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Old 02-08-2013, 12:55 PM   #1
BigJimOutlaw
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Tivo Requests FCC Waiver: New Devices!

http://apps.fcc.gov/ecfs/comment/view?id=6017161971

In a nutshell, they want to remove analog for the next generation, top to bottom. Unlike how they specifically named the Elite for the waiver last time, this time they are not indicating exactly what the devices are, but rather requesting a waiver for "upcoming DVR models."

They are retaining the Premiere brand and will have one model with OTA.

No release timeline is given.


===

Some snippets....

"In 2011, the Commission granted TiVo a waiver of the digital cable ready certification ... to permit TiVo to bring all-digital cable-only DVRs to the retail market for the first time. This petition requests an extension of that waiver to several new all-digital cable only devices and a slight extension of that waiver to cover devices that permit reception of digital broadcast ("DTV") signals."

"TiVo ... has two years of consumer data showing that its audience no longer needs or wants analog tuning functionality in TiVo DVRs. Following the Commission's previous waiver, TiVo ... found that only 0.2% of customers commented about the absence of analog tuning capability and only 0.05% of customers ceased subscribing to TiVo service as a result. TiVo's technologically savvy customer base simply no longer has any use for analog television service and saddling them with the cost ($100 to $150 per device) of analog equipment they do not need and will never use serves no rational policy goal."

" TiVo Inc. ... hereby petitions the Media Bureau for waiver. ... The waiver would permit TiVo to manufacture and sell new models of its innovative digital video recorders ("DVRs") without including vestigial analog tuners that increase costs and power consumption without providing any useful functionality for consumers."

"The devices subject to the requested waivers are part of the next generation of TiVo's all-digital "Premiere" line, for which the Commission previously granted TiVo waivers..."

"One model of TiVo' s new all-digital DVRs would include ATSC over-the-air reception capability"

"... the costs of including now unnecessary analog functionality in TiVo DVRs have only increased. TiVo's base cost is approximately $10 for each analog tuner included in each device... When design and production costs are factored in, including this analog functionality increases the retail price of each device by between $100 and $150 depending on the model."

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Old 02-08-2013, 01:06 PM   #2
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Tivo still plans to provide support for the OTA cord cutters:

One model of TiVo' s new all-digital DVRs would include ATSC over-the-air reception capability; this model, therefore, requires waiver of both the DCR Rules and Section 15.117(b)'s dual analog/digital tuner requirement.

No indication of number of tuners, but OTA support will be maintained.
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Old 02-08-2013, 01:20 PM   #3
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Good to hear they're not abandoning ATSC. Analog can go as far as I'm concerned.

Interesting accounting, $10 becomes $150.
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Old 02-08-2013, 01:28 PM   #4
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We still have some analog only stations here. However I'm more mad at Charter for not simulcasting them, or better yet providing HD versions, then I am at TiVo for dumping analog support. It's about time analog went away completely.
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Old 02-08-2013, 01:30 PM   #5
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Apparently there is a hard deadline of September 1, 2015 for terminating all remaining analog. Still a ways away, but it sucks that anybody would still be stuck with analog-only for some channels like Dan is.

Won't miss analog in the slightest here.
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Old 02-08-2013, 01:35 PM   #6
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Is the cost of the analog tuner that big of an expense or space taker? Is it a separate module?
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Old 02-08-2013, 01:38 PM   #7
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Good to hear they're not abandoning ATSC. Analog can go as far as I'm concerned.

Interesting accounting, $10 becomes $150.
I wonder if they are including all customers still using analog equipment. I'm still using analog since it provides me with the most freedom with my shows.
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Old 02-08-2013, 01:42 PM   #8
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Is the cost of the analog tuner that big of an expense or space taker? Is it a separate module?
They're claiming an expense of $10 per analog tuner and that the cost has actually risen over time. With the analog tuners would also come mpeg2 encoding and memory chips. So I suppose it adds up some in cost, PCB space, and power consumption.

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Old 02-08-2013, 01:43 PM   #9
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Apparently there is a hard deadline of September 1, 2015 for terminating all remaining analog. Still a ways away, but it sucks that anybody would still be stuck with analog-only for some channels like Dan is.

Won't miss analog in the slightest here.
My cable company also has a handful of channels still only available in analog.
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Old 02-08-2013, 01:46 PM   #10
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Glad to hear (OTA being kept)

This has been my biggest hangup in jumping to Premiere 4 or XL4 (cable only devices).

