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Old 06-12-2013, 11:09 PM   #1
GoPackGo
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Something about the synthetic cadaver was absolutely terrifying.

Of course Adam had an old Volvo!

I found it really annoying how they danced around ever saying that the police officers were fat. Plus sized. Big. Large. Wide. Heavyset. Just say fat!

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Old 06-13-2013, 12:03 AM   #2
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They said they have used 44 Buster variations over the years!

Did they mention the title of the movie that had the guy between the two fat cops in the car accident? I remember the scene, but I cannot remember the rest of the movie (or the name).
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Old 06-13-2013, 01:46 AM   #3
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They said they have used 44 Buster variations over the years!

Did they mention the title of the movie that had the guy between the two fat cops in the car accident? I remember the scene, but I cannot remember the rest of the movie (or the name).
I think they said the movie was called Headhunters?
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Old 06-13-2013, 02:52 AM   #4
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I thin you can extend your gas mileage by driving at 45MPH on the freeway, but at the expense of vastly shortening your personal lifespan.

That was quite the impact when the truck hit the car. I too thought the cops would provide cushion.
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Old 06-13-2013, 07:31 AM   #5
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Something about the synthetic cadaver was absolutely terrifying.

Of course Adam had an old Volvo!

I found it really annoying how they danced around ever saying that the police officers were fat. Plus sized. Big. Large. Wide. Heavyset. Just say fat!
Jamie did say fat before the last test.
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Old 06-13-2013, 09:09 AM   #6
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Jamie did say fat before the last test.
You're right. I wrote my statement before my viewing of the episode had ended.
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Old 06-13-2013, 10:29 AM   #7
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I think they said the movie was called Headhunters?
Thanks, that is it. Now I remember.
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Old 06-13-2013, 10:42 AM   #8
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I thin you can extend your gas mileage by driving at 45MPH on the freeway
Depends on the car. The "sweet spot" for economy seems to be in the 40-60 mph (according to auto websites), but depends on gearing, aerodynamics, weight, etc. In general, smaller, lighter, more aerodynamic cars will get their best mileage at the higher end of that range. Bigger, heavier, less aerodynamic vehicles will get their best mileage at lower speeds.
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Old 06-13-2013, 02:36 PM   #9
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And yet, the best gas mileage I ever got on my old grand cherokee was travelling across south dakota, where I got about 22 mpg, and the speed limit there at the time was around 75. (I did a lot of expressway driving on that trip, and even in other states, like I think it was iowa where it was a brutal 55, always did less on gas mileage.)
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Old 06-13-2013, 03:25 PM   #10
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And yet, the best gas mileage I ever got on my old grand cherokee was travelling across south dakota, where I got about 22 mpg, and the speed limit there at the time was around 75. (I did a lot of expressway driving on that trip, and even in other states, like I think it was iowa where it was a brutal 55, always did less on gas mileage.)
If everything else were equal, there is zero chance that a Grand Cherokee would get better gas mileage at 75mph than 55mph. The air resistance at 75mph is much higher than at 55mph, especially for a vehicle shaped like a GC. Any engine efficiency vs. rpm factors are going to be swamped by the much higher air resistance at 75mph.

So, to explain your findings you have to look at other factors. One would be whether you measured the gas mileage accurately and whether you remember correctly. Another important factor is headwinds and tailwinds. Traffic (varying speeds). Hills and mountains. Tire pressure. Whether windows were open. Air conditioning. Load. And others.

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Old 06-13-2013, 03:51 PM   #11
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Depends on the car. The "sweet spot" for economy seems to be in the 40-60 mph (according to auto websites), but depends on gearing, aerodynamics, weight, etc. In general, smaller, lighter, more aerodynamic cars will get their best mileage at the higher end of that range. Bigger, heavier, less aerodynamic vehicles will get their best mileage at lower speeds.
In my experience, 45 MPH is where transmissions generally shift into overdrive, so getting best mileage there is not surprise. My current car is 5 years old and just missed the transition to transmissions with more gears, so there might be a sweet spot now somewhat higher up.
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Old 06-13-2013, 04:00 PM   #12
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So what were their (general) findings on hypermiling?
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Old 06-13-2013, 04:22 PM   #13
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So what were their (general) findings on hypermiling?
You can increase your mileage by following several techniques that they tested, but it is difficult, and you cannot double your mileage. Also, although not stated, it was seen rather clearly that it may not be worth following several of the techniques unless you are really desperate to increase your mileage: windows up and A/C off was brutal; 45mph on the highway was causing traffic jams and getting other drivers angry; turning off the engine at a red light often resulted in very slow off the mark and honks from other drivers; avoiding braking on downhill runs made the passenger cringe when it felt like the car was nearly out of control.
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Old 06-13-2013, 06:34 PM   #14
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I've done hypermiling when running out of gas, and thought their finding on A/C versus open windows from an earlier episode was pretty interesting. I was actually hoping they would do another HM thing - accelerating 5mph above posted speed limit then coasting down ... I've always been curious if that method actually does anything but been too lazy to try it myself. I suppose they don't want to break the law on TV, even if its a 5mph over limit.
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Old 06-14-2013, 11:08 AM   #15
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You can increase your mileage by following several techniques that they tested, but it is difficult, and you cannot double your mileage. Also, although not stated, it was seen rather clearly that it may not be worth following several of the techniques unless you are really desperate to increase your mileage: windows up and A/C off was brutal; 45mph on the highway was causing traffic jams and getting other drivers angry; turning off the engine at a red light often resulted in very slow off the mark and honks from other drivers; avoiding braking on downhill runs made the passenger cringe when it felt like the car was nearly out of control.
They also said these methods were legal and going 45 on a posted 65 freeway (as many of those stretches were) is at the very edge of legality, if not safety. I would never recommend anybody drive at that speed on a California freeway unless conditions are such that you really shouldn't go any faster, such as during a rainstorm, and I certainly wouldn't go into the left lane like Tory did in one shot.

