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Old 06-09-2013, 10:57 AM   #31
heyted
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I am somewhat sure you can't record with your TP v14.8c
It is understandable that you doubt a Premiere can manually record without TiVo service given the amount of information online saying it cannot. It appears that TiVo Inc. allows differing levels of functionality with no service depending on the software version and settings. Maybe they change their minds about what, if anything, the TiVo can do without service. A recent example of this is the re-enabling of trick play, which includes recording data to the hard disc. Maybe they allow some level of functionality with no service to entice the user to get the TiVo service.

GggvQmVsEIo

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Old 06-09-2013, 11:22 AM   #32
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It is understandable that you doubt a Premiere can manually record without TiVo service given the amount of information online saying it cannot. It appears that TiVo Inc. allows differing levels of functionality with no service depending on the software version and settings. Maybe they change their minds about what, if anything, the TiVo can do without service. A recent example of this is the re-enabling of trick play, which includes recording data to the hard disc. Maybe they allow some level of functionality with no service to entice the user to get the TiVo service.
It's more than "It appears that TiVo Inc. allows differing levels of functionality with no service depending on the software version and settings" It's a known fact that the later service revisions are tighter on allowing the non-subbed devices and their level of functionality, this is why users force older units into the "island" mode with an older OS.

A Premiere is meant to be all but unusable when unsubscribed since Tivo makes no money on the hardware, the service is their income source, it's in their best business practices to prevent loopholes allowing units from doing what you're having yours do.
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Old 06-09-2013, 01:15 PM   #33
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It is understandable that you doubt a Premiere can manually record without TiVo service given the amount of information online saying it cannot. It appears that TiVo Inc. allows differing levels of functionality with no service depending on the software version and settings. Maybe they change their minds about what, if anything, the TiVo can do without service. A recent example of this is the re-enabling of trick play, which includes recording data to the hard disc. Maybe they allow some level of functionality with no service to entice the user to get the TiVo service.

GggvQmVsEIo
This does make any sense to me as a new TPs have to be setup before they can be used, and the software is updated before the setup itself is done, there is no way anybody could tell what software is sent out with any new TP because of this pre-setup software update that TiVo is now doing.
I am not talking about special hacking one may be able to do on a TP, but we all would like to hear about any TPs that can record after 30 days of no service or not calling home, or both. I have an non service TP-4 with a cable card, it set up OK and acts like a cable box getting all the channels I pay for without any guide data or the ability to record, the buffer does work and for a guest room it does the job. (I know I don't need 4 tuners for a guest room but the price I was able to get the TP-4 it was worth it to me if in the future I wanted activate it.)
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Old 06-09-2013, 09:29 PM   #34
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Without service, you cannot request a recording to be saved. All you get is the 30 minute live buffer with trick play.
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Old 06-09-2013, 10:31 PM   #35
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It's more than "It appears that TiVo Inc. allows differing levels of functionality with no service depending on the software version and settings" It's a known fact that the later service revisions are tighter on allowing the non-subbed devices and their level of functionality, this is why users force older units into the "island" mode with an older OS.

A Premiere is meant to be all but unusable when unsubscribed since Tivo makes no money on the hardware, the service is their income source, it's in their best business practices to prevent loopholes allowing units from doing what you're having yours do.
Could you please answer the question I asked of you earlier, regarding your reference to what you mean my an "island" TiVo?

If I could block my SOME of own units from updating the software, without living on an actual island, I'd LOVE TO try that out. Some of my units COULD benefit from NOT receiving updates, and I'd like to try it out, if possible. I do have some drives that ONLY have the factory pre-imaged software on them still. I hate how, one updated, they become BRICKS, even when there is a momentary inability for the real-time TiVo VCM to connect. They didn't used to be that way, until updates were applied.

