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Old 08-20-2013, 09:08 AM   #121
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Grakthis View Post
my TiVo is always on. I do not want it to turn my TV on when my TiVo is on.

It would be minorly nice if when I pushed the TiVo button it automatically changed inputs to the TiVo. But how many TVs support that? My Chromecast is on a TV made in 2010 and it doesn't support input changing over HDMI-CEC.

The only CEC control I could see being useful between the TiVo and Xbox One would be the Xbox One checking the channel and changing the channel of the TiVo, and that would require a TiVo and MS partnership, and I don't think MS seems interested in that.
The biggest downside to CEC is the lack of configuration. This is in the implementation, though, so TiVo could provide settings. And we both know that the meaning of "on" to a DVR isn't the same as other devices.

My 2008 TV supports changing to one input via CEC, I suspect yours does to, but something is leading you to believe otherwise. I haven't played with the Chromecast, but of course CEC isn't the end all be all. I'm just saying I'd rather have the choice to disable it, then not have it at all.

Standard CEC does support tuner control, so I believe your one useful use case is possible.
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Old 08-20-2013, 09:11 AM   #122
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Availability

Just purchased the Plus with MSD. Any insight as to when they will ship? I was looking at upgrading to the Genie and the free Sunday Ticket. Tempting but not a Tivo.
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Old 08-20-2013, 09:16 AM   #123
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Here are my chat answers, just to help someone in the future:

Me: I assume it can handle the 1TB DVR Expander external drive to expand storage?
Tivo: Correct.

Me: Is it like previous models where part of the show is stored on the internal drive and part on the external, so if you lose one drive you lose all the shows? They are not seperate from each other?
Tivo: At the moment it is like that. Although I keep placing requests to change that.

Me: On my S3 and Premiere I used Amazon VOD quite often for tv shows. Those models would actually download the entire HD show as a file from Amazon and put them in your playlist. This is important to me because of slow internet speeds. Does the Roamio actually download the HD Amazon purchase as a file, or does it force you to stream the tv show/movie? I used to set up series pass's with Amazon and the new episode would auto download to the S3 and S4 after midnight when it became available on Amazon.
Tivo: It would still download the show or movie completely. We could not stream from Amazon yet, but hopefully someday.
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Old 08-20-2013, 09:17 AM   #124
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And no component outs. My current OTA premiere is hooked up to 2 TV's this way.
it has a break out cable support. you will have to buy the extra cable to get analog outs.
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Old 08-20-2013, 09:21 AM   #125
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Old 08-20-2013, 09:21 AM   #126
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Please check my math here vs. a Comcast DVR (am not sure if they currently have or plan to have a comparable whole home solution) :

Roamio Plus + Lifetime MSD = 798
Comcast DVR = ~$15/mos + Outlet charge = $5 * 1 =$5/mos
Payback period for Roamio PLus = 798/15/12 = 53.3 Months = 4.4 years?

If you throw in Mini's for say 3 additional rooms $6 monthly charge (without lifetime MSD):
Mini's = 90*3 = 270 + 6*53 = $588
Extra Comcast DVR boxes = $15/mos *3 = $45/mos + Outlet charge = $5 * 3 =$15/mos

Total over 53 months:
Roamio Plus + 3 Mini's = (798+588)/53 = ~$26/mos.
vs.
Comcast 4 DVR solution:
$20*4 = $80/mos

Last edited by NoVa : 08-20-2013 at 09:33 AM.
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Old 08-20-2013, 09:27 AM   #127
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Any pics of the insides?
Verification of t he rumored 2.5" drive in the Base model?
Thanks!
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Old 08-20-2013, 09:27 AM   #128
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NoVa View Post
Please check my math here vs. a Comcast DVR :

Roamio Plus + Lifetime MSD = 798
Comcast DVR = ~$15/mos
Payback period for Roamio PLus = 798/15/12 = 53.3 Months = 4.4 years?
But the Comcast DVR is not in the same league right? Not even their X1 platform?
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Old 08-20-2013, 09:29 AM   #129
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But the Comcast DVR is not in the same league right? Not even their X1 platform?
I've updated my math to state my "unknowns" about the Comcast DVR.
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Old 08-20-2013, 09:30 AM   #130
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To bad the 1/2 hour buffers for each tuner aren't solid state. Would give the drive the ability to take a break.
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Old 08-20-2013, 09:30 AM   #131
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NoVa View Post
Please check my math here vs. a Comcast DVR (am not sure if they currently have or plan to have a comparable whole home solution) :

Roamio Plus + Lifetime MSD = 798
Comcast DVR = ~$15/mos
Payback period for Roamio PLus = 798/15/12 = 53.3 Months = 4.4 years?