Some time ago i had cut the cord for about two years and watched strictly off a homemade HD antenna on my S3 OLED (lifetime'd). About a year and a half ago, i went back to cable (Comcast) and currently have two 2-tuner Premieres and my S3 OLED still going strong (the S3 is still on the HD antenna (only) and is not connected to cable at all, but I can transfer shows from each of the Premieres to it and from it as needed).

In the future, I may again cut the cord, but don't want to lose the flexibility of having TiVo for OTA (and availability to their latest boxes). While all 3 of my current boxes will accept OTA, it'd be nice to keep up (to some degree) with newer hardware as it comes out, that still has OTA capability.
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Old 02-08-2013, 01:52 PM   #11
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My cable company also has a handful of channels still only available in analog.
We actually have about 30, but only a few that I actually watch. (i.e. Comedy Central, A&E, FX & MSNBC) However if I had kids it would be a bigger issue as all of the kids channels, like Nick, Disney, Cartoon Network, ABC Family, etc..., are still analog only. What's really weird is that there are like 3 channels that are simulcast. I can tune them on both my Premiere Elite and my wife's S2. So why they can't just do that with the rest I don't know. If they could then I could get rid of my 2 tuner Premiere and use my Elite for everything.
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Old 02-08-2013, 01:58 PM   #12
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We still have some analog only stations here. However I'm more mad at Charter for not simulcasting them, or better yet providing HD versions, then I am at TiVo for dumping analog support. It's about time analog went away completely.
When I bought my Premiere 4 last month I was thinking I would lose the handful of Cox analog stations in my area that did not have an equivalent HD channel. I even gave some thought to just getting the 2-tuner Premiere but realized the only analog channel I had ever recorded from that group was TVLand and was willing to lose that. Then when I completed the initial setup, I was surprised to see all the SD channels still there - didn't realize Cox was simulcasting them in digital. Too bad Charter is not doing the same for you.

What happens when a cable company goes all digital? Do you have to have a STB or cable card at each TV then to get the basic package or do they just start providing more channels in clear QAM?
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Old 02-08-2013, 02:05 PM   #13
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90 days would put it in May. I forget how far after we saw the Elite. I believe it was released in September, but forget when TiVo filed the original waiver request.

This would put them May-July depending on the FCC. With the Mini not out yet, I could almost see them now waiting to release the Mini until the new boxes were announced.

3 days from now, 2/11, is 3 years since TiVo sent out the invitations to their event on March 2nd to announce the Premiere.
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Old 02-08-2013, 02:07 PM   #14
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What happens when a cable company goes all digital? Do you have to have a STB or cable card at each TV then to get the basic package or do they just start providing more channels in clear QAM?
Depends on the cableco. Most deliver the local channels in clear QAM and encrypt the national channels. So you would at the very least need a digital-capable TV to see the locals, but you need some type of STB/cablecard to view the rest.

I believe cablecos are now allowed to encrypt the locals too if they wish, but I don't think most do at this point.

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Old 02-08-2013, 02:08 PM   #15
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What happens when a cable company goes all digital? Do you have to have a STB or cable card at each TV then to get the basic package or do they just start providing more channels in clear QAM?
Actually the FCC just granted the cable cos permission to encrypt all QAM channels, even locals, if they switch to all digital. So for the ones that do that you'll need a box or CableCARD for every TV.
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Old 02-08-2013, 02:08 PM   #16
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What happens when a cable company goes all digital? Do you have to have a STB or cable card at each TV then to get the basic package or do they just start providing more channels in clear QAM?
A box at each TV, often referred to as DTA's (Digital Transport Adapter). I know Comcast began the switch to all digital at least a year ago. They offered the DTA's free initially, but are now charging for each one. Video quality may be better, but the conversion is actually more beneficial for the provider since they save a lot of the bandwidth that used to carry the analog signal. They also get to charge you per TV connected (via the box) again as it was back in the 70's and 80's. The only caveat to the cable company is dealing with their legacy customers who have been running analog without any boxes in the home for the last 10+ years and having to send techs out to install DTA's in those homes.
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Old 02-08-2013, 02:16 PM   #17
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We still have some analog only stations here. However I'm more mad at Charter for not simulcasting them, or better yet providing HD versions, then I am at TiVo for dumping analog support. It's about time analog went away completely.
Charter has been simulcasting 2-99 for us since last year. I don't know how long they have been doing it with cable box users, but they finally started mapping 2-99 to digital on my cablecard TiVos.
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Old 02-08-2013, 02:17 PM   #18
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Depends on the cableco. Most broadcast the local channels in clean QAM and encrypt the national channels. So you would at the very least need a digital-capable TV to see the locals, but you need some type of STB/cablecard to view the rest.
That's what I was afraid of. Currently in my bedroom I have an HDTV with no STB. I get all the local channels from Cox in HD via clear QAM. But I also get the national channels 2 through 70 in analog and it sounds like I would lose those without a STB if Cox went all-digital.

