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Old 06-18-2013, 12:19 AM   #61
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Originally Posted by alansh View Post
You accelerate to above your target speed, with the goal of none going into the battery. Once you're above your target speed you coast, with the engine turning off automatically. Once you've slowed enough, you repeat.
While you are coasting you are charging the battery.
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Old 06-18-2013, 02:02 AM   #62
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While you are coasting you are charging the battery.
Yeah, you're not supposed to coast (at least if you're in D).

Normally one should glide. See http://www.cleanmpg.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1224. You're supposed to dead band so that no arrows are going in/out anywhere (see Proper Glide picture).

Basically, you want to minimize the power flow in or out of the battery as doing so incurs losses.
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Old 06-18-2013, 09:21 AM   #63
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This all sounds like way too much work and hassle for me :P

I just get in my car and drive. When I want better mileage I fill up with 100% gas and skip that ethanol crap
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Old 06-18-2013, 10:55 AM   #64
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This all sounds like way too much work and hassle for me :P
I agree....and who wants to "work" that hard while driving?
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Old 06-18-2013, 11:37 AM   #65
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How long have you had it / how is it so far? The Volt is a certainly different beast... I remember reading that Jay Leno had 11,000 miles on his Volt and still had half the original tank of gas.
We've had it over a year. If you have a daily commute shorter than 40 miles you almost never use gas. For those longer weekend trips the gas generator kicks in to supply another 300+ miles. While the gas motor is running we get around 40 MPG. The 100 MPG figure is combining it with our battery use.

Many of the hypermiler tricks are also used to wring as much range as possible from the battery. I'm surprised they didn't over-inflate the tires to 40 lbs which is a common practice.
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Old 06-18-2013, 03:58 PM   #66
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This all sounds like way too much work and hassle for me :P

I just get in my car and drive. When I want better mileage I fill up with 100% gas and skip that ethanol crap
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I agree....and who wants to "work" that hard while driving?
Once you get used to driving more economically, much of it just becomes second nature. For example, once I got an electric car, I couldn't understand why people have to "race" up to an already red light or stop sign. You know you have to stop...why use extra gas just to get you there a second early? You also use up brake pads faster because now you have to scrub off all that extra speed.

Keeping speeds down really isn't hard work either. I've driven at 65 MPH on a posted 65 MPH freeway...even in LA, it's quite possible to do this

Some of the techniques like shutting off the engine at traffic lights (without the use of auto stop/start) I do agree is more work, and when I drive my ICEV I only do this when I know I'll be stopped for quite some time, such as at a train crossing.
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Old 06-18-2013, 04:11 PM   #67
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For example, once I got an electric car, I couldn't understand why people have to "race" up to an already red light or stop sign. You know you have to stop...why use extra gas just to get you there a second early? You also use up brake pads faster because now you have to scrub off all that extra speed.
So you're saying that you used to do that until you got an Electric vehicle?

I have a regular gas car and I can't for the life of me understand why people do that. It always reminds me of the scene from "Meet the Parents" when Ben Stiller and Robert DeNiro are racing from light to light.
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Old 06-18-2013, 04:27 PM   #68
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Keeping speeds down really isn't hard work either. I've driven at 65 MPH on a posted 65 MPH freeway...even in LA, it's quite possible to do this
Yes, but have you driven at 45 MPH on a posted 65 MPH freeway not due to traffic?

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Old 06-18-2013, 05:37 PM   #69
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On Gen 3 Prius, I believe the max speed at which you can drive w/the ICE not turning is ~46 mph, rather than 40 or 41 mph.

There's also the efficiency map at http://priuschat.com/threads/2010-pr...ncy-map.62586/. 1NZ-FXE is the 1.5L engine used in the Gen 2 (04-09) Prius while the 2ZR-FXE is the 1.8L engine used in the 2010+ Prius liftbacks.
I should emphasize the distinction here between the ICE turning (components rotating) and the ICE turning on. I believe the Gen 3 Prius and Camry equivalent can have the ICE off > 46 mph but no gas is being used.
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Old 06-18-2013, 06:59 PM   #70
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So you're saying that you used to do that until you got an Electric vehicle?

