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Old 08-14-2013, 01:05 AM   #751
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The CableCARD has nothing to do with VOD tuning. The request for a VOD program is routed from the TiVo to Comcast's head-end over the TiVo's Internet connection, and in reply the TiVo is told which channel to tune to receive the requested program.
The cable card is what encodes and maps the tuner signal, you can't have cable VOD without a cable card on Comcast in CT.
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Old 08-14-2013, 07:18 AM   #752
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Because, them's [sic] the rules. The data is being segregated per user, so those recordings are for that one user.

If you only keep one copy, then you are CLEARLY (legally) making duplicate copies, breaking copyright laws.
I would guess that they probably are using block-level deduplication at the hardware level (ie the SAN this data is being stored on) to reduce disk space utilization. At the logical or file level (application), this is still seen as multiple copies, but duplicate blocks are only stored once.

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Old 08-14-2013, 07:43 AM   #753
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I would guess that they probably are using block-level deduplication at the hardware level (ie the SAN this data is being stored on) to reduce disk space utilization. At the logical or file level (application), this is still seen as multiple copies, but duplicate blocks are only stored once.

Scott
I doubt it since "Cablevision's position was that the system was identical to those that had legally been deployed for years by consumers; it just shifted the location of the hardware into the cloud. "
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Old 08-14-2013, 10:58 AM   #754
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After reading through it, I'm with lpwcomp. As much as it makes complete and absolute sense to those of us who understand that bits are bits, and it doesn't make a damn bit (hah!) of difference if you have 1 copy of them or n copies of them...the legalities make this impossible. In my opinion, the copyright laws just haven't caught up to technology.

Imagine the $$$ savings in terms of hardware costs, cooling, real-estate (rack space), maintenance, etc. that CableVision could incur by keeping at most 3 copies of any show that someone had requested to be recorded... All without ever delivering said show to anyone that didn't ask for it to be recorded in the first place. Oh well.
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Old 08-14-2013, 12:09 PM   #755
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The written word equivalent would be for Amazon to keep only one copy of any eBook that has been uploaded to anyone's Kindle account.
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Old 08-14-2013, 12:37 PM   #756
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The written word equivalent would be for Amazon to keep only one copy of any eBook that has been uploaded to anyone's Kindle account.
Amazon is probably allowed to keep only one copy and distribute it to anyone who purchases.
I think many here are getting confused with what is law and what isn't here.
It is not law that Cablevision must keep one copy for each person who records it. It is law that they must follow copyright laws. Those basically allow the copyright holder to restrict distribution of the material. What happened for Cablevision is they showed that by making their equipment act just like a household DVR (one copy per request), they were able to not be considered to be distributing (or rebroadcasting) the stored program. However, if Cablevision were to get permission from all the copyright holders, they could keep only one copy and send it out when requested (that is basically what VOD is). My point is that the arbitrary nature of this is not directly rooted in law. Courts have found that individuals have a fair use right to record programming (use a DVR). Here for Cablevision, they said that moving the recording to be at Cablevison's premisses is equivalent to using a household DVR. However, there has not been a case that directly took up the ability for Cablevision to keep only one copy. Cablevision felt that they had a reasonable chance of losing that argument, because it looks a lot more like existing VOD. Thus, they went with the surefire win. Going forward, if they copyright holders allowed them explicitly to do so, I am sure they would switch and only save a single requested copy.
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Old 08-14-2013, 01:01 PM   #757
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Amazon is probably allowed to keep only one copy and distribute it to anyone who purchases.
I'm not talking about eBooks that you load onto your Kindle or a device with a Kindle app, I am talking about eBooks that have been added to your Amazon Kindle account, including things you acquired elsewhere (like Baen). Even if you buy it ffrom Amazon, they are distributing it, i.e. giving you your own copy, not just providing access to their copy.
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Old 08-14-2013, 01:18 PM   #758
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The cable card is what encodes and maps the tuner signal, you can't have cable VOD without a cable card on Comcast in CT.
No channel mapping is required for VoD - the server at the head-end returns a QAM channel number (e.g., 76-4), *not* a typical STB channel number.
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Old 08-14-2013, 03:47 PM   #759
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I would't mind having that option so that you could choose which recordings or SPs would use cloud storage. So for someone with no bandwidth caps I could see that as a possible option to keeps costs down. Then you get a TiVo with a smaller hard drive for a lower cost and store some of your recordings in the cloud. Of course it would also depend on what they want to charge for cloud storage and if there is some kind of limit on how long the recordings can be stored.

