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Old 05-25-2013, 04:28 PM   #1
tlbz
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TiVo & FiOS TV help please...

I need to provide a bit of background before I can ask my questions.

I currently have Comcast but I am considering moving to FiOS for tv--I have FiOS for broadband and phone--but because I have a hearing loss, I need closed captions to make tv programming accessible and things get a little tricky because there is a significant problem with FiOS when it comes to closed caption support. Using a FiOS stb, closed captions do not display if digital closed caption options 3 through 6 are chosen--only digital closed caption option 1 displays captions and the display quality is very, very poor (basically unreadable for the most part). With Comcast, I use digital closed caption option 3 (or sometimes 4).

The Verizon techs (via dslreports.com Verizon Direct forum) have suggested that using a TiVo with a Verizon cablecard would do the trick because TiVo devices support all 6 of the digital closed caption options--in other words captions will be displayed no matter which digital closed caption option is chosen. On a TiVo device, these options are labelled "DTVCC1", "DTVCC2", "DTVCC3", etc. according to TiVo documentation.


Questions:

1. Is there anyone on the forum with FiOS using a TiVo Premier (this model seems like the most appropriate one for me but any TiVo that supports closed captioning woud be fine) who would be willing to check to see if the TiVo digital closed caption option 3 and/or 4 actually do display the closed captions and report back? You'd just need to check a couple of channels during regular programming (not ads because many ads are still not closed captioned) say something on CBS and any PBS channel.


2. Because FiOS On Demand is not available using a cablecard, I've considered using a FiOS stb in addition to the TiVo device. Is there anyone on the forum who might have this sort of setup and if so, could you check and see if setting the TiVo Premier digital closed caption option 3 and/or 4 displays captions--again, regular programming on say CBS and any PBS station? I'm not sure if one would need to turn on closed captioning on the FiOS stb in addition to turning on closed captioning on the TiVo device and perhaps you could try it with FiOS stb's closed caption option OFF and also with FiOS closed caption option set to "CC3" (and/or "CC4")--do not test with FiOS closed caption "CC1" set.

Thank you!!!

Terrie

Last edited by tlbz : 05-25-2013 at 05:44 PM.
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Old 05-25-2013, 07:30 PM   #2
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Hi,

I have Fios with a premier xl4. I just checked and was able to use both cc3 and cc4 on a few channels. Worked fine!
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Old 05-25-2013, 11:15 PM   #3
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bigguy126: I have Fios with a premier xl4. I just checked and was able to use both cc3 and cc4 on a few channels. Worked fine!
Thank you very much for checking for me! I really appreciate it.

Do you remember by any chance if when you had digital caption option 3 selected if the captions were in Spanish? The reason I'm asking is the user ThAbtO (in the other thread I started) who lives in the SF Bay area said that selecting DTVCC3 displays Spanish captions--on the east coast (I'm in the DC metro area), option 2 generally displays Spanish captions and option 3 English captions so I just thought I'd ask.


Are you using a cablecard or do you have a FiOS stb?

Thanks!

Terrie

Last edited by tlbz : 05-25-2013 at 11:41 PM.
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Old 05-26-2013, 03:34 AM   #4
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The Premiere only works with a CableCard, not an STB. You could of course hook up an STB to the TV in parallel, on another input, but that would have nothing to do with the TiVo.

I don't have that much experience with captions, but I think you're mistaken in saying that specific caption tracks "generally" behave one way or another. AFAICT, most channels only have one caption track (or, in some cases, zero). It's kind of difficult to test this, though, since the UI for changing caption tracks is a pain.

But I wonder if what you're calling an "option" is actually something different from the selectable tracks? What is it about "option 3" that you like, vs. "option 1"?
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Old 05-26-2013, 12:23 PM   #5
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I do not think that it is automatic that CC2 is always spanish and that CC3 is definitely english. I am pretty confident it does not work that way

I live in Dallas and I only remember seeing one CC track per TV show and it has always been english. Granted, I am not the ultimate expert on this matter, so someone else might say different.

I have FIOS and I do have a little bit of experience playing around with the closed caption stuff. This caption stuff is fairly simple, actually, once you get the hang of it.

When you are watching a show, you can simply click the "info" button on your tivo remote. When you do this it will give you a popup box on your TV screen. If you see CC in the description then you know that it does have captions. If you want to see more info about the captions then you simply need to scroll down inside the popup box on your screen to the CC icon and that will tell you if the captions are on CC1, or CC2, or whatever.

