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Old 06-12-2013, 05:19 PM   #211
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...And maybe the books provide a better explanation of this, but most of my conceptual knowledge of the wall comes from the way it's depicted in the opening credits of the TV show. What is to stop wildlings and anyone else from just getting in a boat on the north side of the wall and then sailing around the wall and landing somewhere on the south side?
Didn't Mace's wilding army with Jon Snow mention boating around the wall? I think the sea is a thousand miles away.
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Old 06-12-2013, 05:33 PM   #212
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I know he writes slow, but not THAT slow.
Well, Game of Thrones was published in 1996. Oz started in 1997, and The Sopranos in 1999, so it's a pretty safe bet that when Martin started writing GoT, a TV series of that scope and intensity on HBO (or anyplace) would have been (cough) inconceivable.
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Old 06-12-2013, 05:38 PM   #213
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And maybe the books provide a better explanation of this, but most of my conceptual knowledge of the wall comes from the way it's depicted in the opening credits of the TV show. What is to stop wildlings and anyone else from just getting in a boat on the north side of the wall and then sailing around the wall and landing somewhere on the south side?
The books do talk about it somewhat. Mild spoilers below (but not of any TV-content or future events in the books).

Spoiler:
The eastern border of The Wall ends at the Bay of Seals, which is patrolled by the Night's Watch who are garrisoned at Eastwatch-By-The-Sea, one of the three castles currently inhabited. They patrol the Bay in boats, but it is commonly known that wildlings do slip by from time to time. As long as it's a small group, the Watch isn't too concerned about that.

The western border of The Wall is in the Frostfangs Mountains, where a river called The Gorge flows in the Bay of Ice. The castle there is called Shadow Tower, and it is the other Watch-inhabited castle at the time of the GoT (there are 19 castles in all, but only 3 are manned by this time: the two border castles as well as Castle Black in the middle).

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Old 06-12-2013, 05:57 PM   #214
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Assuming they are following the book here, they are now at the Nightfort, one of the many uninhabited castles along The Wall. Although they didn't really show either Sam/Gilly or Bran/Hodor/Jojen/Meera looking at (or even approaching) The Wall, which would have given us a visual clue as to where they are.

Sam/Gilly came in through The Black Gate which is an enchanted gate which will only open when member of the Night's Watch recites a vow in front of it. So it doesn't really matter if it's secret or not, I suppose.
They only mentioned the Nightfort and going there like a hundred (well, maybe a few) times.

Seemed obvious to me where they were and I haven't read any of the books.
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Old 06-12-2013, 06:00 PM   #215
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I must have missed Bran/etc seeing The Wall. Thanks.

And, agreed, the Black Gate was a much cooler scene in the book, and would have been fun to film/watch. Wonder if they cut it for time/special effects budget?
I have a feeling they are downplaying the magic a bit on the show. Not sure why but I just get that feeling. When we aren't looking at dragons or birthing a big black shadow thing, there is little that cannot be explained without magic. Even the undead north of the wall are almost non-magical.

I have no problem with that. It makes the series a bit more grounded. More adventure and less Lord of the Rings.
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Old 06-12-2013, 06:05 PM   #216
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Didn't Mace's wilding army with Jon Snow mention boating around the wall? I think the sea is a thousand miles away.
Also, Osha said she came from north of the wall via a boat.

Sometimes I don't think people actually watch the show. Especially when something like this is already addressed.


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Old 06-12-2013, 06:30 PM   #217
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I know GRRM has experience in TV writing. But he seems to think Benioff and Weiss are going to be able to film every minute story in books 4 and 5 and that will buy him enough time to finish books 6 and 7. I don't think he realizes that in order to make the show palatable for average viewers who haven't read the books, most of that material will need to be cut and thus those two books would take only 2-3 seasons of TV.

In other words, I think we're saying the same thing.



That shot we see of Bran and Hodor walking down the tunnel into the bright light is them walking toward the opening in the North side of the wall. If the opening is that big and lets in that much light, then it really can't be all that secret. But I already explained above why it doesn't really matter and was just a necessity for TV.
I'm pretty sure that you have the idea in your head that he cares. I'm not so sure that he does. The HBO money is already in the coffers, along with that from the increased book sales.

I'm pretty sure that he's sitting back, licking the leftover broth, beer, and other stuff from his beer.
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Old 06-12-2013, 07:15 PM   #218
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It occurs to me that Tywin is not teaching Joffrey anything to make him a better king. He's just working around him. No one is educating Joffrey -- he wouldn't stand for a teacher unless Tywin forced him.
Didn't they have some scenes in season 1 where Cercei talked strategy and how to be a king with Joffrey. Of course, she's not the best source, but I think she tried. Tywin probably wasn't welcome too much when Robert was still alive and Joffrey was little.

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Thanks for that. Very interesting. So that means that Bran and Hodor won't be able to use that gate to get back across the Wall, if they eventually find the three-eyed raven and then need to come back.

