WD would probably not knowingly warranty a non DVR drive used in a DVR.
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Old 08-29-2013, 10:13 AM   #722
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I finally got DvrBARS full images of a Basic before & after setup. Thanks PapaArt!

The drive does indeed appear to be 99% blank as shipped from the factory, but there are some non-zero sectors that I think are the result of some diagnostics either at Seagate or TiVo. For instance, the first sector that has any info at all is almost 8GB into the drive and it's just two repeating text strings - "WRW" and "UEST".

My analysis of the drive after setup is going well, but I DESPERATELY need "after" images for 1TB, 2TB & 3TB drives. From what I'm seeing so far it's bizarre and familiar at the same time but I don't want to post my WAGs until I can remove more of the question marks in my notes.

The Full "after" backup of the 500GB Basic drive was only 1.75GB and it zipped down to 700MB. It's really easy to put it in your public Dropbox folder and send me a PM with a link.
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Old 08-29-2013, 10:19 AM   #723
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How long does it take the backup to run?

I put a 3TB into my Plus, I'd be willing to pull it if the backup doesn't take an obscene amount of time.

I can also give you a "before" on the stock 1 TB drive.
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Old 08-29-2013, 10:51 AM   #724
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I upgraded my Roamio Basic with a 3Tb WD Red drive last night. Like others have said, getting the cover off was the hardest part.
The Red drive booted up fine - I didn't disable intellipark, or do anything else with the drive. I plan to test warm and cold reboots to see if there are any issues, and will report back when I do.
Once the TiVo was working, I had all 4 tuners record, and then began transferring shows from my old TiVo HD (at my house wireless is SLOW. Once the Roamio is all set up, it'll get connected to ethernet.) I put my ear next to the vent on the side that holds the drive, and all I could hear was a hum - either the drive or the fan. I couldn't hear any seeking/reading/writing noise at all, so the Red drive is more than quiet enough for me Definitely quieter than the 2 year old 2Tb AV-GP drive in the TiVoHD (though I can only hear that one when my ear is inches away from that TiVo.)

Anyway, so far so good. I'd like to be able to fill the drive up and report back, but with 450 hours of space, I really don't see that happening any time soon, if at all.

If anybody has questions about my drive in particular, I'll keep tabs on this thread and try to respond quickly.
Thanks to all who've posted here already - certainly made my upgrade easier.
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Old 08-29-2013, 11:09 AM   #725
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How long does it take the backup to run?

I put a 3TB into my Plus, I'd be willing to pull it if the backup doesn't take an obscene amount of time.

I can also give you a "before" on the stock 1 TB drive.
Since Full backups read the entire disk it really depends on the PC and the connection. USB2 would suck. My PC's chipset maxes out at just under 2Gb/s, so even USB3 or direct SATA connections take about 10 hours per TB.

If your PC supports true 6Gb/s a direct SATA, eSATA or USB3 connection should run the entire 3TB drive in about 8-9 hours. If you have already run Guided Setup or made any recordings the final file size would probably be unwieldy at best.

I'd be interested in the raw 1TB image too, just to see if what I think are test patterns come from TiVo or the drive manufacturer. The 500GB raw image was only 800MB and zipped down to 4MB. You could email it...
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Old 08-29-2013, 11:10 AM   #726
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Originally Posted by GoHokies! View Post
How long does it take the backup to run?

I put a 3TB into my Plus, I'd be willing to pull it if the backup doesn't take an obscene amount of time.

I can also give you a "before" on the stock 1 TB drive.
When I did the full back up on the 500 Mb drive it took 2+ hours using USB connected enclosure.

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Old 08-29-2013, 11:10 AM   #727
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I finally got DvrBARS full images of a Basic before & after setup. Thanks PapaArt!

The drive does indeed appear to be 99% blank as shipped from the factory, but there are some non-zero sectors that I think are the result of some diagnostics either at Seagate or TiVo. For instance, the first sector that has any info at all is almost 8GB into the drive and it's just two repeating text strings - "WRW" and "UEST".

My analysis of the drive after setup is going well, but I DESPERATELY need "after" images for 1TB, 2TB & 3TB drives. From what I'm seeing so far it's bizarre and familiar at the same time but I don't want to post my WAGs until I can remove more of the question marks in my notes.