TC

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Old 05-26-2013, 04:55 PM   #6
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You answered my post about TiVo at dslreports in the FiOS TV section (I'm tlbepson over there) and I was going to ask you further questions there but now that you are here...'-}}


Quote:
wmcbrine: The Premiere only works with a CableCard, not an STB. You could of course hook up an STB to the TV in parallel, on another input, but that would have nothing to do with the TiVo.
Using an stb with a TiVo is an opton I very briefly discussed with Verizon techs on the Verizon Direct forum at dslreports.com and I was waiting until I had more info before pursuing that approach in any detail.



>>But I wonder if what you're calling an "option" is actually something different from the selectable tracks?

No. Definitely not. Closed captions are not subtitles and closed captions are implemented and work differently than subtitles.

I contacted the (totally useless and incredibly idiotic) Verizon Closed Captioning Help office with some questions about FiOS closed captions. I outlined my experience with closed captioning after playing on my sister's FiOSTV system which has a Motorola QIP7100 stb (LG HDTV) using HDMI cabling. My questions were (finally!) passed on to the tech side and here is their response--using component cables does not fix the problem as I'd hoped it would:

Using HDMI requires that the 708 CC data is decoded and rendered by the Set Top Box, then passed over in a composited (SD) format to the display for viewing. The captions rendered can appear differently than what a user may be used to, when comparing against 608 CC data streams rendered by the display. Component may or may not solve for this, as not all TVs look for 608 CC data on the component inputs.


My take on the above, given my experience, is that the 708CC data--as least as processed by digital closed caption option "1"--is badly screwed (actually, I'd use a much strong anglosaxon term starting with "F"...'-}}). This problem is exacerbated by the fact that Verizon has not implemented the full complement of digital closed caption options on their stb's--that is, only digital closed caption option "1" displays captions with none of the other options work. Because all 6 digital closed caption options on Comcast's rebranded Motorola stb's do work--captions are displayed when using any of the 6 options--there is no reason that all 6 options should not work on Verizon (Motorola) stb's.



>>What is it about "option 3" that you like, vs. "option 1"?

There is something hinky (best way I can describe it) with digital closed caption option "1" in that the display quality is poor and no matter which of the user-chosen digital caption style options one chooses, the underlying problem with characteristics of option "1" remains so that the captions are difficult if not impossible to read.

More specifically, option "1" caption display presents itself as though the "constrain proportions" option has been unchecked (if you are familiar with the concept of altering image size in say Photoshop) so that the text box is squashed/flattened with the letters of the text itself running together. The text looks pixelated--I think because it's actually in SD rather than HD sort of like looking at the printed output of an old dot matrix printer vs. laser printer output. Additionally, the text it too large even if "small" is chosen using the "font size" option. This problem with digital closed caption option "1" is not restricted to FiOS because the same issue exists on Comcast's stb's. It becomes an issue with FiOS because none of the other digital closed caption options display captions.

I use digital closed caption option "3" (sometimes "4") because the user-chosen (digital) font style settings are actually implemented making the display quality of the closed captions readable. The text box is in proportion to the text, the text itself is "smooth" (vs. pixelated with option "1")--I think because the display is HD (vs. SD for option "1"). The reason I sometimes use option "4" is because for some (unfathomable, inexplicable, only-known-to-the-gods) reason on some PBS stations, captions will display just fine using option "3" but then after anywhere from 10 to 15 minutes, the captions disappear but when I use option "4", the captions display continuously as they should. I could equally as well use digital closed caption options "5" or "6" but it's quicker to choose "3" (or "4") from Comcast stb's hidden captioning options window (don't get me started on having to go there to set captions...'-}}). I don't use digitial closed caption option "2" because that is (generally) reserved for Spanish closed captions and...for CBS (and some other broadcasters--not all), the captions disappear after 3 minutes when option "2" is used.

Thanks!

Terrie

Last edited by tlbz : 05-26-2013 at 05:32 PM.
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Old 05-26-2013, 05:11 PM   #7
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truecolors: I do not think that it is automatic that CC2 is always spanish and that CC3 is definitely english. I am pretty confident it does not work that way
Until another user here mentioned that s/he saw Spanish captions when using digitial closed caption option "3", I would have said option "2"=Spanish captions but now I know better...'-}}



>>I live in Dallas and I only remember seeing one CC track per TV show and it has always been english.

