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Old 01-02-2013, 05:15 PM   #1
Evilmumrah
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MoCA Setup

I have been trying to get my new Actiontec MoCA adapters to work and it just dawned on me that my cable modem and my cable TV are on separate lines. Which means they won't work together. Since my whole point here was to try to avoid rewiring my house in any way, shape or form --- what the heck am I supposed to do now? And bear in mind that I am not any sort of electrician or wiring expert. I have a Premier 4 in one room and a Premier in another and neither one is in the same room as my modem/router. Am I doomed to go back to my powerline adapters? Thanks.
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Old 01-02-2013, 06:09 PM   #2
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Premiere 4 has built-in MoCa adapter, but the 2 tuner Premiere does not.

At the cable modem and router end, there should be a Moca adapter there, splitter with 1 side to modem, other to Moca, ethernet port of Moca to router LAN port.

You would also need a Moca adapter on the 2 tuner Premiere with splitter on coax, 1 side Cable input, other Moca, Ethernet to Tivo ethernet port.

Premiere 4 just needs Moca enabled. (Not sure if it needs another Moca adapter at the modem/router end.)
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Old 01-02-2013, 06:30 PM   #3
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Premiere 4 has built-in MoCa adapter, but the 2 tuner Premiere does not.

At the cable modem and router end, there should be a Moca adapter there, splitter with 1 side to modem, other to Moca, ethernet port of Moca to router LAN port.

You would also need a Moca adapter on the 2 tuner Premiere with splitter on coax, 1 side Cable input, other Moca, Ethernet to Tivo ethernet port.

Premiere 4 just needs Moca enabled. (Not sure if it needs another Moca adapter at the modem/router end.)
Yes, I understand all that. My problem appears to be that the cable modem and the Tivo boxes are on separate cable lines. That is what I am trying to overcome.
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Old 01-02-2013, 06:35 PM   #4
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Does the cable coax come in from 1 location and split off from there?
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Old 01-02-2013, 08:47 PM   #5
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Does the cable coax come in from 1 location and split off from there?
I have no idea and its too flipping cold to go outside and find out at the moment.
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Old 01-03-2013, 03:50 AM   #6
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What do you mean they are on two different lines? At my house the modem is on a different line then my Premiere and it still works the two lines are really just split at the box on the side of the house and the signal passes through the splitter just fine. The only thing I can think of that would make it not work is if you either had too long of a run between the two devices (max is 300') or if you have a POE filter between them.

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Old 01-03-2013, 09:58 AM   #7
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MoCA works through passive splitters. It doesn't matter where on the coax your cable modem is connected, if it does not have its own built-in MoCA. The only thing that matters is that all the MoCA adapters and devices are connected by coax and don't have powered splitters that can block the MoCA signal.
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Old 01-03-2013, 12:22 PM   #8
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MoCA works through passive splitters. It doesn't matter where on the coax your cable modem is connected, if it does not have its own built-in MoCA. The only thing that matters is that all the MoCA adapters and devices are connected by coax and don't have powered splitters that can block the MoCA signal.
OK. I understand. There is no POE filter that I know about and nothing is further away from anything else than about fifteen feet. So then, when I plug in the adapter, why does the coax light not light up and why does the whole thing not work? If it makes any difference I have an Arris TG862 telephony modem/router.

Here's the deal. I unplug the coax that comes from the wall from the modem and plug it into the coax in on the adapter. Then I plug another coax in to the TV/STB out on the adapter and back in to the modem. Plug in the ethernet. Plug in the power. And, voila, the coax light does not come on and my phone doesn't work anymore. I go to the Premier 4 and get a C33 error message. Should I be splitting the signal between the modem and the adapter?