I have a regular gas car and I can't for the life of me understand why people do that. It always reminds me of the scene from "Meet the Parents" when Ben Stiller and Robert DeNiro are racing from light to light.
Actually, yes, but not as extreme as some.

An example is I will drive along a posted 40 MPH boulevard at the posted limit. I see the light about 2 blocks ahead is red, or just turned red, so I'll let off the accelerator. A block away my speed has dropped to about 30 MPH as I'm trying to use as little brake as possible, but people behind me will get impatient and rocket past me and still get stuck at the red light.

Before I got the electric car I wouldn't let off the gas until I was less than a block from the light. But some folks will not let off until fairly close to the light, and then they have to use quite a bit of braking.

Then those same folks are left wondering when as soon as the light is green, I can accelerate fairly quickly away from a stop with relatively little accelerator pedal pressure, thanks to having 210 lb-ft of torque available throughout the motor's rev range.
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Old 06-18-2013, 07:00 PM   #71
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Yes, but have you driven at 45 MPH on a posted 65 MPH freeway not due to traffic?
Yes, when it's extremely foggy or rainy. But when the weather's that bad, I prefer to stay off the roads completely if I can.
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Old 06-18-2013, 09:29 PM   #72
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Actually, yes, but not as extreme as some.

An example is I will drive along a posted 40 MPH boulevard at the posted limit. I see the light about 2 blocks ahead is red, or just turned red, so I'll let off the accelerator. A block away my speed has dropped to about 30 MPH as I'm trying to use as little brake as possible, but people behind me will get impatient and rocket past me and still get stuck at the red light.
You've also go to keep in mind that many people just aren't very good drivers. They barely look past the end of their hood. I've seen people get stuck in lane closures where there was a big flashing sign that could be seen for half a mile in relatively light traffic. But they don't see it until they are almost on top of the first traffic horse.

Those people wouldn't notice that the traffic light ahead was red until they got within a few hundred feet.
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Old 06-18-2013, 11:00 PM   #73
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You've also go to keep in mind that many people just aren't very good drivers. They barely look past the end of their hood. I've seen people get stuck in lane closures where there was a big flashing sign that could be seen for half a mile in relatively light traffic. But they don't see it until they are almost on top of the first traffic horse.

Those people wouldn't notice that the traffic light ahead was red until they got within a few hundred feet.
I see it more as people who slow down a 2 blocks away assume they're the only one on the road. They ignore traffic triggered lights (if you're not close it won't go green). If you're in the right lane you can be blocking the guy who is going to turn right on red. If you're in the left lane (if there is one ) you're blocking the guy who wants to get into the left turn lane. If the left turn signal is traffic operated you just made that person wait through an entire cycle, with his engine idling. (There's one intersection in my town where people do that to me all the time)

The descriptions about clueless drivers above only mention inattentiveness to the road, but doesn't mention other people who may not be going where you expect. Forcing everyone to drive the way you are is just rude. Driving slower than normal so that traffic is bunching up behind you is as bad as tailgating someone to make them speed up.

Basically driving like that with anyone behind you is the same as sticking your middle finger out at them.
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Old 06-19-2013, 08:30 AM   #74
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Actually, yes, but not as extreme as some.

An example is I will drive along a posted 40 MPH boulevard at the posted limit. I see the light about 2 blocks ahead is red, or just turned red, so I'll let off the accelerator. A block away my speed has dropped to about 30 MPH as I'm trying to use as little brake as possible, but people behind me will get impatient and rocket past me and still get stuck at the red light.

Before I got the electric car I wouldn't let off the gas until I was less than a block from the light. But some folks will not let off until fairly close to the light, and then they have to use quite a bit of braking.