The use of the term "track" is confusing because it implies something about how closed captioning is implemented that can be confusing and misleading. In the US and with the exception of Spanish closed captions, closed captioning is done in English. Closed captions are not subtitles. Subtitles are the way that foreign language dialogue is translated to other languages and the subtitles are displayed differently--they are "embedded" into (generally) a single area on the screen (usually near the bottom) vs. closed captions which actually "float" on the screen (usually at the bottom but sometimes near the top). It could be that subtitles are where the idea of language "tracks" comes from because on film DVD's for example, one can choose different subtitle languages and you can't do that with closed captions because closed captions are not subtitles--closed captions will contain sound indicators (door closing, phone ringing, footsteps, thunder, etc.) that are not in subtitles.

Thanks...

Terrie

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Old 05-26-2013, 07:20 PM   #8
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>>But I wonder if what you're calling an "option" is actually something different from the selectable tracks?

No. Definitely not. Closed captions are not subtitles and closed captions are implemented and work differently than subtitles.
I didn't say anything about subtitles. I'm aware of the difference between captions and subtitles.

Quote:
>>What is it about "option 3" that you like, vs. "option 1"?

There is something hinky (best way I can describe it) with digital closed caption option "1" in that the display quality is poor and no matter which of the user-chosen digital caption style options one chooses, the underlying problem with characteristics of option "1" remains so that the captions are difficult if not impossible to read.
That's not my experience at all. All the captions look the same. (This is with a TiVo, of course.) There are some channels where the captions are messed up (gibberish), but the characters are still rendered nicely.

BTW, the TiVo has options for "Standard captions" (None, CC1 through CC4), and "Digital captions" (None, DTVCC1 through DTVCC6). Normally I leave those set on CC1 and DTVCC1, and get acceptable captions most of the time (when I turn them on).
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Old 05-26-2013, 10:24 PM   #9
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wmcbrine: I didn't say anything about subtitles. I'm aware of the difference between captions and subtitles.
Sorry...added the part about subtitles via a later edit to my reply to you after replying to user True Colors because his post made me think that the idea of "tracking" might come from the subtitling options one sees on film DVDs...



>>That's not my experience at all. All the captions look the same. (This is with a TiVo, of course.)

That is actually really good to hear. It may be that the TiVo code actually handles option "1" properly--will wonders never cease...'-}}

I've often wondered if the fact that I see the same poor display quality via both Comcast and FiOS stb's is a function of the Motorola code--Comcast uses a rebranded Motorola stb.




>>There are some channels where the captions are messed up (gibberish), but the characters are still rendered nicely.

Off-hand can you remember any of the broadcasters with gibberish captions and is the problem consistent across all the programming on the channel? I'm just curious.




>>BTW, the TiVo has options for "Standard captions" (None, CC1 through CC4), and "Digital captions" (None, DTVCC1 through DTVCC6). Normally I leave those set on CC1 and DTVCC1, and get acceptable captions most of the time (when I turn them on).

I read that in a thread (or 2) when I did a forum search on "closed caption" (no quotes) but the threads were old--2010-ish--and I wasn't sure if the "Standard" captions (analog I think???) were still available since I thought all broadcasting was now done digitally and the analog captions were no longer transmitted. I guess that's not the case. With analog closed captioning, CC1 was the norm to use because options 2-4 were reserved for some sort of different situations. If I'm remembering correctly, analog option 3 (I think) used to overlay the entire tv screen--you couldn't see the broadcast on the screen.

For those of us who need closed captions, digital captions were touted as being wonderful! but my gut told me that it was not going to be as fabulously wonderful as we were told. For the most part, that's been my experience because, for example, whoever had a part in designing the digital closed caption options were totally clueless about typography/fonts as exemplified by offering a font like Dom Casual (??!!!) which is a perfectly ridiculous font choice for video display...'-}}

What digital closed captions do offer that can be very helpful to some people is being able to do things like change the color of the caption text, change the foreground and background colors and the density of the color (transparent, opaque, etc.) which for people with some visual acquity issues in addition to hearing loss can make programs accessible in a way that analog closed captions were not.