One thing I wonder about is that when the installers came and hooked up my cable they plugged an Ancon Class 2 transformer into an electrical outlet in my garage. My husband thinks they called it a signal booster.
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Old 01-03-2013, 12:35 PM   #9
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The modem and the adapter do not talk at all over coax. The modem just needs to talk to the cable company, and the MoCA adapter just needs to talk to other MoCA adapters/devices. Don't place the MoCA adapter in between the wall and the cable modem. Get a passive splitter, and split the connection from the wall to the modem and the MoCA adapter. Plug the ethernet from the MoCA adapter into the router. The Premiere 4 should start working. Connect another MoCA adapter to the coax at the regular TiVo Premiere, and plug its ethernet into the TiVo's ethernet. If it still doesn;t work, you may need a POE filter at the point where cable enters your home, but outside where the line splits to the cable modem and the other devices in your home.
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Old 01-03-2013, 12:44 PM   #10
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The modem and the adapter do not talk at all over coax. The modem just needs to talk to the cable company, and the MoCA adapter just needs to talk to other MoCA adapters/devices. Don't place the MoCA adapter in between the wall and the cable modem. Get a passive splitter, and split the connection from the wall to the modem and the MoCA adapter. Plug the ethernet from the MoCA adapter into the router. The Premiere 4 should start working. Connect another MoCA adapter to the coax at the regular TiVo Premiere, and plug its ethernet into the TiVo's ethernet. If it still doesn;t work, you may need a POE filter at the point where cable enters your home, but outside where the line splits to the cable modem and the other devices in your home.
I will try this and see what happens. Can I get a POE filter at Radio Shack?
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Old 01-03-2013, 01:05 PM   #11
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Nothing comes up at radioshack.com when I search for moca.
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Old 01-03-2013, 01:37 PM   #12
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I will try this and see what happens. Can I get a POE filter at Radio Shack?
I tried that also and got zilch. I guess I will have to order one. I restarted my Premier 4 and still get the C33 error. Next step will be to reboot my cable modem/router.
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Old 01-03-2013, 01:40 PM   #13
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Just as an aside, can I plug the adapter into a power strip? I know the powerline adapters say not to do that but I wonder about the MoCA adapters.
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Old 01-03-2013, 02:45 PM   #14
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Mine are both plugged into power strips and work fine.
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Old 01-11-2013, 05:04 PM   #15
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Question MoCA with amplifiers

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MoCA works through passive splitters. It doesn't matter where on the coax your cable modem is connected, if it does not have its own built-in MoCA. The only thing that matters is that all the MoCA adapters and devices are connected by coax and don't have powered splitters that can block the MoCA signal.
When you say powered splitters, I assume that also applies to amplifiers? I received an upgrade email to Premiere 4 for my S3 HD, with a free MoCA adapter, but don't know what else is needed. Currently have 2 S3 HDs with 1TB drives, and an old S2, connected with wireless n and g. transfers are terribly slow between HDs, so though MoCA might be an option - Premiere 4 would replace S2. Comcast cable in is split several times, and has powered amplifier. Tivo online says don't use an amplifier on MoCA, but good signal more important than faster transfers. Also not sure how to configure - how many MoCA adapters needed with Premiere 4 and 2 S3 HDs, are splitters needed, etc. - only plan to use for program transfer on S3s.

ANy advice wuold be hepful - the offer expires 1/25.

Thanks.
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Old 01-11-2013, 05:35 PM   #16
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Premiere 4 and XL4 have built-in Moca, so the included Moca adapter is for the modem/router end.
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Old 01-11-2013, 06:29 PM   #17
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MoCA with amplifiers

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Originally Posted by ThAbtO View Post
Premiere 4 and XL4 have built-in Moca, so the included Moca adapter is for the modem/router end.
Thanks.

Just went through all the wiring to make a diagram - cable in is split two ways - one to cable modem and on to router, and one to amplifier. Only one Tivo S3 HD is on the side of the cable modem, the others (S3 HD and Premiere 4) are on the side after the amplifier. So doesn't appear possible to get all Tivos on same coax side without amplifier someplace in between.

Will try to pull amplifier out to see if the config still works - Comcast has been doing some work so maybe their signal has improved - although I doubt it.

Still don't know how many MoCA adaptors required for the two S3 HDs. Tivo online seems to say that one required for each, if all I want to do is get faster transfers.

Thanks.
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Old 01-11-2013, 10:15 PM   #18
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Just went through all the wiring to make a diagram - cable in is split two ways - one to cable modem and on to router, and one to amplifier.
That makes no sense. Unless you have a Cable Gateway, the router would not have an RF input. If you do have a Cable Gateway, then there is no need for a Cable Modem.

Some CATV systems employ high value directional couplers (9 or 12 dB) prior to the Cable Modem. This generally works well, since the through leg of the DC suffers considerably less attenuation than would be the case with a splitter. It could definitely be problematical for MoCa, however. Do the MoCA adapters you are using have pass-through ports? If so, changing the DC + 2-way combo to a 3-way splitter may be the best course. If not, you may need a 4-way splitter.

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Only one Tivo S3 HD is on the side of the cable modem, the others (S3 HD and Premiere 4) are on the side after the amplifier.
This is not clear. Please explain your topology more throroughly.

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So doesn't appear possible to get all Tivos on same coax side without amplifier someplace in between.
Untrue. This is always possible.