Of course, I'd like to put a Tivo Mini on that TV anyway and I've heard nothing of Cox threatening to go all-digital yet in my area. Hopefully the Mini will be out before Cox would ever go all-digital....
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Old 02-08-2013, 02:19 PM   #19
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Probably related to the recent TiVo survey which mentioned a 300 HD hour 4 tuner device with OTA support. And to set the stage for a Premiere replacement towards the end of the year or early next year.
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Old 02-08-2013, 02:20 PM   #20
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90 days would put it in May. I forget how far after we saw the Elite. I believe it was released in September, but forget when TiVo filed the original waiver request.

This would put them May-July depending on the FCC. With the Mini not out yet, I could almost see them now waiting to release the Mini until the new boxes were announced.
The 2011 petition was submitted on June 7. They got the approval exactly 90 days later in September during CEDIA. Then released it in October. Is 90 days automatic? In the original petition they said their request met certain requirements to be considered within 90 days, but they're not giving it any mention this time.
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Old 02-08-2013, 02:29 PM   #21
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It seems silly to have OTA and non OTA hardware, they need to just figure out how to have 2/2 QAM/OTA, 4/4 QAM/OTA or 6/6 QAM/OTA tuner sets and be able to dynamically allocate any combination of tuners up to the total number of tuners that box supports.

I agree that Analog needs to go... removal of NTSC and MPEG 2 encoders should free up quite a bit of room on a redesigned motherboard, not to mention costs.
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Old 02-08-2013, 02:55 PM   #22
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The current box has the MPEG-2 encoders built into the Broadcom chipset. They're not separate chips. However the Brodadcom chipset used in the current Premiere platform only supports encoding 2 streams at once, which is why they disabled analog for the 4 tuner box in the first place.

With this new generation they may be looking at a chipset that doesn't do encoding at all, or they could be looking at one that does encoding but then to use those capabilities for built in Stream capabilities rather then to record analog video.

Either way with such a small percentage of cable companies still using analog it makes sense. Plus if it makes room for a 4/4 QAM/ATSC configuration that will make a lot of people happy.
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Old 02-08-2013, 02:56 PM   #23
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I'm wondering if they should even bother with a 2-tuner model of anything going forward. They just had a sale on 4-tuner boxes for $200. If they're going to (rightly) drop analog, maybe they should reuse the resources for OTA tuners.

I don't know what the tuner threshold of the Broadcom BCM7425 is, but that chip is being used in the Hopper with Sling and the 6-tuner Tivo/Pace XG1.

If Tivo were to be aggressive for the next-gen, we do know that the beefier BCM7435 could potentially support 8 tuners (making 4/4 or 6/2 or 6/0 possible) and has QUAD transcode streaming. If we go by Tivo's typical 2-year development cycle, the earliest this theoretical BCM7435 box would likely come out would be early next year. But... Tivo doesn't have a history of being too aggressive on their hardware, so it might be hoping for too much.

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Old 02-08-2013, 03:28 PM   #24
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The 2011 petition was submitted on June 7. They got the approval exactly 90 days later in September during CEDIA. Then released it in October. Is 90 days automatic? In the original petition they said their request met certain requirements to be considered within 90 days, but they're not giving it any mention this time.
I assumed it was, but you are probably right. I forgot about the expedited request last time.
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Old 02-08-2013, 03:36 PM   #25
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I wish they'd move to an architecture that puts MPEG 4 encoders between the Tuner and the Hard Drive. That way they can save space by encoding the incoming MPEG 2 streams to MPEG 4 at a much lower bitrate and remove the need for the stream at all.

Transcoding existing recordings and live tv to MPEG 4 every time seems to be a waste, do it once when it comes in and be done with it.
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Old 02-08-2013, 03:55 PM   #26
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I'm wondering if they should even bother with a 2-tuner model of anything going forward. They just had a sale on 4-tuner boxes for $200. If they're going to (rightly) drop analog, maybe they should reuse the resources for OTA tuners.

