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Old 06-12-2013, 10:17 AM   #181
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I am geographically confused about something.

Sam used the dragonglass to kill one of The Others, at which point he and Gilly were (I thought) still north of, and trying to make their way to, The Wall. Bran & company were (I thought) holed up somewhere near, but south of, The Wall. If Sam & Gilly were trying to get to The Wall from the north, how/why did they run into Bran & Co. south of The Wall?
I though they were holed up in one of the Nights Watch castles on (at?) the wall. The story Bran tells is of the Nights Watch cook.
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Old 06-12-2013, 10:22 AM   #182
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I haven't watched the episode but from what I gathered reading here (I think) Sam knew of a secret passage under the wall and it came out where Bran was. Which I assume will come in handy since Bran is trying to get to the other side to continue his journey with Ferb.
Yes, that's correct. We found out about that tunnel in that scene where Sam was talking about it and Gilly said "wow, you're like a wizard".

And yes, I believe we saw in this episode that Sam showed Bran the tunnel and you see Hodor wheeling him down it. At least I think we saw that. I'm not paying the most careful attention to that part. For all of you complaining about the torture scenes, I'm 10 times as interested in the torture as I am in anything going on with Bran. Heck, I'm more interested in checking up on how Duck Sauce is doing in that vault than I am in Bran. I'm even more interested in what Hodor is up to than I am in Bran.
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Old 06-12-2013, 10:29 AM   #183
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Agreed. Just because the reservoir is internal doesn't mean that most of the plumbing is. There are other plumbing connections externally that are very important.
Please enlighten me as to what all of these very important external connections are.
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Old 06-12-2013, 10:41 AM   #184
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and that "secret" tunnel didn't look very well hidden at all as Bran et al were going through it...
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Old 06-12-2013, 11:58 AM   #185
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You are assuming they cover all te written material. That may not be a good assumption.
Based on that article, it's GRRM that is assuming this. He says they have lots of material to cover, so he doesn't think they'll catch him, but what he doesn't realize is that much of it probably doesn't translate very well to the screen, and the art of writing a TV episode is very different than the art of writing a novel. If they want the TV show to actually be a good TV show, they'll have to do a ton of condensing and leave a lot of characters out, and then they'll quickly be caught up to the books.

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and that "secret" tunnel didn't look very well hidden at all as Bran et al were going through it...
I think that was simply a necessity of filming. The opening to the tunnel on the north side is supposed to be secret. So presumably it wouldn't just be a big opening with light streaming in. But having Bran and Hodor walking into a dark tunnel wouldn't look very good on screen, nor would people realize where they were going. So it was just a bit of cinematic efficiency to quickly convey what was going on in a well-framed shot rather than making the shot more realistic yet less visually pleasing and requiring extra dialogue to explain.
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Old 06-12-2013, 12:01 PM   #186
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Also the tunnel doesn't need to be as secret on this side of the wall. The wall is to keep the North out, not the South in.
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Old 06-12-2013, 12:03 PM   #187
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Also the tunnel doesn't need to be as secret on this side of the wall. The wall is to keep the North out, not the South in.
Except people from this side of the wall go to that side of the wall. If this side isn't secret, that side won't be secret for very long.
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Old 06-12-2013, 12:03 PM   #188
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...but what he doesn't realize is that much of it probably doesn't translate very well to the screen, and the art of writing a TV episode is very different than the art of writing a novel.
Actually, what you do not seem to realize is that Martin was and is a TV writer. He wrote for several TV series in the 80s, most notably Beauty and the Beast, and he writes an episode each season for GoT.

No, the problem is not that Martin does not realize what is necessary to write for TV. The problem is that Martin does not realize that a lot of what he wrote in books 4 and 5 is just boring, and should have been edited out of the books, and will certainly be skipped for TV.
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Old 06-12-2013, 12:04 PM   #189
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Except people from this side of the wall go to that side of the wall. If this side isn't secret, that side won't be secret for very long.
And we were seeing the North side, not the south. :shrug:
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Old 06-12-2013, 12:07 PM   #190
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Except people from this side of the wall go to that side of the wall. If this side isn't secret, that side won't be secret for very long.
And the people on the south side, camped right on top of the entrance, did not even know the passage was there until Sam appeared.
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Old 06-12-2013, 12:15 PM   #191
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Actually, what you do not seem to realize is that Martin was and is a TV writer. He wrote for several TV series in the 80s, most notably Beauty and the Beast, and he writes an episode each season for GoT.