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Will try to pull amplifier out to see if the config still works - Comcast has been doing some work so maybe their signal has improved - although I doubt it.
It is the responsibility of the CATV company to deliver signals of acceptable quality to an ordinary household. That statement seems rather vague and indefinite, but the specifications behind it are not. For the analog spectrum, the CATV company should deliver no less than 0 dBmV to a minimum of four TVs with at least 30 meters of drop cable in-line. The typical situation is somewhat better than that. Furthermore, the channel with the highest signal level must be no more than 9dB higher than that with the lowest level, and adjacent channels must be no more than 3 dB from one another. Depending on the CATV system specs, digital channels may be 5, 10, or 15 dB lower than analog channels in a flat spectrum. If the CATV company is delivering proper signals, then in all likelihood you do not need an amplifier, and indeed it is likely an amplifier will do little or no good, in any case.

Speaking broadly, an amplifier cannot make up for weak signals. It can only compensate for attenuation in a system, but it can only do so effectively if it is placed PRIOR to the attenuation. Once the signal is low, it is too late to do much about it. Specifically, it sounds to me like you have the amplifier in the wrong place, assuming it is necessary, at all. If the cable entry for your dwelling is less than 20 meters from the subscriber tap, your wall drops are less than 10 meters, and you have 4 or fewer TVs, then you should not need an amp. Instead, demand that Comcast fix their signal. If the total drop length on one or more of your sets is much more than 30 meters, or if you have more than 4 sets, then you may indeed need an amp. (My house does, but the maximum cable length is 40 meters and I have 10 outlets.) In that event, the amplifier needs to be placed as close to the entry point of your dwelling as possible, prior to any splitters. Not only is this the proper place for the amp, but you are going to be very hard pressed to get MoCA to work otherwise.

Note I do not generally recommend MoCA, although it generally has far fewer problems than wireless. In any case, however, getting your primary CATV feeds working properly will result in the best chance for good MoCA performance, such as it is. That means eliminate any unnecessary splitters or couplers. A single 3-way splitter at the entry point will be better than a 2-way splitter at the entry with a 2-way splitter further down the line. If the splitter is non-symmetrical (like a 3-way), then attach the longest drop to the high output ( -3.5 dB ) and the shorter ones to the low outputs ( -7 dB ). Eliminate splices, and make sure every splitter port is terminated properly. Make sure all connectors are snug. When attempting to use MoCA, never use a high quality, high isolation splitter, but do make sure it is rated to at least 1000 Mhz. Depending on your CATV provider, it may need to be rated to 1500 MHz. A MoCA filter inserted right at the cable entry can help tremendously.

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Still don't know how many MoCA adaptors required for the two S3 HDs. Tivo online seems to say that one required for each, if all I want to do is get faster transfers.
Each device that does not have a built-in MoCA adapter needs one, regardless of your intent, unless you can provide a Category 5e drop (which is greatly preferred) from your router or switch directly to the device.

Last edited by lrhorer : 01-11-2013 at 10:44 PM.
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Old 01-11-2013, 10:39 PM   #19
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Quote:
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I have been trying to get my new Actiontec MoCA adapters to work and it just dawned on me that my cable modem and my cable TV are on separate lines.
What does that mean?

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Originally Posted by Evilmumrah View Post
Which means they won't work together.
Why, specifically?

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Since my whole point here was to try to avoid rewiring my house in any way, shape or form ---
That sounds like a short-sighted and self-defeating obsession. Getting the wiring in the house to be effectively done should be your first goal, especially if you are going to attempt something like MoCa. A far better solution is to pull Cat5e cabling everywhere it is needed or might be needed in the future. If this is simply not possible (although in most cases, I am forced to ask if coax was run to each location, how is it Cat5 is not possible?), then MoCA may be an acceptable, if limited, solution. MoCA, however, is very sensitive to topology issues. They are almost never insurmountable, but to assume at the outset no re-working of the infrastructure would ever be required is not reasonable.

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what the heck am I supposed to do now? And bear in mind that I am not any sort of electrician or wiring expert.
It does not require any sort of expert to pull a wire from one location to another. Any grade-school dropout is capable of it. A trained ape could easily do it. (Actually, given their size, stature, and agility, a trained young chimpanzee could probably do it far better than any human.) It also doesn't take a degree to trace out an existing cable.

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I have a Premier 4 in one room and a Premier in another and neither one is in the same room as my modem/router. Am I doomed to go back to my powerline adapters? Thanks.
That tells us nothing, except that you have two TiVos.
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Old 01-11-2013, 11:07 PM   #20
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Thanks for all the input. I have Comcast, with high speed internet, phone and cable. There are 4 TVs connected - one more unconnected. Lots of splitters because of room configurations and location of cable coming into the building. I'll try to lay out the topology.