Turning off the engine at traffic lights has already been proven and has been incorporated into auto stop-start systems. When I was in Europe last year, I rented a BMW with auto stop-start and I didn't find it to be a problem at all. The car started right up with almost no delay once I took my foot off the brake.

They could have also controlled their speed on the downhill stretches by simply downshifting the transmission and taking advantage of engine braking.
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Old 06-14-2013, 11:35 AM   #16
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Turning off the engine at traffic lights has already been proven and has been incorporated into auto stop-start systems. When I was in Europe last year, I rented a BMW with auto stop-start and I didn't find it to be a problem at all. The car started right up with almost no delay once I took my foot off the brake.
I'm currently driving a Hyundai Sonata Hybrid rental and find the engine cut-off at stops to be a bit unnerving. Starts right up like a golf cart, though.
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Old 06-14-2013, 11:42 AM   #17
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I assume you can turn it off. What about those times when you're in heavy traffic and Need the air conditioner while you're stopped?
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Old 06-14-2013, 12:11 PM   #18
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They could have also controlled their speed on the downhill stretches by simply downshifting the transmission and taking advantage of engine braking.
No, you missed the point. They were avoiding braking of any kind in order to keep their momentum up and save fuel. If you brake (with the brakes, or the engine) before going into a turn, then you need to use more fuel later to speed up again.
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Old 06-14-2013, 12:26 PM   #19
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They prob could have shifted into neutral on the down slopes and idle the engine, but I know that's not generally legal.
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Old 06-14-2013, 12:36 PM   #20
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I assume you can turn it off. What about those times when you're in heavy traffic and Need the air conditioner while you're stopped?
The 2012 Camry Hybrid has electronic air conditioning and water pump.
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Old 06-14-2013, 01:53 PM   #21
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They also said these methods were legal and going 45 on a posted 65 freeway (as many of those stretches were) is at the very edge of legality, if not safety. I would never recommend anybody drive at that speed on a California freeway unless conditions are such that you really shouldn't go any faster, such as during a rainstorm, and I certainly wouldn't go into the left lane like Tory did in one shot.
I'm not sure but I thought that I saw a CHP escort for Kari and Grant when they ran out of gas on the hypermile lap.
Perhaps that prevented them from being victims of road rage.

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Old 06-14-2013, 02:24 PM   #22
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I'm not sure but I thought that I saw a CHP escort for Kari and Grant when they ran out of gas on the hypermile lap.
Perhaps that prevented them from being victims of road rage.
If you look closely, you can see Police escorts and traffic control in all their "on the road" segments. They do a pretty good job of editing it out, but you can still catch glimpses of them. Anything they have done on the public roads in the last few years has had a police presence (Blocking traffic, escort, shutting down roads, etc.)
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Old 06-14-2013, 03:26 PM   #23
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If you look closely, you can see Police escorts and traffic control in all their "on the road" segments. They do a pretty good job of editing it out, but you can still catch glimpses of them. Anything they have done on the public roads in the last few years has had a police presence (Blocking traffic, escort, shutting down roads, etc.)
There was an episode I think last season where they mentioned how they have to have police escort for anything they do on the roads.
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Old 06-14-2013, 05:15 PM   #24
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Generally speaking, any car will be the most fuel efficient per mile in the topmost gear, at the lowest RPMs that will keep it from stalling in that gear. Fuel economy is directly tied to engine RPMs, and how 'much' those engine RPMs push you through the air. So, the more gears, the faster the 'most efficient' speed is, except that you run into air resistance at a point that may push you down a gear or two.