I don't know what the tuner threshold of the Broadcom BCM7425 is, but that chip is being used in the Hopper with Sling and the 6-tuner Tivo/Pace XG1.

If Tivo were to be aggressive for the next-gen, we do know that the beefier BCM7435 could potentially support 8 tuners (making 4/4 or 6/2 or 6/0 possible) and has QUAD transcode streaming. If we go by Tivo's typical 2-year development cycle, the earliest this theoretical BCM7435 box would likely come out would be early next year. But... Tivo doesn't have a history of being too aggressive on their hardware, so it might be hoping for too much.
Are there any Broadcom chips that support just 6 tuners? If so maybe they'll use that and do a 3/3 setup for cable and OTA and a 6/0 setup for cable only. They don't really need quad encoding capabilities. A dual encode H.264 chip would be plenty to offer built in Stream functionality.

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I wish they'd move to an architecture that puts MPEG 4 encoders between the Tuner and the Hard Drive. That way they can save space by encoding the incoming MPEG 2 streams to MPEG 4 at a much lower bitrate and remove the need for the stream at all.

Transcoding existing recordings and live tv to MPEG 4 every time seems to be a waste, do it once when it comes in and be done with it.
Most shows aren't encoded at all. They are simply recorded as-is from the data stream coming from your cable company. If your cable company starts to use MPEG-4 then TiVo will work just fine, just as it does now with MPEG-2. (there are a few places that are already starting to do this)

The only time an encoder comes into play is if the stream is analog or if you're streaming to a portable device like an iPad. This whole thread is about how TiVo is petitioning the FCC to allow them to produce boxes that don't do analog so that part is moot. So the only place an encoder would be needed is for streaming to a portable device. It makes much more sense for them to encode data on the fly for that purpose then it does to encode everything, reducing quality, just for the off chance that the user might want to stream to a portable device.
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Old 02-08-2013, 04:05 PM   #27
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Most shows aren't encoded at all. They are simply recorded as-is from the data stream coming from your cable company. If your cable company starts to use MPEG-4 then TiVo will work just fine, just as it does now with MPEG-2. (there are a few places that are already starting to do this)

The only time an encoder comes into play is if the stream is analog or if you're streaming to a portable device like an iPad. This whole thread is about how TiVo is petitioning the FCC to allow them to produce boxes that don't do analog so that part is moot. So the only place an encoder would be needed is for streaming to a portable device. It makes much more sense for them to encode data on the fly for that purpose then it does to encode everything, reducing quality, just for the off chance that the user might want to stream to a portable device.
I know, but what I'm suggesting would bring the benefits of MPEG 4 to everyone regardless of when their Cable Company decides to introduce it. It would also bring back the quality selector, retro anyone?



Encoding everything to MPEG 4 also brings the benefit of using much much MUCH less space on the hard drive. You can use 1/3rd the bit rate and still offer similar quality, that would translate to a tripling of the HD Hours stat (300 HD hours would be 900).
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Old 02-08-2013, 04:07 PM   #28
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Are there any Broadcom chips that support just 6 tuners? If so maybe they'll use that and do a 3/3 setup for cable and OTA and a 6/0 setup for cable only. They don't really need quad encoding capabilities. A dual encode H.264 chip would be plenty to offer built in Stream functionality.
I was wondering about them doing 3/3 as well. That'd make the cheaper 2-stream transcoder chip fit nicely. And a 3/3 and 6/0 setup is just plain cleaner than manufacturing 3 or more models with varying 2/2, 4/0, and 6/0 tuner setups.

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Old 02-08-2013, 04:22 PM   #29
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I know, but what I'm suggesting would bring the benefits of MPEG 4 to everyone regardless of when their Cable Company decides to introduce it. It would also bring back the quality selector, retro anyone?



Encoding everything to MPEG 4 also brings the benefit of using much much MUCH less space on the hard drive. You can use 1/3rd the bit rate and still offer similar quality, that would translate to a tripling of the HD Hours stat (300 HD hours would be 900).
Never going to happen. Disk space is cheap, transcoding is not. Plus there are too many usability concerns when it comes to allowing the user to select a quality when you have the possibility of 3 different levels of incoming video. (i.e. SD, 720p and 1080i) If this waiver is granted then that quality selection screen is going to be gone for good from all future TiVo models.
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Old 02-08-2013, 06:08 PM   #30
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While it might not make sense from an economy of scale, maybe they use the beefier chip for the 4 hopefully 6 tuner model and then can use a lesser model in the base model.
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