From cable entrance it is about 30 - 35 ft to the first 2 way splitter(A). One output(A1) goes to a powered amplifier installed by Comcast. Then from that amplifier to a 3 way splitter(B). One output(B1) goes to a S3 Tivo located about 30 ft away (up through wall, ceiling and another wall. The second output (B2) goes to a 2nd S3 Tivo about 10 ft away. The 3rd output (B3) goes to another 2 way splitter(C). One output (C1) goes to the Comcast cable box which connects to the same TV as the 2nd S3 Tivo. The other output (C2) goes about 15 ft through a wall to a Comcast digital adapter to another TV. That completes one side of the configration from splitter A.

The other output from splitter A, A2 goes about 30 ft to anouthe 2 way splitter (D). One output (D1) goes about 10 ft to a second Comcast digital adapter connected to a S2Tivo another TV. Output D2 goes about 5 ft to the Comcast cable modem, which connects to the wireless router. That completes the second side of the configuration from splitter A.

I was told by Comcast at the time of installation that the positioning of the amplifier should not be in the line of the cable modem because of potential intereference with the internet signal. Comcast was out 2 or 3 times to trim cables, change connectors, change splitters, add/subtract amplifiers to get signals within the correct ranges. Has worked fairly well to date, with only a little signal breakup every now and then.

SInce this is a condo building and I am on a cement floor, somewhat difficult to wire without tearing up walls and ceilings. Looks like my worst path is 65 ft thru 3 splitters and an amplifier, longest path is 75 ft thru 2 splitters and an amplifier, and cable modem is 70 ft and 2 splitters from entry. Doesn't sound too good.

Hope this helps you to understand.

Intention was to replace S2 Tivo with one of the S3 HDs, and replace that S# with the Premiere 4, then to try to configure with MoCA to get faster transfer speed between Tivos.

Sorry for the length.

ANy thoughts?
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Old 01-16-2013, 09:49 PM   #21
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Are you using splitters that are rated to support MoCA? If you use the ordinary 'crappy' splitter supplied by the cable company it may be attenuating the MoCA signal which rides above 1GHz. Any splitter in your setup (attic, etc.) that isn't rated for above 1GHz effectively acts like a low-pass filter and attenuates the MoCA signal.

MoCA 1.0 uses RF signals in an operating range of 850 to 1500 MHz so in general splitters should support frequencies up to 1500 MHz. I've seen some MoCA splitters on Amazon that go up to 1200 MHz and my experience is these generally work. The new MoCA 2.0 standard uses RF signals from 500 to 1650 MHz.
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Old 01-16-2013, 09:51 PM   #22
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I noticed that Home Depot sells this GE 2-Way 2500MHz Coax Splitter for $8.98/EA.
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Old 01-17-2013, 06:00 PM   #23
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MoCA Splitters

Thanks for the input - I've just ordered a Premiere 4 deal which comes with a free MoCA adapter and POE, so I'll see how it works with my current configuration. I am only trying to improve transfers between Tivos - wireless n is pretty slow - many transfers fail before they are finished (a 1 hour HD program can take 3 - 4 hours). So hopefully MoCA will help - but I need to get a few more adapters for the other Tivo HDS first, before I can find out if it works well between them. Hopefully the splitters I have will be good enough, but will wait and see.
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Old 06-05-2013, 08:51 AM   #24
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Tivo moca freq?

Can someone please tell me what frequency tivos moca works on? Not a range please, the actual frequency.. trying to see if it interferes with my comcast moca box.

Thanks
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Old 06-06-2013, 07:48 AM   #25
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Can someone please tell me what frequency tivos moca works on? Not a range please, the actual frequency.. trying to see if it interferes with my comcast moca box.

Thanks
How could they interfere? There can be up to 16 MOCA devices on a frequency.
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Old 06-06-2013, 06:45 PM   #26
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How could they interfere? There can be up to 16 MOCA devices on a frequency.
Ok, allow me to be a bit more specific...

If it is moca v2.0, I understand that it can work at or above 500mhz, I'm not sure where TiVo's moca operates at. If it works anywhere between 500-860mhz, that can interfere with digital cable frequencies operating in that range. If a user did not install a PoE filter, that traffic can get back onto the main line, and affect neighbors that also have cable. I doubt that its anywhere below 1ghz, but just curious.
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Old 06-07-2013, 12:10 PM   #27
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Ok, allow me to be a bit more specific...

If it is moca v2.0, I understand that it can work at or above 500mhz, I'm not sure where TiVo's moca operates at. If it works anywhere between 500-860mhz, that can interfere with digital cable frequencies operating in that range. If a user did not install a PoE filter, that traffic can get back onto the main line, and affect neighbors that also have cable. I doubt that its anywhere below 1ghz, but just curious.
MOCA generally uses frequencies from 850 to 1525 MHz so you will be fine. The DirecTV flavor of ethernet over coaxial (which they call DECA) would interfere with your digital cable frequencies.
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