If you throw in Mini's for say 3 additional rooms without lifetime MSD:
Mini's = 90*3 = 270+6*53 = $588
Extra Comcast DVR boxes = $15/mos *3 = $45/mos

Total over 53 months:
Roamio Plus + 3 Mini's = (798+588)/53 = ~$26/mos.
vs.
Comcast 4 DVR solution:
$15*4 = $60/mos
Don't forget resale. Your math is like comparing a lease vs owning a car...though I think the TiVo holds its resale value more. I'd venture you'll be able to get roughly 50% of your investment back if you decide to sell within the next 3-4 years.
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Old 08-20-2013, 09:31 AM   #132
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as an owner of Tivo Premiere XL and another Premiere both with lifetime, I'm trying to find reasons this is worth $700-800 to me (per box).

6 tuners is nice but I'll never have that many things recording at once. I use wired moca because that's best for transfer. Won't use Tivo Stream functionality.

Otherwise seems like a faster Premiere. Even the interface looks the same. This doesn't seem like the upgrade we were hoping for that was drastically improved and exciting.
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Old 08-20-2013, 09:33 AM   #133
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Originally Posted by NoVa View Post
Please check my math here vs. a Comcast DVR (am not sure if they currently have or plan to have a comparable whole home solution) :

Roamio Plus + Lifetime MSD = 798
Comcast DVR = ~$15/mos
Payback period for Roamio PLus = 798/15/12 = 53.3 Months = 4.4 years?
also, look at the life of the Premiere from launch until Roamio. 3.5 years. So, you don't even really catch up until a year after the product is obsolete.

I don't think I'll be doing lifetime again. Because if you're selling a box, but then buying a box, it's still a wash.
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Old 08-20-2013, 09:34 AM   #134
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Originally Posted by NoVa View Post
Please check my math here vs. a Comcast DVR :

Roamio Plus + Lifetime MSD = 798
Comcast DVR = ~$15/mos
Payback period for Roamio PLus = 798/15/12 = 53.3 Months = 4.4 years?
TVM is going to change that math. Paying $15 in 2 years is worth less than $15 today. It's worth more like $13-$14. But that doesn't make a HUGE difference. Probably a month or two longer on the break even. Figure your break even is more like 54-55 months.

Also, factor in the cable card rental. The TiVo is 798 + 2.99 (or whatever the CC costs you) per month and the Comcast includes the CC in the $15 (I assume).

So that's going to add more months. Since the CC cost can be assumed to be a fixed cost in both options, you can just drop it from both and say the cable box is ~$12 per month.

You know, i'll just do the math for you.

Assuming the cable company DVR is $12 more per month than the TiVo, and assuming you could make 5% return on the stock market, a $12 per month payment is worth $796 after 78 months, which is 6.5 years.

What that means is, you could go buy an annuity at 5% for 796 dollars and pay for the difference in the two DVRs for 6.5 years.

Realistically, you're not getting an annuity for 5% in this market, but 5% is historically a good discount rate for the stock market. So, imagine instead you invested 796 dollars in the stock market and each month cashed in $12 to pay for the DVR if that makes more sense to you.

So, in summary, if you're trying to cost justify a TiVo + Lifetime vs a cable company DVR, it's not going to work. You really have to justify the TiVo on the fact that it's a better product.
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Old 08-20-2013, 09:34 AM   #135
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Don't forget resale. Your math is like comparing a lease vs owning a car...though I think the TiVo holds its resale value more. I'd venture you'll be able to get roughly 50% of your investment back if you decide to sell within the next 3-4 years.
Agree that's how I was thinking about it too.
Updated to include the extra Comcast drop charges too.

So now ~ for a 4 TV home per month:
Comcast: $80 vs Romio+: $26
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Old 08-20-2013, 09:35 AM   #136
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Old 08-20-2013, 09:36 AM   #137
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Originally Posted by NoVa View Post
Please check my math here vs. a Comcast DVR :

Roamio Plus + Lifetime MSD = 798
Comcast DVR = ~$15/mos
Payback period for Roamio PLus = 798/15/12 = 53.3 Months = 4.4 years?
The Roamio Plus isn't designed to replace 1 cable DVR, it is designed to be part of a whole home system with several minis serving additional TVs.