No, the problem is not that Martin does not realize what is necessary to write for TV. The problem is that Martin does not realize that a lot of what he wrote in books 4 and 5 is just boring, and should have been edited out of the books, and will certainly be skipped for TV.
I know GRRM has experience in TV writing. But he seems to think Benioff and Weiss are going to be able to film every minute story in books 4 and 5 and that will buy him enough time to finish books 6 and 7. I don't think he realizes that in order to make the show palatable for average viewers who haven't read the books, most of that material will need to be cut and thus those two books would take only 2-3 seasons of TV.

In other words, I think we're saying the same thing.

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Also the tunnel doesn't need to be as secret on this side of the wall. The wall is to keep the North out, not the South in.
That shot we see of Bran and Hodor walking down the tunnel into the bright light is them walking toward the opening in the North side of the wall. If the opening is that big and lets in that much light, then it really can't be all that secret. But I already explained above why it doesn't really matter and was just a necessity for TV.
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Old 06-12-2013, 12:19 PM   #192
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I don't think he realizes that in order to make the show palatable for average viewers who haven't read the books, most of that material will need to be cut and thus those two books would take only 2-3 seasons of TV.

In other words, I think we're saying the same thing.
Close, but not quite the same thing.

Most of the viewers who have read the books (that have commented in the book thread) want the show to skip large parts of books 4 and 5 as well. The problem is not about how much good book material can or cannot be adapted to TV. The problem is that there is not as much good book material in books 4 and 5 as Martin seems to think there is.

In my opinion, books 4 and 5 could have been combined into one book, cutting out more than half of the material, and the combined book still would not have as much good story in it as book 3 does. Season 4 should mostly cover the second half of book 3. I hope that season 5 covers both books 4 and 5 (and perhaps even the beginning of book 6). Then the TV writers may have to start writing their own conclusion (with Martin's outline) in seasons 6 & 7, since I doubt Martin will be finished with book 6, let alone book 7, in time.

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Old 06-12-2013, 12:35 PM   #193
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For those that like to look up characters, plots, genealogy of GoT without spoilers, This website:

http://towerofthehand.com/

Does a great job in that the first time you go there, you set your scope, how much of the show you have watched or have read. No spoilers that way.
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Old 06-12-2013, 12:54 PM   #194
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Actually, what you do not seem to realize is that Martin was and is a TV writer. He wrote for several TV series in the 80s, most notably Beauty and the Beast, and he writes an episode each season for GoT.
In fact, one of the great ironies of GoT (the books) is that Martin started the series when he quit Hollywood, in frustration at all the things you can't do on TV.

His intent was to write unfilmable books.

(And of course when he started the series, it would have been almost inconceivable that a decent TV show could ever be made from it, both in terms of content in a pre-HBO time, and budget in a pre-CGI time.)
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Old 06-12-2013, 01:20 PM   #195
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(And of course when he started the series, it would have been almost inconceivable that a decent TV show could ever be made from it, both in terms of content in a pre-HBO time, and budget in a pre-CGI time.)
I don't think that means what you think it means.

Sorry couldn't resist.

As far as the secret tunnel, I haven't seen the dang episode yet because my wife likes to safe it for the weekend so any theory I had was purely hypothesis.
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Old 06-12-2013, 01:40 PM   #196
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The solution to the show catching up to the books is, clearly, to have Martin write Season 6 and 7 of the TV series and then adapt that into the book later. He would have to do it with Benioff and Weiss standing over his shoulder, though, otherwise those seasons would be 100 episodes each.
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Old 06-12-2013, 02:17 PM   #197
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I'm not sure I'd bother reading books 6 and 7 if the show preceded them.
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Old 06-12-2013, 02:26 PM   #198
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I am geographically confused about something.

Sam used the dragonglass to kill one of The Others, at which point he and Gilly were (I thought) still north of, and trying to make their way to, The Wall. Bran & company were (I thought) holed up somewhere near, but south of, The Wall. If Sam & Gilly were trying to get to The Wall from the north, how/why did they run into Bran & Co. [i]south[i] of The Wall?
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I haven't watched the episode but from what I gathered reading here (I think) Sam knew of a secret passage under the wall and it came out where Bran was. Which I assume will come in handy since Bran is trying to get to the other side to continue his journey with Ferb.
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As to Sam and Bran, Bran's team was holed up in the Nightfort. Sam also happened to be aiming for the Nightfort because he knew of a secret passage underneath the wall that led to it. They just happened to get there the same night. So when Sam reached the south side of the wall, there was Bran and team ready to go north.
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I though they were holed up in one of the Nights Watch castles on (at?) the wall. The story Bran tells is of the Nights Watch cook.
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Yes, that's correct. We found out about that tunnel in that scene where Sam was talking about it and Gilly said "wow, you're like a wizard".