.
I don't really see them coming back, but maybe they could find Uncle Benjen or some other long lost Crow to escort them. Or Bran could warg into a raven and come over and let them know to come let him in.

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I'm pretty sure that he's sitting back, licking the leftover broth, beer, and other stuff from his beer.
Somebody needs to kidnap this guy and trade him beer and food for pages.
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Old 06-12-2013, 07:36 PM   #219
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Thinking about it now, who was preparing Jeoffrey to be a king?

I believe in this world and the class level Jeoffrey lives in, the jobs of raising the children go to the mother, and the maester acts as a teacher of sorts, and when they get older they spend a lot of time with the (if a boy) master of arms or (if a girl) the septa.

At Winterfell Maester Luwin was seen spending a lot of time with Bran and Rickon, and Jaime has said his father Tywin made him spend a lot of time with the maesters learning all those fancy words.
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Old 06-12-2013, 09:24 PM   #220
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I have a feeling they are downplaying the magic a bit on the show.
The magic is kept low key in the books as well. I don't think they are doing it significantly differently on the show.
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Old 06-12-2013, 09:48 PM   #221
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Joffrey is the Lannister's only legitimate claim to the throne. I think that unless/until there is another Lannister who could have a claim, then Tywin will suffer through with Joffrey. Maybe that's why Tywin is so adamant that Tyrion hurry and get Sansa preggers. Maybe then there would be a legitimate way to get rid of Joffrey and still have a Lannister be able to make a claim to the throne.
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If Joffrey is considered to be a legitimate Lannister claim to the thrown, then in Joffrey's....ummm...."absense", the legitimate Lannister claim would be Joffrey's eldest son (if he can get it up for something other than murder long enough to have one), followed by Tommen (Cersei's youngest son). In either case, I think the case to be made would be that Tywin (or whoever he chooses, if he doesn't want the position) would serve as protector of the realm until the new king came of age.
Tywin strikes me as a master long-term planner.

And if he's not bothering to train J, especially about war when they're in one, then J must not be his intended king in the end. He may consider J hopeless or have some other plan. It doesn't keep the family in charge to leave an idiot-J on the throne after Tywin's death. (And some other Lannisters should be smart enough to realize this.)

If Joffrey's or Tyrion's future son or Tommen is his intended, he needs backup if he's not alive long enough to run things, train and protect him. I guess Tyrion could do that as a protector. Or he's got something else in mind that we haven't figured out.
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Old 06-12-2013, 10:44 PM   #222
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Tywin strikes me as a master long-term planner.
That may be, but Tywin also has some serious mental blocks, as demonstrated by how he thinks about Tyrion. Clearly he is not rational and practical about all things family related.
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Old 06-13-2013, 03:32 AM   #223
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Thinking about it now, who was preparing Jeoffrey to be a king?
That's one of the big problems. No one was teaching Joffrey to be king. Robert basically hated being king, and wasn't too fond of being a father either. Everyone else in the kid's life let him get away with anything he wanted.

Now, when someone like Tywin or Tyrion stands up to him, he throws a tantrum.
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Old 06-13-2013, 07:20 AM   #224
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Considering that Tywin is so busy planning the war that he doesn't even have time to leave the tower for meetings and makes everyone come to him, I doubt he has much time for teaching Joffrey (ignoring the fact that Joffrey is pretty much unteachable at this point).
IMO, moving the council meeting to the Tower had nothing to do with time. It was about POWER. The council meets close to the King's rooms. Tywin moved the meeting place next to his.
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Old 06-13-2013, 08:33 AM   #225
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Everyone just keep in mind that the only Lannister offspring with any claim to the throne are those through the Baratheon line. In other words, a child of Sansa and Tyrion would have no claim to the Iron throne. A child of Sansa and Tyrion would only give the Lannisters a legitimate heir to the North.

That means for the moment Joffrey --->Tommen ---> future sons of Joffrey, Tommen, Myrcella---->Stannis.
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Old 06-13-2013, 11:38 AM   #226
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Everyone just keep in mind that the only Lannister offspring with any claim to the throne are those through the Baratheon line. In other words, a child of Sansa and Tyrion would have no claim to the Iron throne. A child of Sansa and Tyrion would only give the Lannisters a legitimate heir to the North.

That means for the moment Joffrey --->Tommen ---> future sons of Joffrey, Tommen, Myrcella---->Stannis.
Provided you believe (or pretend to believe) that Joffrey, Tommen & Myrcella are Baratheons, not the little inbred bastards that they are.
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Old 06-13-2013, 11:42 AM   #227
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Provided you believe (or pretend to believe) that Joffrey, Tommen & Myrcella are Baratheons, not the little inbred bastards that they are.
I think it's still commonly thought that Joffrey & his siblings are Baratheons, despite rumors to the contrary.
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Old 06-13-2013, 11:54 AM   #228
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Everyone just keep in mind that the only Lannister offspring with any claim to the throne are those through the Baratheon line.
And the Baratheon claim to the throne is due to Robert and his buddies kicking butt of the previous king. Whatta system.
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Old 06-13-2013, 12:02 PM   #229
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And the Baratheon claim to the throne is due to Robert and his buddies kicking butt of the previous king. Whatta system.
It's the system that has been going on in real life since the dawn of man!
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Old 06-13-2013, 12:16 PM   #230
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And the Baratheon claim to the throne is due to Robert and his buddies kicking butt of the previous king. Whatta system.
Actually there is a little more to it than that.