If all you are doing is replace 1 cable DVR on 1TV the correct model is the base one which for anyone eligible for MSD will cost $600 with lifetime. So payback is $600/15/12 which is 40 months or 3.4 years. Plus I am guessing the new TiVo DVR is significantly superior to what Comcast is giving you, including having more tuners. As a side note in my area a TWC DVR costs allot more than $15/mo, the last time I looked I think it was $20/mo more that just renting a cable card so payback would be in the 30 month zone.
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Old 08-20-2013, 09:38 AM   #138
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Oh, yeah, resale makes a huge difference. For example, my S3 without lifetime (even with an upgraded HD) would ebay for like $50 if I am lucky. If I had lifetime on it, it would ebay for like 300 (probably). So, that does make the equation more complicated, due to residual value.

If you assume the lifetime maintains $300 in value, your break even at 5% is closer to 45 months.

So, if your TiVo survives 3.75 years and has a resale value of $300 AND you sell it, you break even vs a cable company DVR at that point.
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Old 08-20-2013, 09:44 AM   #139
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So, let's say you replace 3 CC DVRs with a lifetime Tivo (800) + 2 minis (lifetime at 150 each).

That's 1100 up front cost that you have to make up, but you're saving (15 + 15 + 15 - 3 for the TiVo cable card) $42 per month.

You've made that back in about 28 months. That's a big savings.

Last edited by Grakthis : 08-20-2013 at 09:55 AM.
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Old 08-20-2013, 09:48 AM   #140
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TVM is going to change that math. Paying $15 in 2 years is worth less than $15 today. It's worth more like $13-$14. But that doesn't make a HUGE difference. Probably a month or two longer on the break even. Figure your break even is more like 54-55 months.

Also, factor in the cable card rental. The TiVo is 798 + 2.99 (or whatever the CC costs you) per month and the Comcast includes the CC in the $15 (I assume).

So that's going to add more months. Since the CC cost can be assumed to be a fixed cost in both options, you can just drop it from both and say the cable box is ~$12 per month.

You know, i'll just do the math for you.

Assuming the cable company DVR is $12 more per month than the TiVo, and assuming you could make 5% return on the stock market, a $12 per month payment is worth $796 after 78 months, which is 6.5 years.

What that means is, you could go buy an annuity at 5% for 796 dollars and pay for the difference in the two DVRs for 6.5 years.

Realistically, you're not getting an annuity for 5% in this market, but 5% is historically a good discount rate for the stock market. So, imagine instead you invested 796 dollars in the stock market and each month cashed in $12 to pay for the DVR if that makes more sense to you.

So, in summary, if you're trying to cost justify a TiVo + Lifetime vs a cable company DVR, it's not going to work. You really have to justify the TiVo on the fact that it's a better product.
I purposely left out the alternative investment ROI option because realistically, how many of us are going to do that? LOL!

That said, my estimates were back of the envelope & to not only put down in black & white what potential costs/benefits are vs. a Comcast setup & what the totals are vs. a wired professional installed A/V setup with dedicated splitters & switches (haven't done this yet but preliminarily it is >$2K but pretty much future proof).
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Old 08-20-2013, 09:48 AM   #141
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So 4 years from now, will Tivo introduce a next generation of DVRs?

And when they do, what will be the residual value of a Plus with Lifetime?
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Old 08-20-2013, 09:51 AM   #142
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You guys are really bad at finance... your numbers are way short.

Back in the day when Lifetime was $200 it was virtually always financially correct to buy lifetime service.

These days, with the hardware being so cheap, the failure rate of HDs being what it is, the risk of obsolescence due to the changing technology landscape, and the existence of CC DVRs, it's virtually never going to be worth it to buy lifetime service anymore.

The chances of turning a net profit on a lifetime service are just incredibly low anymore. TiVo's finance guys are a lot smarter than we are and they spend a lot of time on this math. They know that only the most incredibly loyal and stingy customers will profit on the lifetime. They know this because if the average customer profited from a lifetime, they would raise the price on the lifetime until this wasn't true, because that's how economics works.
Easy now LOL! we're just TV watchers here.

Anyhow, I think we may have to move this to a TiVo economics thread of its own.