And yes, I believe we saw in this episode that Sam showed Bran the tunnel and you see Hodor wheeling him down it. At least I think we saw that. I'm not paying the most careful attention to that part. For all of you complaining about the torture scenes, I'm 10 times as interested in the torture as I am in anything going on with Bran. Heck, I'm more interested in checking up on how Duck Sauce is doing in that vault than I am in Bran. I'm even more interested in what Hodor is up to than I am in Bran.
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and that "secret" tunnel didn't look very well hidden at all as Bran et al were going through it...
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I think that was simply a necessity of filming. The opening to the tunnel on the north side is supposed to be secret. So presumably it wouldn't just be a big opening with light streaming in. But having Bran and Hodor walking into a dark tunnel wouldn't look very good on screen, nor would people realize where they were going. So it was just a bit of cinematic efficiency to quickly convey what was going on in a well-framed shot rather than making the shot more realistic yet less visually pleasing and requiring extra dialogue to explain.
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Also the tunnel doesn't need to be as secret on this side of the wall. The wall is to keep the North out, not the South in.
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Except people from this side of the wall go to that side of the wall. If this side isn't secret, that side won't be secret for very long.
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Originally Posted by Anubys View Post
And we were seeing the North side, not the south. :shrug:
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And the people on the south side, camped right on top of the entrance, did not even know the passage was there until Sam appeared.
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That shot we see of Bran and Hodor walking down the tunnel into the bright light is them walking toward the opening in the North side of the wall. If the opening is that big and lets in that much light, then it really can't be all that secret. But I already explained above why it doesn't really matter and was just a necessity for TV.
Assuming they are following the book here, they are now at the Nightfort, one of the many uninhabited castles along The Wall. Although they didn't really show either Sam/Gilly or Bran/Hodor/Jojen/Meera looking at (or even approaching) The Wall, which would have given us a visual clue as to where they are.

Sam/Gilly came in through The Black Gate which is an enchanted gate which will only open when member of the Night's Watch recites a vow in front of it. So it doesn't really matter if it's secret or not, I suppose.
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Old 06-12-2013, 02:47 PM   #199
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Final Facebook Game of Thrones page,

http://www.happyplace.com/24434/game...n-3-episode-10
Thanks for posting. Those are always gold.

Loved this part:


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Old 06-12-2013, 02:58 PM   #200
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Assuming they are following the book here, they are now at the Nightfort, one of the many uninhabited castles along The Wall. Although they didn't really show either Sam/Gilly or Bran/Hodor/Jojen/Meera looking at (or even approaching) The Wall, which would have given us a visual clue as to where they are.

Sam/Gilly came in through The Black Gate which is an enchanted gate which will only open when member of the Night's Watch recites a vow in front of it. So it doesn't really matter if it's secret or not, I suppose.
Thanks to all for helping me out here. I completely forgot that they were at the Nightfort. I've read the book, and I even remembered the enchanted gate, but for whatever reason I totally spazzed out on the fact that they're AT THE WALL already. Duh.
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Old 06-12-2013, 03:01 PM   #201
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They showed Sam and Gilly looking at the wall in episode nine, and Bran and team saw the wall in this episode before they settled in at the Nightfort.

As to the secret tunnel, I am disappointed in how the show handled it. The big thing about the tunnel wasn't that there was a tunnel, (minor tidbit from the book)

Spoiler:
it was that the gate for the tunnel was a weirwood tree that could only be "opened" by a man of the Night's Watch. It was a magical gate. The show skipped this completely. The weirwood's mouth would open wide enough for a person to walk through, and the only way to open it was for a man of the Night's Watch to recite his vows to the weirwood.


The above is a scene from the book which was not in the show. For people who want to avoid real spoilers but want to know things about how the books portrayed an event I recommend opening it. It will help explain the tunnel a little bit better than the show did.
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Old 06-12-2013, 03:18 PM   #202
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I must have missed Bran/etc seeing The Wall. Thanks.

And, agreed, the Black Gate was a much cooler scene in the book, and would have been fun to film/watch. Wonder if they cut it for time/special effects budget?
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Old 06-12-2013, 03:23 PM   #203
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It occurs to me that Tywin is not teaching Joffrey anything to make him a better king. He's just working around him. No one is educating Joffrey -- he wouldn't stand for a teacher unless Tywin forced him.

If Tywin is all about the Lannister family, what's his master plan for after his own death? 10 years from now Tywin dies and Joffrey-the-idiot is the unrestricted King?

(Maybe Joffrey as King isn't his final goal.)
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Old 06-12-2013, 03:24 PM   #204
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Benioff is a great writer himself. City of Thieves is one of my favorite books.
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Old 06-12-2013, 03:42 PM   #205
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They showed Sam and Gilly looking at the wall in episode nine, and Bran and team saw the wall in this episode before they settled in at the Nightfort.