The Baratheon house is an offshoot of the Targaryans. So there is a royal blood link.
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Old 06-13-2013, 05:12 PM   #231
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That may be, but Tywin also has some serious mental blocks, as demonstrated by how he thinks about Tyrion. Clearly he is not rational and practical about all things family related.
I did notice one thing in the finale, Tyrion seemed to be the one that Tywin wanted to gloat to over the death of Robb. I got the feeling that Tywin knew that Tyrion was the only one shrewd enough to fully appreciate it. I think there is some hidden respect between them.
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Old 06-13-2013, 05:40 PM   #232
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I did notice one thing in the finale, Tyrion seemed to be the one that Tywin wanted to gloat to over the death of Robb. I got the feeling that Tywin knew that Tyrion was the only one shrewd enough to fully appreciate it. I think there is some hidden respect between them.
It must be very hidden. I think the way Tywin treats Tyrion is abominable. He's awful to everyone, but Tyrion definitely gets the worst treatment.

I wish someone would off Joffrey (sp?) already. He's not even fun to hate. He's just annoying. Every time he's on screen I want to FF.
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Old 06-13-2013, 06:06 PM   #233
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Tywin despises Tyrion because Tyrion killed Tywin's wife. However, Tywin recognizes that Tyrion is the kid that inherited his brains.

Jaime is (was) a good knight, and is Tywin's eldest son, but he's not terribly bright.

Cersei is not as shrewd or as smart as she thinks she is. And she's a chick.

Tyrion has Tywin's brains.
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Old 06-13-2013, 08:40 PM   #234
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It must be very hidden. I think the way Tywin treats Tyrion is abominable. He's awful to everyone, but Tyrion definitely gets the worst treatment.

I wish someone would off Joffrey (sp?) already. He's not even fun to hate. He's just annoying. Every time he's on screen I want to FF.
I thought he was a lot of fun in the small council scene. I was laughing out loud at his glee and and then his reactions to Tywin.
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Old 06-13-2013, 09:13 PM   #235
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I did notice one thing in the finale, Tyrion seemed to be the one that Tywin wanted to gloat to over the death of Robb. I got the feeling that Tywin knew that Tyrion was the only one shrewd enough to fully appreciate it. I think there is some hidden respect between them.
I'm not understanding your point here. You think Tywin thought that Tyrion would appreciate that Robb was dead? I think if Tyrion had his way, he'd gladly have granted Robb title of King in the North in order to end the war and return things to the carefree life he lived before. Tyrion may appreciate that Robb's death is a major strategic win for the Lannisters, but I don't think he would be happy about it.
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Old 06-13-2013, 09:14 PM   #236
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I thought he was a lot of fun in the small council scene. I was laughing out loud at his glee and and then his reactions to Tywin.
He really is just a one-note character, though. The cowardly psychopath. He's gotten to the point where he either needs to undergo some personal growth, or die a horrible death.

(Or maybe undergo some personal growth, become a likable person...and THEN die a horrible death! Arya can become queen, not notice that he's become a good person, and have his head chopped off!)
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Old 06-14-2013, 07:08 AM   #237
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He really is just a one-note character, though. The cowardly psychopath. He's gotten to the point where he either needs to undergo some personal growth, or die a horrible death.

(Or maybe undergo some personal growth, become a likable person...and THEN die a horrible death! Arya can become queen, not notice that he's become a good person, and have his head chopped off!)
If how the show has gone so far is any indication, Arya will become queen by marrying Joffrey!
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Old 06-14-2013, 07:38 AM   #238
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If how the show has gone so far is any indication, Arya will become queen by marrying Joffrey!
And then killing him! Horribly!

Or she'll fall in love with him, marry him, and then Zombie Ned Stark will chop off his head!
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Old 06-14-2013, 09:41 AM   #239
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I did notice one thing in the finale, Tyrion seemed to be the one that Tywin wanted to gloat to over the death of Robb. I got the feeling that Tywin knew that Tyrion was the only one shrewd enough to fully appreciate it. I think there is some hidden respect between them.
I didn't see that at all. Tywin simply kept him around to talk to him about those babies he's supposed to be working on. Before he could, Tyrion said something, and everything Tywin said was just a response to each thing Tyrion said. If anything, I'd say they were at odds with each other on every point discussed.
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Old 06-14-2013, 09:43 AM   #240
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In the final scene of the saga, Joffrey should be taking a bath in the dragons' blood while feasting on Dany's boiled head.
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