The Full "after" backup of the 500GB Basic drive was only 1.75GB and it zipped down to 700MB. It's really easy to put it in your public Dropbox folder and send me a PM with a link.
Non of the tools recognize the new format (and I tried them all) as a TiVo signature, the only reason to use any tools on the Roamio would be to expand a drive from say 1Tb to say 3Tb and not have any loss of recordings, settings etc. If your drive goes south you can just put in another drive (up to 3Tb for now) and the Roamio will format and set up the drive as a new TiVo.
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Old 08-29-2013, 11:22 AM   #728
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Non of the tools recognize the new format (and I tried them all) as a TiVo signature, the only reason to use any tools on the Roamio would be to expand a drive from say 1Tb to say 3Tb and not have any loss of recordings, settings etc. If your drive goes south you can just put in another drive (up to 3Tb for now) and the Roamio will format and set up the drive as a new TiVo.
True, but I hope to have a new version of DvrBARS out in a few weeks that adds Roamio support. Backup and expansion are pretty much things of the past with this new line as long as you're willing to start over from scratch, but if I can figure out a way to do it that keeps your existing stuff it might be useful to some people.
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Old 08-29-2013, 11:40 AM   #729
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There has to be some difference somewhere. But it could just be the warranty. Because WD would probably not knowingly warranty a non DVR drive used in a DVR.
The only read difference I can see on the WD site between a Caviar Green 2TB and an AV-Gp 2TB is:

AV-GP is rated 10 degrees celsius higher
(green is 32 degrees to 140F and av-gp is 32 to 158)
AV-GP has an xtra year warranty
AV-GP is slightly more quiet
Green is 6GB/s max and AV-GP is 3
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Old 08-29-2013, 12:08 PM   #730
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True, but I hope to have a new version of DvrBARS out in a few weeks that adds Roamio support. Backup and expansion are pretty much things of the past with this new line as long as you're willing to start over from scratch, but if I can figure out a way to do it that keeps your existing stuff it might be useful to some people.
I could definitely see it being useful to copy from one drive to another to expand. Say you bought the Plus and the 3TB drives dropped to $75 and you decided to upgrade. If you could copy over the recordings to the new drive and just plug and play it would be nice.

Of course I don't know if anyone has tested the replacement scenario. Take the initial drive, run through guided setup, record a couple of shows both copy once and copy freely, and then pull the drive. Replace with an upgrade and repeat the process. Then pull that drive and put the original drive back in. Are the shows still there or does it format everytime?

I think we need a Wiki or Google Docs on everything that has been tested and by who, how many, and which TiVo. This thread is so long and quick it is tough to keep track.
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Old 08-29-2013, 01:32 PM   #731
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I could definitely see it being useful to copy from one drive to another to expand. Say you bought the Plus and the 3TB drives dropped to $75 and you decided to upgrade. If you could copy over the recordings to the new drive and just plug and play it would be nice.

Of course I don't know if anyone has tested the replacement scenario. Take the initial drive, run through guided setup, record a couple of shows both copy once and copy freely, and then pull the drive. Replace with an upgrade and repeat the process. Then pull that drive and put the original drive back in. Are the shows still there or does it format everytime?

I think we need a Wiki or Google Docs on everything that has been tested and by who, how many, and which TiVo. This thread is so long and quick it is tough to keep track.
The recordings, Guide Data, Settings etc should still be there unless it reformats the drive (which I doubt but can't swear to). CableCARD pairing is still up in the air. It's all still guesswork and I like your Wiki suggestion.
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Old 08-29-2013, 02:17 PM   #732
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This is a MYTH, that keeps getting passed around. TiVo doesn't use the ATA (AV) streaming extensions command set, so ALL data is written as any old data, without the special AV features and without different error handling. AV drives ONLY run in AV mode when the host and software enable it. Without being enabled, the drive uses the VERY SAME error handling techniques as a non-AV drive.

It's also a MYTH that you shouldn't use AV drives in a computer. They behave them same as a non-AV drive, unless it's a media center PC, and the software and hardware support, and enable the AV (ATA) streaming extensions. Then they are actually more desirable for PC use.
I wouldn't say an AV drive in AV mode is an unqualified benefit for a media center PC.

I still wouldn't want to OS running from a drive with error recovery suppressed. But yes, AV mode would be great if you were only using the AV drive for media and had a separate boot drive (small harddrive, SSD, etc).
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Old 08-29-2013, 02:55 PM   #733
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I wouldn't say an AV drive in AV mode is an unqualified benefit for a media center PC.

I still wouldn't want to OS running from a drive with error recovery suppressed. But yes, AV mode would be great if you were only using the AV drive for media and had a separate boot drive (small harddrive, SSD, etc).
It's not an entire "all or none" situation. ONLY the AV data gets written in streaming mode, if supported, and enabled. As I've said in other posts, even if TiVo ever did start using it, the databases would still be written as data, not as an AV stream. So, there would still be both error-handling algorithms in use.