As far as avoiding braking, sure. You want to keep your KE as high as possible, and if you have a lot of PE at the top of a hill, then at the bottom you'll have a lot of KE. Probably another tip for hypermiling is accelerate just enough (when possible) to coast over a hill when climbing it and then get all that KE back going down. As others point out, if you go over the top of a hill with a lot of KE, you may end up going quite fast and have to 'throw away' some of that energy (either via downshifting or breaking) on the way down. Electric cars with regenerative brakes can put some of that lost KE back into the system, whereas traditional brakes just turn it into heat.
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Old 06-14-2013, 07:56 PM   #25
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I don't see how the long road test proved anything. As a simple, but extreme, example, lets say the first 50 miles was mainly flat highway driving. The first run, they get exactly 50 miles out of their fuel allocation. The second run they start the hypermiling. They get past their 50 mile mark, but at the 51 mile mark the road turns into pure uphill and for some reason it's bumper to bumper. They might get 5 extra miles before running out of fuel.

So,did they only get 10% better mileage? Of course not. It could have been double. It could have been triple. The only way to tell is under identical conditions for the next 50 miles as they had on the first 50 miles.

And with real traffic, you couldn't even guarantee that the first 50 miles of the trip were done under identical conditions. Either run could have had more traffic or different wind conditions.

Finally, while they tried to follow hypermiling theory, none of them were well practiced experts. What they should have done was have one of those lunatic hypermiling nuts run the second leg at the same time the MB gang ran the first leg. And compare the fuel consumed at a measured distance rather than how much further they went.

As always, this show is more about fun than true scientific proff.
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Old 06-14-2013, 08:23 PM   #26
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They also said these methods were legal and going 45 on a posted 65 freeway (as many of those stretches were) is at the very edge of legality, if not safety. I would never recommend anybody drive at that speed on a California freeway unless conditions are such that you really shouldn't go any faster, such as during a rainstorm, and I certainly wouldn't go into the left lane like Tory did in one shot.

Turning off the engine at traffic lights has already been proven and has been incorporated into auto stop-start systems. When I was in Europe last year, I rented a BMW with auto stop-start and I didn't find it to be a problem at all. The car started right up with almost no delay once I took my foot off the brake.

They could have also controlled their speed on the downhill stretches by simply downshifting the transmission and taking advantage of engine braking.
Volkswagen had dabbled with auto-stop/start systems for over 30 years, the 1981 Derby (EU Polo saloon) came with such a system in it's 1.1L 'Formel E' model.
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Old 06-14-2013, 08:27 PM   #27
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Finally, while they tried to follow hypermiling theory, none of them were well practiced experts.
Yep. I may be smeeking but the ep didn't really show how well they were hypermiling. For example, if they were approaching a red light, they should've shut off their engine at some point before the red light and just coasted to the intersection.

I'm really hoping they can get hypermiling experts like Wayne Gerdes (http://www.motherjones.com/politics/...cord-beat-punk and http://web.archive.org/web/200902260...220/550484.stm) who runs cleanmpg.com for a redo. I think w/the proper instrumentation, he might be able to achieve 2x the mileage.
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The 2012 Camry Hybrid has electronic air conditioning and water pump.
Yeah, all Toyota hybrids from the 04 model year and beyond have an electric AC compressor. AC works just fine when the engine's off.

On 2012+ model year Toyota hybrids, water pump become electric too so AC, power steering and water pump are all electric and there are no longer any "drive" belts.
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Old 06-14-2013, 08:31 PM   #28
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There's a big difference between a car with auto stop/start and doing it yourself. Most cars require the car to be in park to engage the starter. So it's stop at the light, put car in park, turn off, wait for light to change, start car, put car in drive, move car.

That's a lot to go through at every traffic light. A car that had the function is simply stop, wait, go.
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Old 06-14-2013, 08:35 PM   #29
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There's a big difference between a car with auto stop/start and doing it yourself. Most cars require the car to be in park to engage the starter. So it's stop at the light, put car in park, turn off, wait for light to change, start car, put car in drive, move car.

That's a lot to go through at every traffic light. A car that had the function is simply stop, wait, go.
Umm, non-hybrid automatics I've driven can be restarted while in neutral.

When I had my Z and learned about hypermiling, I'd FAS into a parking space (while still in D) and coast in. Once I'm stopped, I then shift to park.

Most automatic drivers pull into a space, stop, shift to park, then shut off the car. There's a whole bunch of wasted engine runtime in there.

Wayne talks about FASing into a parking spot at http://www.cleanmpg.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1510 under "Potential Parking". I generally tried that too, if I could find such a higher spot.

For the traffic light, if it looks almost certain they will have to stop, they should FAS then coast in D or N. Once they've stopped, from N, they can restart and go to D.

And yes, I have a Prius so I've been enjoying the engine seamlessly shutting down and starting up for over 7 years. I've also driven other hybrids and some BMW 3-series cars w/auto start stop.

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Old 06-14-2013, 09:06 PM   #30
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As always, this show is more about fun than true scientific proff.
Agreed. I have most of the same objections as you to their scientific method. Sometimes Jamie and Adam do a decent job, and sometimes they have some serious holes in their methods. Tory, Kari, and Grant almost always have serious holes in their methods -- they are mostly in it just for fun.
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