Then those same folks are left wondering when as soon as the light is green, I can accelerate fairly quickly away from a stop with relatively little accelerator pedal pressure, thanks to having 210 lb-ft of torque available throughout the motor's rev range.
I drive my gas car like you drive your electric car.

I always get a smile on my face those times when (by luck) I timed my coasting well so that I get off the intersection faster than the people who accelerated to the intersection and had to do a full stop.
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Old 06-19-2013, 09:23 AM   #75
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I'd lump hypermilers in with the crazy couponers
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Old 06-19-2013, 09:38 AM   #76
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I drive my gas car like you drive your electric car.
You may not want to visit Gilroy then!
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Old 06-19-2013, 11:08 AM   #77
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Actually, yes, but not as extreme as some.

An example is I will drive along a posted 40 MPH boulevard at the posted limit. I see the light about 2 blocks ahead is red, or just turned red, so I'll let off the accelerator. A block away my speed has dropped to about 30 MPH as I'm trying to use as little brake as possible, but people behind me will get impatient and rocket past me and still get stuck at the red light.

Before I got the electric car I wouldn't let off the gas until I was less than a block from the light. But some folks will not let off until fairly close to the light, and then they have to use quite a bit of braking.

Then those same folks are left wondering when as soon as the light is green, I can accelerate fairly quickly away from a stop with relatively little accelerator pedal pressure, thanks to having 210 lb-ft of torque available throughout the motor's rev range.
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I drive my gas car like you drive your electric car.

I always get a smile on my face those times when (by luck) I timed my coasting well so that I get off the intersection faster than the people who accelerated to the intersection and had to do a full stop.
My grand dad used to do this kind of thing. I think it was a holdover from when he was a truck driver. When he got old he took it to the extreme. He would slow down to single digit speed if the traffic signal on the horizon was red and floor it when it turned green.
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Old 06-19-2013, 03:27 PM   #78
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My grand dad used to do this kind of thing. I think it was a holdover from when he was a truck driver. When he got old he took it to the extreme. He would slow down to single digit speed if the traffic signal on the horizon was red and floor it when it turned green.
I don't take it to that extreme. People don't honk when I'm doing it.

I caught a little bit of the Dragnet movie (Dan Aykroyd and Tom Hanks.) Tom Hank's character was making fun of Dan Aykroid's character for driving so slow. He said he was driving 8 mph below the speed limit to save the taxpayer's some gas money.
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Old 06-19-2013, 08:32 PM   #79
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I caught a little bit of the Dragnet movie (Dan Aykroyd and Tom Hanks.) Tom Hank's character was making fun of Dan Aykroid's character for driving so slow. He said he was driving 8 mph below the speed limit to save the taxpayer's some gas money.
IIRC he also drove a Yugo, "the pinnacle of Serbo-Croatian technology" in the words of the Joe Friday character.
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Old 06-19-2013, 11:04 PM   #80
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I was actually hoping they would do another HM thing - accelerating 5mph above posted speed limit then coasting down ...
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I can't imagine how that would save any gas. Since the drag on the car is more or less constant at those speeds, it seems you would burn more gas to produce the amount of energy required to accelerate the mass of the car and to overcome drag from air resistance and tire friction than you could possibly save by coasting back down. It's been many years since I took physics, but I believe the power required to overcome aerodynamic drag increases as the cube of the velocity (it might be the square not cube... it's been a while). At high speeds (say going from 65 to 70) that power difference won't be a lot, but it's still additional power required, and you still have to add the power required to accelerate the mass of the car as well.
I think hypermilers are erroneously taking results from world record holders getting 10,000+ MPG in super specialized vehicles averaging 15mph, for example (from the Shell Eco-marathon) from wiki http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eco-marathon :
"The top performing vehicles are specially designed for high efficiency. Some vehicles use a coast/burn technique whereby they briefly accelerate from 10 to 20 mph (from 16 to 32 km/h) and then switch the engine off and coast for approximately 2 minutes until the speed drops back down to 10 mph (16 km/h). This process is repeated resulting in average speed of 15 mph for the course. Typically the vehicles have:
Automobile drag coefficients (Cd) < 0.1
Rolling resistance coefficients < 0.0015
Weight without driver of < 45 kg
Engine efficiency of < 200 s.f.c. (cc/bhp/hr)
The vehicles are highly specialized and optimized for the event and are not intended for everyday use. The designs represent what can be achieved with current technology and offer a glimpse into the future of car design based on minimal environmental impact in a world with reduced oil reserves. The work of the participants can be used to show ways manufacturers could redesign their products."