Your post would lead one to believe the entire drive gets one toggle, and changes modes. That's not how it works. Perhaps that's why TiVo hasn't used it, so far. It would require extra work to implement, because it's not just a whole-drive mode toggle.
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Old 08-29-2013, 03:18 PM   #734
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Just curious as to how you know what TiVo is using in the Roamio Hard drive system, the file system is different than all previous TiVos, as non of our copy tool can even see a Roamio basic TiVo drive even after the software is on the drive. Not saying your incorrect.
Nobody knows, except TiVo, and maybe Weaknees.

I was just reflex-stopping the MYTH that just because a drive is AV-rated, it AUTOMATICALLY uses different error correction, all on it's own. It's not true!

I never said that the Roamio is incapable of taking advantage of the feature set. I was talking strictly hard drive, and KNOWN TiVo facts.

We are in the land of the unknown here. I felt the need to stop a myth, before it took root, and grew more seedlings.
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Old 08-29-2013, 03:21 PM   #735
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I still havent seen any proof either way, yet you keep saying its a MYTH because you said so.

Im not challenging you, but documentation, or a link would be nice. I'd like to read it and learn a little. You saying others are wrong because you said so doesnt present much.

If it is a MYTH, it gets thrown around a lot and it'd be nice to be able to correct the posts with actual data, otherwise I would just have to say "because a guy on tivocommunity.com said so".
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Old 08-29-2013, 03:26 PM   #736
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so i should be getting my 3TB drive today. But i may have to hold off and swapping it out as i noticed last night 2 of my tuners had no audio. I rebooted this morning before work but haven't been able to test it out. I went to watch Futurama last night and it recorded with no audio. Very annoying.
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Old 08-29-2013, 03:38 PM   #737
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I could definitely see it being useful to copy from one drive to another to expand. Say you bought the Plus and the 3TB drives dropped to $75 and you decided to upgrade. If you could copy over the recordings to the new drive and just plug and play it would be nice.

Of course I don't know if anyone has tested the replacement scenario. Take the initial drive, run through guided setup, record a couple of shows both copy once and copy freely, and then pull the drive. Replace with an upgrade and repeat the process. Then pull that drive and put the original drive back in. Are the shows still there or does it format everytime?

I think we need a Wiki or Google Docs on everything that has been tested and by who, how many, and which TiVo. This thread is so long and quick it is tough to keep track.
Your idea works great as I did that, BUT you have a loss of the cable card pairing and can't get it back even if you put the original disk back in, so when you are finished you still have to call Comcast and re-pair the card, this is for Comcast in Hartford CT YMMV. I have not tried putting a drive from one Roamio into another, but will next week when I get the 2nd Roamio Plus.
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Old 08-29-2013, 03:42 PM   #738
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I still havent seen any proof either way, yet you keep saying its a MYTH because you said so.

Im not challenging you, but documentation, or a link would be nice. I'd like to read it and learn a little. You saying others are wrong because you said so doesnt present much.

If it is a MYTH, it gets thrown around a lot and it'd be nice to be able to correct the posts with actual data, otherwise I would just have to say "because a guy on tivocommunity.com said so".
Go do your own damn research, and find facts, that aren't linked to somebody in the business of making people believe they need an AV rated drive, just because the device the drive goes into handles AV.

It took me months to be sure I had my ducks in a row. I didn't make a list of every source that I used, to find UNBIASED data on the matter.

The myths about AV drives lead all the way back to the first HDD FAQ on these very forums. Weaknees was the source of what people thought to be fact, and posted here, without knowing they were passing along propaganda, provided by an UPGRADE DRIVE SELLER.
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Old 08-29-2013, 03:44 PM   #739
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Your idea works great as I did that, BUT you have a loss of the cable card pairing and can't get it back even if you put the original disk back in, so when you are finished you still have to call Comcast and re-pair the card, this is for Comcast in Hartford CT YMMV. I have not tried putting a drive from one Roamio into another, but will next week when I get the 2nd Roamio Plus.
True, but if a drive was giving you signs it was going to fail you could then hopefully copy those recordings to a new drive and expand the space at the same time. Either way you would need to pair the CC again.

FiOS makes it fairly easy since the online chat support on their website can do it from what Ben @EngadgetHD has said.
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Old 08-29-2013, 03:47 PM   #740
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Go do your own damn research, and find facts, that aren't linked to somebody in the business of making people believe they need an AV rated drive, just because the device the drive goes into handles AV.

It took me months to be sure I had my ducks in a row. I didn't make a list of every source that I used, to find UNBIASED data on the matter.

The myths about AV drives lead all the way back to the first HDD FAQ on these very forums. Weaknees was the source of what people thought to be fact, and posted here, without knowing they were passing along propaganda, provided by an UPGRADE DRIVE SELLER.
About the reaction I expected. "Cause I said so". Glad to see a forum is about learning...