Now that I know that all the digital closed caption options work on the TiVo side, my other problem area is losing access to On Demand which is something I use a lot. I like being able to browse around and watch programs that even if I did use a dvr, I would probably not be dvr'ing--if that makes sense. I guess I need to see what alternatives there are that TiVo might provide access to that I don't have access to via the use of an stb. I know about Amazon and Netflix but I'm not looking to pay yet more money.

Maybe I'll start another thread about that...

Thanks!

Terrie

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Old 05-27-2013, 02:16 AM   #10
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Off-hand can you remember any of the broadcasters with gibberish captions and is the problem consistent across all the programming on the channel? I'm just curious.
Right now I'm only seeing it on 887 (TMCXHD). I'm sure it's been on others in the past. It is consistent across programs.
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Old 05-27-2013, 01:39 PM   #11
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wmcbrine: Right now I'm only seeing it on 887 (TMCXHD). I'm sure it's been on others in the past. It is consistent across programs.
Thanks for the info...I don't get TMC so I can't doublecheck it...the fact that it's consistent across all programming for the channel indicates to me that it's probably an issue on the TMC end. Since I need the captions, what I would probably do is try a different closed captioning option because often that will do the trick...

Terrie
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Old 05-27-2013, 03:08 PM   #12
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It won't. I couldn't find a single channel last night with more than one caption track, including that one. Most had CC1, and at least one had DTVCC1. I never saw anything else. (I did see multiple tracks on one of the HBO channels, but that was years ago.)
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Old 05-27-2013, 03:19 PM   #13
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wmcbrine: It won't. I couldn't find a single channel last night with more than one caption track, including that one. Most had CC1, and at least one had DTVCC1. I never saw anything else. (I did see multiple tracks on one of the HBO channels, but that was years ago.)
If it's not too inconvenient for you, what happens if you choose say DTVCC3 when DTVCC1 is listed?

Thanks...

Terrie
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Old 05-27-2013, 04:52 PM   #14
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Nothing happens. There are no captions.
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Old 05-27-2013, 06:26 PM   #15
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wmcbrine: Nothing happens. There are no captions.
Ohhhh! That's very interesting. Given that you've said that DTVCC1 display quality is good, it may not be that big a deal but it's definitely something I'd look into more closely if I were to get a TiVo.

Thank you very much for checking...

Terrie
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Old 05-29-2013, 10:31 PM   #16
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The use of the term "track" is confusing because it implies something about how closed captioning is implemented that can be confusing and misleading. In the US and with the exception of Spanish closed captions, closed captioning is done in English. Closed captions are not subtitles. Subtitles are the way that foreign language dialogue is translated to other languages and the subtitles are displayed differently--they are "embedded" into (generally) a single area on the screen (usually near the bottom) vs. closed captions which actually "float" on the screen (usually at the bottom but sometimes near the top). It could be that subtitles are where the idea of language "tracks" comes from because on film DVD's for example, one can choose different subtitle languages and you can't do that with closed captions because closed captions are not subtitles--closed captions will contain sound indicators (door closing, phone ringing, footsteps, thunder, etc.) that are not in subtitles.

terrie..... you have obviously put a lot of time and thought into this. I can appreciate your efforts and research, because I am the same way myself when I am making a purchase.

However..... having said that..... I disagree with some of your terminology, and also, I think that you are making this whole deal out to be way more complicated than it really needs to be.

First of all..... I am not sure why you object to the word "track" being applied to captions, and furthermore, I do not understand why you think that the term track SHOULD be applied to subtitles.

Honestly, in my opinion, you actually have this backwards. In my opinion, the technology involved with captions does fit to the traditional meaning of a track but subtitles do not fit the description.

What is a track? A track is a block of sequential information which is partitioned and retrieved in the form of a stream....... examples..... 8 track tape, record track, soundtrack, audio track, video track, CD track, etc. etc.

This definition of a track fits closed captions very well. It does NOT fit subtitles.

Subtitles are sometimes referred to as "hard" or "soft."

Hard subtitles are generally burned into a video track and cannot be turned off or removed. They cannot be adjusted on the fly. They are not partitioned. They actually become part of the video. They can no longer be isolated separately or extracted from the video feed.

Soft subtitles are generally drawn from a separate source and transposed onto the video. They can be manipulated on the fly.

Either way, hard or soft, subtitles are really not a "track" in the classical definition of that word the way that I have always understood it.