As to the secret tunnel, I am disappointed in how the show handled it. The big thing about the tunnel wasn't that there was a tunnel, (minor tidbit from the book)

Spoiler:
it was that the gate for the tunnel was a weirwood tree that could only be "opened" by a man of the Night's Watch. It was a magical gate. The show skipped this completely. The weirwood's mouth would open wide enough for a person to walk through, and the only way to open it was for a man of the Night's Watch to recite his vows to the weirwood.


The above is a scene from the book which was not in the show. For people who want to avoid real spoilers but want to know things about how the books portrayed an event I recommend opening it. It will help explain the tunnel a little bit better than the show did.
Thanks for that. Very interesting. So that means that Bran and Hodor won't be able to use that gate to get back across the Wall, if they eventually find the three-eyed raven and then need to come back.

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It occurs to me that Tywin is not teaching Joffrey anything to make him a better king. He's just working around him. No one is educating Joffrey -- he wouldn't stand for a teacher unless Tywin forced him.

If Tywin is all about the Lannister family, what's his master plan for after his own death? 10 years from now Tywin dies and Joffrey-the-idiot is the unrestricted King?

(Maybe Joffrey as King isn't his final goal.)
Joffrey is the Lannister's only legitimate claim to the throne. I think that unless/until there is another Lannister who could have a claim, then Tywin will suffer through with Joffrey. Maybe that's why Tywin is so adamant that Tyrion hurry and get Sansa preggers. Maybe then there would be a legitimate way to get rid of Joffrey and still have a Lannister be able to make a claim to the throne.
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Old 06-12-2013, 03:53 PM   #206
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It occurs to me that Tywin is not teaching Joffrey anything to make him a better king. He's just working around him. No one is educating Joffrey -- he wouldn't stand for a teacher unless Tywin forced him.

If Tywin is all about the Lannister family, what's his master plan for after his own death? 10 years from now Tywin dies and Joffrey-the-idiot is the unrestricted King?

(Maybe Joffrey as King isn't his final goal.)
Considering that Tywin is so busy planning the war that he doesn't even have time to leave the tower for meetings and makes everyone come to him, I doubt he has much time for teaching Joffrey (ignoring the fact that Joffrey is pretty much unteachable at this point).


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Joffrey is the Lannister's only legitimate claim to the throne. I think that unless/until there is another Lannister who could have a claim, then Tywin will suffer through with Joffrey. Maybe that's why Tywin is so adamant that Tyrion hurry and get Sansa preggers. Maybe then there would be a legitimate way to get rid of Joffrey and still have a Lannister be able to make a claim to the throne.
If Joffrey is considered to be a legitimate Lannister claim to the thrown, then in Joffrey's....ummm...."absense", the legitimate Lannister claim would be Joffrey's eldest son (if he can get it up for something other than murder long enough to have one), followed by Tommen (Cersei's youngest son). In either case, I think the case to be made would be that Tywin (or whoever he chooses, if he doesn't want the position) would serve as protector of the realm until the new king came of age.
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Old 06-12-2013, 03:55 PM   #207
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(And of course when he started the series, it would have been almost inconceivable that a decent TV show could ever be made from it, both in terms of content in a pre-HBO time, and budget in a pre-CGI time.)
I know he writes slow, but not THAT slow.
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Old 06-12-2013, 03:59 PM   #208
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They showed Sam and Gilly looking at the wall in episode nine, and Bran and team saw the wall in this episode before they settled in at the Nightfort.
I could swear that Bran and his crew were showing walking towards the fort/castle. Yes, the wall was there too, but the shot showed the fort/castle in the distance as they walked up the hillside/cliffside to it. I remember thinking that it was kind of odd to have such steep hills on the south side of the fort/castle if it's all supposed to be flat land that people built an ice wall on.
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Old 06-12-2013, 04:06 PM   #209
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Old 06-12-2013, 04:12 PM   #210
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I could swear that Bran and his crew were showing walking towards the fort/castle. Yes, the wall was there too, but the shot showed the fort/castle in the distance as they walked up the hillside/cliffside to it. I remember thinking that it was kind of odd to have such steep hills on the south side of the fort/castle if it's all supposed to be flat land that people built an ice wall on.
When we saw Samwell and Gilly approaching the Wall from the north side, it also sloped up quite a bit before the slope met the wall. If you were an engineer and were going to build a massive wall like they did, wouldn't you choose the highest point you could find and then build on top of that, rather than start in a valley or on some flat plains?

And maybe the books provide a better explanation of this, but most of my conceptual knowledge of the wall comes from the way it's depicted in the opening credits of the TV show. What is to stop wildlings and anyone else from just getting in a boat on the north side of the wall and then sailing around the wall and landing somewhere on the south side?
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