I don't know enough technically about HDD's to really start, but I guess Google will be at least a better source than you since it wont be an ass about the whole thing. Hopefully next time you pose a question to someone in a field you are not experienced, you get the same answer.
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Old 08-29-2013, 03:51 PM   #741
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True, but I hope to have a new version of DvrBARS out in a few weeks that adds Roamio support. Backup and expansion are pretty much things of the past with this new line as long as you're willing to start over from scratch, but if I can figure out a way to do it that keeps your existing stuff it might be useful to some people.
If you can fix the software to allow the expansion of a drive that would very useful, as then, in the future, if I wanted to upgrade my 2Tb Plus to a 3Tb Plus I would not have to start over.
I think TiVo hard drive design is for TiVos benefit to give the fastest response and save money in production, so now the system can just have a hard drive go in without any preformatting, that will save some money, and the amount of money TiVo will not get because of people putting in their own hard drive and having to lose the TiVo warranty, I think is small. 99% of TiVos that do go bad it's the hard drive, now on the Roamio all TiVo has to do is drop in another hard drive and they have a refurb TiVo to sell.
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Old 08-29-2013, 03:52 PM   #742
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About the reaction I expected. "Cause I said so".
No, I said "GO DO YOUR OWN DAMN RESEARCH!".

If you want to base your decisions on myths, BE MY GUEST!

There's obviously no way I can prove anything to you. You need to prove it to yourself. So, why don't you get to it, and leave me the hell alone.
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Old 08-29-2013, 03:53 PM   #743
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No, I said "GO DO YOUR OWN DAMN RESEARCH!".

If you want to base your decisions on myths, BE MY GUEST!

There's obviously no way I can prove anything to you. You need to prove it to yourself. So, why don't you get to it, and leave me the hell alone.
All I asked was for a pointer in the right direction, and you were an ass. Plain and simple. Dont worry though, i do know how to use the ignore button.
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Old 08-29-2013, 04:02 PM   #744
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Glad to see a forum is about learning...

I don't know enough technically about HDD's to really start, but I guess Google will be at least a better source than you since it wont be an ass about the whole thing. Hopefully next time you pose a question to someone in a field you are not experienced, you get the same answer.
In response to what you attached to your post (quoted above) in an EDIT, before it could show up as one:

Yep, Google's a GREAT way to find myths, that have been repeated over, and over, and over, and over, and over, again, and again, and again...

If it were that easy, it wouldn't have taken me months to be sure about what I say.

This isn't the thread for this. There's at least a dozen better-suited threads.
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Old 08-29-2013, 04:17 PM   #745
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In response to what you attached to your post (quoted above) in an EDIT, before it could show up as one:

Yep, Google's a GREAT way to find myths, that have been repeated over, and over, and over, and over, and over, again, and again, and again...

If it were that easy, it wouldn't have taken me months to be sure about what I say.

This isn't the thread for this. There's at least a dozen better-suited threads.
This forum has a number of different options

AV drives vs other hard drives

Using a UPS on all TiVos, and/or all electronics

Turning off a TiVo for 12 hours a day, does the hard drive last longer

and I am sure there are more, each to their own opinion and the rest of us can do as we see fit.
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Old 08-29-2013, 04:22 PM   #746
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My apologies to the rest of you reading this thread.

If you've been following it from the start, or took the time to read through all this, you'd see that I don't claim to know it all.

I just didn't want a careless insertion, of a vaguely recalled myth, to cloud the fact-finding mission we are on.

Truth be told, it would take days for me just to try and re-find all the sources for all the facts on AV drives. There's a giant sea of fiction, and even the drive makers are guilty of pushing for their use, in applications that don't necessarily need them. It's business as usual, folks.

With that over, back to ROAMIO drive upgrades, and what people are finding, as they bravely pioneer ahead...
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Old 08-29-2013, 04:26 PM   #747
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Alright guys...cool it.
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Old 08-29-2013, 04:27 PM   #748
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My apologies to the rest of you reading this thread.
I joined this forum about a week ago. This is the second time you've had to apologize. Apologies are good, not making rude, insulting and condescending posts in the first place is better.
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Old 08-29-2013, 04:31 PM   #749
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I joined this forum about a week ago. This is the second time you've had to apologize. Apologies are good, not making rude, insulting and condescending posts in the first place is better.
True. Welcome to TCF. I'm sure the longer you are here, the more it will stand out that there's plenty of condescension and insulting going on, from plenty of people, who will never once apologize for it.
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Old 08-29-2013, 04:33 PM   #750
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Does anyone know if CableCard pairing information survives the installation of a new hard drive? Or does the host ID change when the new drive is configured?

In other words, should I wait for my new hard drive before making the CableCard pairing call? The call is sufficiently unpleasant that I don't want to make it more than once.
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