It can certainly be done since BoxeeTV had cloud storage in their beta. But they also converted the recrodings to a lower quality and also lowered the audio quality to stereo. But it did work.
The bandwidth consumption would be out of control for little functionality. Even if I had FIOS, I wouldn't want 500GB/mo+ of data being uploaded for some "cloud" DVR functionality. Talk about ridiculous.

If anything, Sling-like functionality would make sense, as then it's only using bandwidth when it needs to. Or even an on-demand MRV-type solution with near-real-time H.264 re-encoding.
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Old 08-14-2013, 04:05 PM   #760
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I would guess that they probably are using block-level deduplication at the hardware level (ie the SAN this data is being stored on) to reduce disk space utilization. At the logical or file level (application), this is still seen as multiple copies, but duplicate blocks are only stored once.

Scott
They've already had this discussion over at DBSForum and your theory appears to be the correct one from what I recall of the banter back and forth.
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Old 08-14-2013, 05:01 PM   #761
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The bandwidth consumption would be out of control for little functionality. Even if I had FIOS, I wouldn't want 500GB/mo+ of data being uploaded for some "cloud" DVR functionality. Talk about ridiculous.

If anything, Sling-like functionality would make sense, as then it's only using bandwidth when it needs to. Or even an on-demand MRV-type solution with near-real-time H.264 re-encoding.
I wouldn't complain. 500GB up is nothing on FiOS. Of course one other thought, even though Dave said this was about personal media, who says it would be full size recordings. If the rumors are true and the new TiVo has transcoding built in it would just upload the smaller file formats which IIRC run about 1GB per hour at best quality. 500GB would then be 500 hours which is more than the TiVo can hold. This would be three and a half days of recording on all 6 tuners without a single open timeslot.

They could also do it similar to how you can setup KMTTG. It only uploads shows that are at risk of being deleted for space.

Of course as Dave said this is more about personal media in the cloud and not about TiVo recordings.
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Old 08-14-2013, 06:47 PM   #762
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So have the new products gone through FCC or it's not known, what was discovered was that an application for certification was with the FCC?
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Old 08-14-2013, 06:51 PM   #763
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So have the new products gone through FCC or it's not known, what was discovered was that an application for certification was with the FCC?
http://www.engadget.com/2013/08/07/t...pop-up-in-fcc/
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Old 08-15-2013, 07:46 AM   #764
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They've already had this discussion over at DBSForum and your theory appears to be the correct one from what I recall of the banter back and forth.
Can you post a link to the discussion? I'd be interested to see if they actually know any more than we do here. When I google "dbsforum", for the most part all I see is information that it died years ago. Well, that dbsforums died. There doesn't seem to be anything about "dbsforum".

The one brief discussion I found on another forum mentioned the de-duping technology but another poster stated that Cablevision was not using it and that they were indeed making separate copies for each user.

If they were using de-duping, what would be the reasoning behind the storage limits that they have?
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Old 08-15-2013, 09:19 AM   #765
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I'm not talking about eBooks that you load onto your Kindle or a device with a Kindle app, I am talking about eBooks that have been added to your Amazon Kindle account, including things you acquired elsewhere (like Baen). Even if you buy it ffrom Amazon, they are distributing it, i.e. giving you your own copy, not just providing access to their copy.
Gotcha. I missed that you were referring specifically to the cloud storage service, not the product sales.
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Old 08-15-2013, 03:12 PM   #766
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Can you post a link to the discussion? I'd be interested to see if they actually know any more than we do here. When I google "dbsforum", for the most part all I see is information that it died years ago. Well, that dbsforums died. There doesn't seem to be anything about "dbsforum".