Also, as far as the Tivo goes, the process is very, very simple. If you are watching a show, you can grab your remote control and click the "info" button. This will result in a popup box on your screen with details about the program you are watching. Quite simply, if you do not see "CC" in the description, then there are no captions. And of course, if you do see "CC" included, then there are captions.

And if a show does include captions, then you can easily get more details about this from the Tivo as well.

I will provide you some pictures that I captured from my TV screen which should help illustrate this for you.

TC

P.S. By the way, I do hope that you end up purchasing an HD tivo. I have FIOS myself, and it works terrific with my Tivo Premiere. Couldn't live without it
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Old 05-29-2013, 10:37 PM   #17
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FYI.... you can click on these images below to see a larger size of them.

Screen shot 1..... If you have recorded a show on your Tivo, and you want to see if it has captions, then you can easily go into your list of recordings and you will see a "CC" included in the show description.
Highslide JS


Screen shot 2...... if you are actively watching a show and you want to see if it has captions included, then you can simply hit "info" on your remote control
Highslide JS


Screen shot 3..... if you are watching a show with captions, and you want to see extra information about the captions, then you simply use your remote control to scroll over the CC information. In this particular example, you will see that it says:
"This program has the following standard CC tracks: CC1"
Highslide JS

I hope that this helps.

TC
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Old 05-30-2013, 12:54 AM   #18
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true colors: I am not sure why you object to the word "track" being applied to captions, and furthermore, I do not understand why you think that the term track SHOULD be applied to subtitles.
First...it is only within this forum that I have ever seen the term "tracks" applied to closed captions. I'm fully willing to say that while I am experienced on a practical level when it comes to playing with closed captions and captioning settings, I know pretty much absolutely diddly squat about the actual technology involved so I'm also fully willing to say...I'm wrong about not using "tracks" when talking about closed captions...'-}}

My reasoning behind using "tracks" and "subtitles" in the same sentence is that--on film DVDs at least--there are usually multiple languages available and conceptually, I don't think it's unreasonable (given my abysmal technical knowledge of video/audio...'-}}) to think of each subtitle language selection being stored (?) separately (track?).

Currently, in the US, closed captions are in either English or Spanish--and I believe that a program has to have the SAP designation for Spanish closed captions to display. So in my mind (remember...not a video/audio tech) English is primary and pretty much only (yeah, yeah...Spanish is there too but not much of it...'-}}) so "track" as a term just doesn't fit conceptually. Again...perfectly willing to say...I am cluelessly ignorant...'-}}



>>Also, as far as the Tivo goes, the process is very, very simple. If you are watching a show, you can grab your remote control and click the "info" button. This will result in a popup box on your screen with details about the program you are watching. Quite simply, if you do not see "CC" in the description, then there are no captions. And of course, if you do see "CC" included, then there are captions.

With TiVo you are blessed by having the "cc" consistently present in the program description but that is not the case for all program displays from various cable companies. Comcast (oh gag!) used to display "cc" in their program discriptions but then they disappears because, and I quote from the incredibly condescending Comcast rep who was handling the consumer complaint about closed captioning issues that I filed against Comcast in my county, "Well, everything is closed captioned now so you don't need that"--I still get furious when I think about this response. It's a plus for TiVo that the "cc" is there.



>>P.S. By the way, I do hope that you end up purchasing an HD tivo. I have FIOS myself, and it works terrific with my Tivo Premiere. Couldn't live without it

It's pretty unlikely that I will be purchasing a TiVo because the only reason I even considered it would be to get readable closed captions if I were to go with FiOSTV but it means that I would lose access to On Demand programming which I watch a lot, I would be paying $150 (maybe $99 if I got a deal) for the device, either the monthly TiVo subscription or $500 for lifetime when I have no desire to dvr any programming so it doesn't seem to me to be a practical expenditure when my reasoning for investigating FiOStv in the first place was to reduce the amount of money I pay out each month for tv, broadband and phone by going with a FiOS triple play.


Thanks so much for the screen shots...'-}}

Terrie

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Old 05-30-2013, 02:53 PM   #19
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... and I believe that a program has to have the SAP designation for Spanish closed captions to display.
"SAP" is "Second Audio Program"; it's got nothing to do with captions. I wouldn't be surprised to see a high degree of correlation, but there's no necessary relationship.
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