For real life products, these results aren't really applicable. A little bit of knowledge is dangerous. Or in this case, just stupid.

Regarding other parts of this episode... the SynDavers were cool. Were they SynDavers (from that company) which run $40,000 each? Or from some other company? $80k to destroy a couple of dummies for the episode would seem to have reached a new budget threshold for the Mythbusters.
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Old 06-19-2013, 11:59 PM   #81
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Regarding other parts of this episode... the SynDavers were cool. Were they SynDavers (from that company) which run $40,000 each? Or from some other company? $80k to destroy a couple of dummies for the episode would seem to have reached a new budget threshold for the Mythbusters.
Right company, I think, but wrong model. I'm pretty sure they're using the "Muscled Full Body" Anatomy Model from that company, which retails for $13k... and I'd bet they're getting a (much) better deal than retail pricing.
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Old 06-20-2013, 01:50 AM   #82
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I think hypermilers are erroneously taking results from world record holders getting 10,000+ MPG in super specialized vehicles averaging 15mph, for example (from the Shell Eco-marathon) from wiki
I'm not so sure about that. They've achieved records at Hybridfest (I don't have the links handy) and records like http://www.cleanmpg.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2783 (2,254.4 miles on 13.72 gallons = 164.315 mpg on a Gen 1 Insight).

Also see my links in post 27.

A Priuschatter did this graph: http://priuschat.com/threads/updated...h-chart.64296/. I found http://www.cnn.com/video/standard.ht...ack.hybrid.cnn (from http://priuschat.com/threads/lifetim.../#post-1363174) on Japanese hypermilers. That video on the shogun is a bit misleading, his Prius wasn't a plug-in (to charge the battery). It was for the engine block heater: to cut or eliminate warm up time, which is a period of high fuel consumption.

I was going to post a video I found on Wayne Gerdes on CNN, but apparently Waldorf in post 40 beat me to it. I hadn't seen it before until today.

BTW, personally, I think the hypermiling behavior of folks like Wayne and the shogun are extreme and not something I'd recommend. There are a few things one can do that bother nobody and are simple (e.g. face out parking, FASing into a parking spot, combining trips, going to the furthest destination first, keeping your speed down a bit, etc.)

But, it does irk me to see some of the bad driving people have talked about (e.g. accelerating/racing to red lights). I've also seen people idling their cars for an extended period of time for no apparent reason in parking lots (not cold, not hot out).

I've also seen enormous lines (dozen+ cars long) at certain fast food places like In-N-Out and almost none of them are hybrids, PHEVs, EVs nor any car w/auto stop/start systems. Some of them are BRoD class SUVs. Hope none of those folks are complaining of high gas prices or poor gas miles.

RonDawg summed up people's unwillingness to change their own driving behaviors even during "high" gas prices pretty well at http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb...54#post9625954.

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Old 06-20-2013, 05:49 AM   #83
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But, it does irk me to see some of the bad driving people have talked about (e.g. accelerating/racing to red lights)...RonDawg summed up people's unwillingness to change their own driving behaviors even during "high" gas prices pretty well at http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb...54#post9625954.
I experienced a couple of examples of such behavior tonight. First, as I'm driving down a local 65 MPH posted freeway at, shocker, 65 MPH I noticed a Honda Civic tailgating me. Never mind there were three open lanes to my left, she insisted on following too closely.