The one brief discussion I found on another forum mentioned the de-duping technology but another poster stated that Cablevision was not using it and that they were indeed making separate copies for each user.

If they were using de-duping, what would be the reasoning behind the storage limits that they have?
Sorry made a mistake, it's DBSTalk forum where I read something. Don't have time to find exact link as I'm heading to work, but it was recent within past couple months. I remember reading it in passing but not really caring about the topic as it was mixed in with a different one. If I get time I'll try to find something.
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Old 08-15-2013, 04:03 PM   #767
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Sorry made a mistake, it's DBSTalk forum where I read something. Don't have time to find exact link as I'm heading to work, but it was recent within past couple months. I remember reading it in passing but not really caring about the topic as it was mixed in with a different one. If I get time I'll try to find something.
If it is this thread, it proves nothing one way or another. It is just as much speculation as we have here. If recordings are only logically unique, it would have come out during the discovery process, we would probably know about it and Cablevision would have had a much tougher time defending it.

To get this back to the subject of this thread, I for one have absolutely no desire for a purely cloud based DVR.
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Old 08-15-2013, 10:42 PM   #768
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To get this back to the subject of this thread, I for one have absolutely no desire for a purely cloud based DVR.
Same here!
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Old 08-16-2013, 12:43 AM   #769
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I would only be interested in a cloud based solution that focused on providing remote access to content. Either via a mobile device app or laptop using an updated TiVo desktop.

I can imagine a scenario where you remotely initiate the transfer of a movie from your library to the cloud and (after enough has transferred) begin watching that movie on your remote device. Much more stable then the sling media solution... That is a use case that would generate some excitement!

For home use, locally stored content is going to be a much better user experience.

I also don't want post processing DRM to be applied to content I own - a concern that I have anytime someone else has access to your private library.
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Old 08-16-2013, 09:06 AM   #770
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I visited one of my local Best Buys yesterday and the TiVo display is cleared out of DVRs. I suggest a few recon missions this weekend to your local outposts and interviewing the BBY personnel. Could be soon...

Model numbers we're looking for:
TCD846500
TCD848000
TCD840300
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Old 08-16-2013, 09:35 AM   #771
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That sounds good. The quicker the S4 models get sold the better. I need to wait until they are all gone before I sell my ELites. SO I guess I'll end up waiting to sell them until a few weeks after the S5 models have appeared.
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Old 08-16-2013, 09:56 AM   #772
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I visited one of my local Best Buys yesterday and the TiVo display is cleared out of DVRs. I suggest a few recon missions this weekend to your local outposts and interviewing the BBY personnel. Could be soon...

Model numbers we're looking for:
TCD846500
TCD848000
TCD840300
Already tried. The one was of little use here. They weren't a Magnolia store though. They still have the Premiere on the shelf for sale at $99. Of course this is also the store that has never had the display work. I asked the guy and all he did was look up bestbuy.com which of course didn't show it.

I did call a Magnolia store, but didn't get anything new. He showed some on order, but no release and I didn't press for a model number. I threw out the $299 price which he hesitantly agreed almost like he realized he probably shouldn't give this out.
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Old 08-16-2013, 10:44 AM   #773
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I visited one of my local Best Buys yesterday and the TiVo display is cleared out of DVRs. I suggest a few recon missions this weekend to your local outposts and interviewing the BBY personnel. Could be soon...