I'll ask the mods. That way we don't derail the Roamio's facts.
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Old 08-20-2013, 09:53 AM   #143
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Comcast DVR = ~$15/mos + Outlet charge = $5 * 1 =$5/mos
You left out the money you'll have to pay a therapist for treatment if you are forced to use a Comcast DVR.

I know I didn't even care what the TiVo cost when I got disgusted with Comcast and switched (and I'm even disgusted with TiVo as well, but not enough to ever go back to Comcast :-).
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Old 08-20-2013, 09:55 AM   #144
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You guys are really bad at finance... your numbers are way short.

Back in the day when Lifetime was $200 it was virtually always financially correct to buy lifetime service.

These days, with the hardware being so cheap, the failure rate of HDs being what it is, the risk of obsolescence due to the changing technology landscape, and the existence of CC DVRs, it's virtually never going to be worth it to buy lifetime service anymore.

The chances of turning a net profit on a lifetime service are just incredibly low anymore. TiVo's finance guys are a lot smarter than we are and they spend a lot of time on this math. They know that only the most incredibly loyal and stingy customers will profit on the lifetime. They know this because if the average customer profited from a lifetime, they would raise the price on the lifetime until this wasn't true, because that's how economics works.
^ this. $200 = worth it. $400 = give me a break.
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Old 08-20-2013, 09:56 AM   #145
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I'm very disappointed that the 4-tuner model no longer supports antenna alongside cable like previous models did - it's now either/or and only has one RF input. On my S3 i record all my local stations over the roof antenna (PQ is better than cable version and i never miss a recording due to TA malfunctions), and i only use the CableCard tuner for the cable channels.
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Old 08-20-2013, 09:59 AM   #146
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I have a question about the Roamio (basic, with OTA support) I didn't see answered yet:

Can I have an antenna AND digital cable (not using cable card, just the unencrypted channels) plugged into the same box?

My Tivo Series 3 has two separate inputs (one for cable, on for antenna), but the Roamio seems to have only one.

Tivo HD back panel:
Highslide JS

Roamio back panel:
Highslide JS
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Old 08-20-2013, 09:59 AM   #147
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I didn't expect it (SDV tuning failures) would change, but hope springs eternal. I and others here do think TiVo has some control over how their software handles the SDV tuning failures, e.g., by adjusting timeouts and/or adding tuning retries. The details have been discussed in several other threads over the past few years. I don't want to clutter up this thread with them. The jist of it is that one or two manual re-tunes (chan up/down) will tune a channel successfully after an SDV tuning failure (but that doesn't help for recording failures).


I'm very interested in hearing any experiences with cable/TA and the new device.

Quote:
Originally Posted by d_scott
as an owner of Tivo Premiere XL and another Premiere both with lifetime, I'm trying to find reasons this is worth $700-800 to me (per box).

6 tuners is nice but I'll never have that many things recording at once. I use wired moca because that's best for transfer. Won't use Tivo Stream functionality.

Otherwise seems like a faster Premiere. Even the interface looks the same. This doesn't seem like the upgrade we were hoping for that was drastically improved and exciting.
my situation is similar but not exact- regardless the upshot is the same, i don't see the 'killer app' yet.

Streaming outside the house would be close
help with the TA issue would be killer

i already have enough storage & tuners <see sig>
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Old 08-20-2013, 10:01 AM   #148
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I purposely left out the alternative investment ROI option because realistically, how many of us are going to do that? LOL!

That said, my estimates were back of the envelope & to not only put down in black & white what potential costs/benefits are vs. a Comcast setup & what the totals are vs. a wired professional installed A/V setup with dedicated splitters & switches (haven't done this yet but preliminarily it is >$2K but pretty much future proof).
*nods*

I still try to factor it in because, in my mind, I assume the 5% opportunity cost represents "my enjoyment from other things I could do with this money."

for example, a TiVo without lifetime + an Xbox One vs a TiVo with lifetime. The 5% represents my enjoyment of the Xbox One.

So, it's kinda shorthand for me for "other opportunity costs" even if I would never actually buy an annuity or invest in the stock market.
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Old 08-20-2013, 10:02 AM   #149
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So 4 years from now, will Tivo introduce a next generation of DVRs?

And when they do, what will be the residual value of a Plus with Lifetime?
What is the value of a Premiere XL + Lifetime now?
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Old 08-20-2013, 10:03 AM   #150
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