Rather than do a "brake check" that is so tempting, but so dangerous, I do the recommended thing and simply let my speed scrub off naturally. I put the car in "Eco" mode and let off the accelerator, and let the car's regen naturally slow the car to about 55 MPH. She finally got the point and went around me, at which time I found out her particular Civic was a hybrid model. Why buy the slower model that supposedly gets better mileage if you're going to rocket around me at 80 MPH

And no, she didn't need to exit at the next ramp, so nobody was "holding her up." It's her failure to drive with her head out of her anus and either maintain a safe following distance, or use the other three lanes to pass me. G-d forbid I actually obey the speed limit.

Second one is the same posted 40 MPH boulevard on which my stated driving style seems to have gotten a rather strong reaction earlier. Traffic is going about 45 MPH, and yes I am slowing like I mentioned earlier. But frankly, so is everybody else due to the amount of traffic. That still didn't stop some kid (no older than 21 from what I can tell, so likely parents bought the car for him) in a new Toyobaru driving like a jackazz and passing everybody. Or trying to anyway, because the traffic signal gods were not in his favor. And guess who often ended up in the lane next to him, or right behind him, at EVERY single traffic light for several miles
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Old 06-20-2013, 10:10 AM   #84
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Could it be that the first a-hat was (in her mind) trying to take advantage of the spoiled air behind you to reduce her vehicle's fuel consumption? (Not that it excuses the tailgating)
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Old 06-20-2013, 12:03 PM   #85
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Could it be that the first a-hat was (in her mind) trying to take advantage of the spoiled air behind you to reduce her vehicle's fuel consumption? (Not that it excuses the tailgating)
That was one of the techniques they did not use, along with rolling stops.
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Old 06-20-2013, 12:16 PM   #86
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That was one of the techniques they did not use, along with rolling stops.
They tested drafting on a previous episode I believe and determined you have to be extremely close (like 2 or 3 feet close) behind the other vehicle for it to be effective. It's been a while since I saw that episode, but I remember them having to put markers on the windshield of the test car and on the back of the lead vehicle for the test driver to line up in order to maintain distance since it was so close.
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Old 06-20-2013, 12:20 PM   #87
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Yeah, in that epsiode Grant was a couple of feet from the back bumper of that semi. He later said it was absolutely nerve-wracking.
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Old 06-20-2013, 02:03 PM   #88
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I believe that they did see some improvement even before they got that close in that episode. Although I'd doubt that drafting a car would be effective until you got as close as NASCAR racers do.
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Old 06-20-2013, 07:13 PM   #89
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She finally got the point and went around me, at which time I found out her particular Civic was a hybrid model. Why buy the slower model that supposedly gets better mileage if you're going to rocket around me at 80 MPH
I generally cruised around at or a bit above the 80 MPH speed limit in my 1st gen Insight. From my experience with that one specific hybrid, they are sportier then people think because they get obsessed with maximizing their MPG as opposed to driving. Even with the way I drove it, I still averaged 40 MPG.

In the drafting episode, they saw improvements at all distances with staggering improvements at distances closer then most people feel comfortable parking.

And I can vouch that you get a decent MPG bump with just about any drafting. But you are not drafting until you can feel your vehicle entering the turbulent wake behind another vehicle. In my F250, if I can get behind a semi, I'll see a 15% - 20% increase in MPG. In the BMW 323i we had, it would get a much bigger boost behind a semi at 80 MPH due to the relative size of the holes needed by each vehicle.

To get into the draft behind a Leaf at 60 MPH, you would have to get quite close indeed due to the small hole in the air it makes plus the extra aerodynamics they put into smoothing the overall airflow that results in a much smaller draft. I doubt anyone other then a bicyclist would see any benefit at all from trying.
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Old 06-21-2013, 10:51 AM   #90
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I have a Sonata hybrid which I believe is rated at 38 by the EPA. Just by doing the things that RonDawg mentioned, I get much better than that. My last tank was 43 MPG and that included a trip, during which I had to drive 70 MPH for about 60 miles. It isn't hard to do and after a while, it just becomes second nature.
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