Model numbers we're looking for:
TCD846500
TCD848000
TCD840300
do you have reason to believe that the launch is eminent? they are not going to do a press conference in front of a podium and a barely visible projector screen like the premiere launch?
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Old 08-16-2013, 10:50 AM   #774
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do you have reason to believe that the launch is eminent? they are not going to do a press conference in front of a podium and a barely visible projector screen like the premiere launch?
I suspect that we will see a soft launch in the coming days with multiple reviews from various news outlets including The Verge, Engadget, Cnet, ... followed by a significant advertising campaign prior to the launch of the Fall TV Season and the NFL Football season. It will take some time for the shelves and warehouses at Best Buy and Amazon to have sufficient inventory on stock.
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Old 08-16-2013, 11:09 AM   #775
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I would have to imagine their goal is to get it out there in the next week or so. I could not imagine a worse to to release their new line of Tivos AFTER the new fall season starts. You want people to buy them and get them all set up BEFORE the new fall season starts. Once it starts and people start recording all of their new shows, it becomes a lot more complex to simply go out and upgrade. I assume they realize this.
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Old 08-16-2013, 11:14 AM   #776
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I would have to imagine their goal is to get it out there in the next week or so. I could not imagine a worse to to release their new line of Tivos AFTER the new fall season starts. You want people to buy them and get them all set up BEFORE the new fall season starts. Once it starts and people start recording all of their new shows, it becomes a lot more complex to simply go out and upgrade. I assume they realize this.
It makes it easier to upgrade after the season has started. If starting form scratch, all the shows are on the schedule so you can find them in the guide to setup the Season Passes.

If you are upgrading then it's just a matter of using the online Season Pass manager which works great. I used it when I upgraded to my Elites without any issue. But since it was during the normal Tv season it was much easier than if it had been during Summer when most of the shows woudl not have been scheduled yet. It's easier to see if there will be any issues when the shows are being broadcast.

Plus when upgrading to a new model, I typically run the boxes concurrently for a few weeks.

I'm not even sure I've had a new TiVo released before the Tv season started. Excpet maybe the TiVoHD. I remember the DirecTV HDTiVo being launched in late May/early June after the season had ended and I remember I had wished it had launched during the TV season so I could have used it more.
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Old 08-16-2013, 11:17 AM   #777
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It makes it easier to upgrade after the season has started. If starting form scratch, all the shows are on the schedule so you can find them in the guide to setup the Season Passes.

If you are upgrading then it's just a matter of using the online Season Pass manager which works great. I used it when I upgraded to my Elites without any issue. But since it was during the normal Tv season it was much easier than if it had been during Summer when most of the shows woudl not have been scheduled yet. It's easier to see if there will be any issues when the shows are being broadcast.

Plus when upgrading to a new model, I typically run the boxes concurrently for a few weeks.
Keep in mind that they are targeting this to new users as well as upgraders. Would love to see them offer some sort of incentive for current Premiere users to upgrade better than the MSD.
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Old 08-16-2013, 11:20 AM   #778
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Keep in mind that they are targeting this to new users as well as upgraders. Would love to see them offer some sort of incentive for current Premiere users to upgrade better than the MSD.
I would love it too. But if these low prices that are predicted are true, then I can't see them dropping more money off the lifetime service. But I guess you never know. I just know that if they do offer a deal, it will probably happen after I've already picked up my S5. I do hope they don't have a soft launch though. I hate those since you never know what stores will have the TiVos.
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Old 08-16-2013, 11:22 AM   #779
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I would definitely find it easier before the new fall season. I am already dreading the thought of offloading the content from my Elite.

Before the new fall season I can start completely fresh without having to worry about transferring recordings of new shows, while also setting up season passes.
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Old 08-16-2013, 11:23 AM   #780
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I would love it too. But if these low prices that are predicted are true, then I can't see them dropping more money off the lifetime service. But I guess you never know. I just know that if they do offer a deal, it will probably happen after I've already picked up my S5. I do hope they don't have a soft launch though. I hate those since you never know what stores will have the TiVos.
Hopefully it is like the Elite and they offer a upgrade offer for discounted lifetime so we can still buy at Best Buy.

The Elite was somewhat of a soft launch. We didn't see it advertised in the Best Buy flyers till about 3 weeks after it was available.
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