FYI: ALL my units are lifetime service, which can NOT be validated without at least ONE service connection, even with the old software...
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Old 06-09-2013, 10:36 PM   #36
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This does make any sense to me as a new TPs have to be setup before they can be used, and the software is updated before the setup itself is done, there is no way anybody could tell what software is sent out with any new TP because of this pre-setup software update that TiVo is now doing.
I am not talking about special hacking one may be able to do on a TP, but we all would like to hear about any TPs that can record after 30 days of no service or not calling home, or both. I have an non service TP-4 with a cable card, it set up OK and acts like a cable box getting all the channels I pay for without any guide data or the ability to record, the buffer does work and for a guest room it does the job. (I know I don't need 4 tuners for a guest room but the price I was able to get the TP-4 it was worth it to me if in the future I wanted activate it.)
I agree, it just doesn't make sense. The people claiming it works, as of yet, haven't given me ANY responses to clarify things, or make it make sense. So, I'm getting suspicious about the claims made.
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Old 06-09-2013, 11:24 PM   #37
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It's what I'd refer to any networked device that is no longer networked and living on its own, it's an island...
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Could you please answer the question I asked of you earlier, regarding your reference to what you mean my an "island" TiVo?
Was that not a sufficient answer to your question?
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Old 06-09-2013, 11:26 PM   #38
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I agree, it just doesn't make sense. The people claiming it works, as of yet, haven't given me ANY responses to clarify things, or make it make sense. So, I'm getting suspicious about the claims made.
There have been more than a few different discussions over the changes made to the features available being decreased as they went away from 14.9, and the general outcome is that Tivo wants to make the units less attractive without a subscription.
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Old 06-10-2013, 12:33 AM   #39
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Was that not a sufficient answer to your question?
Now, you've specified what I asked, regarding what you mean by "island". So, yes, now I find that part sufficient.

I wanted to be sure the user wasn't located on an island, where getting a TiVo Service Connection wasn't possible, and perhaps had the TiVo shipped pre-authorized, with a TiVo-implemented way to retain that authorization indefinitely.

Now, I just want to know how it's possible for a TiVo to get it's lifetime authentication, WITHOUT receiving an automatic software update, which would force it to keep re-validating.

I'm thinking that this is some sort of hack, or an otherwise unknown way of blocking of an update being installed.

I want to know: How do you connect to the TiVo Service, get the authentication, and block the TiVo from AUTOMATICALLY updating it's software? It can't be easy, unless there's extenuating circumstances, in which TiVo themselves made it possible. Inquiring minds want to know more about how this is possible, and how to replicate it. If it can't be replicated, or proven as something TiVo allowed, it will continue to NOT make sense to those who have taken interest in the matter.
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Old 06-10-2013, 01:07 AM   #40
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Now, you've specified what I asked, regarding what you mean by "island". So, yes, now I find that part sufficient.

I wanted to be sure the user wasn't located on an island, where getting a TiVo Service Connection wasn't possible, and perhaps had the TiVo shipped pre-authorized, with a TiVo-implemented way to retain that authorization indefinitely.

Now, I just want to know how it's possible for a TiVo to get it's lifetime authentication, WITHOUT receiving an automatic software update, which would force it to keep re-validating.

I'm thinking that this is some sort of hack, or an otherwise unknown way of blocking of an update being installed.

I want to know: How do you connect to the TiVo Service, get the authentication, and block the TiVo from AUTOMATICALLY updating it's software? It can't be easy, unless there's extenuating circumstances, in which TiVo themselves made it possible. Inquiring minds want to know more about how this is possible, and how to replicate it. If it can't be replicated, or proven as something TiVo allowed, it will continue to NOT make sense to those who have taken interest in the matter.
+1
Maybe a troll is the real answer to this or one can't tell the difference between a series 1 and a series 4.
You must set up a new TiVo to get your channel map for your area into the TiVo, you can get that ch map without any TiVo service.
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Old 06-10-2013, 01:37 AM   #41
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+1
Maybe a troll is the real answer to this or one can't tell the difference between a series 1 and a series 4.
You must set up a new TiVo to get your channel map for your area into the TiVo, you can get that ch map without any TiVo service.
Going by the OP, who brought up they were running a software version which would be that of a factory shipped Premiere, or a very close version that could have been a single update soon after shipment release, and the fact that that OP has gone silent since questions like ours have been posted, leaves me wondering - why the silence on the part the OP? Something to hide? Something they don't want to answer? I remain highly skeptical at this point.
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Old 06-10-2013, 02:05 AM   #42
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there is no way anybody could tell what software is sent out with any new TP because of this pre-setup software update that TiVo is now doing.
I accidentally found out that you can find out what software version your Premiere or HD is shipped with by simply pressing the Info button on the very first setup screen. It will appear at the bottom of the screen.

Also, TiVo puts a sticker on EVERY Premiere or HD drive which contains the software version that is on the drive.

Also, of the few things TiVo DOES actually post about their software on their website, is what the shipping versions are. I think you have to do some digging to find that information, IIRC.
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Old 06-10-2013, 06:46 AM   #43
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It's 14.5-01-3 (at least on 746 & 748 models).
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Old 06-10-2013, 07:07 AM   #44
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It's 14.5-01-3 (at least on 746 & 748 models).
It varies. Three out of my four TCD746320 models came with N 14.4-01-3-746, and surprise, the one with the oldest manufacture date came with N 14.5-01-3-746.

I peeked inside a new TCD746500 unit a year ago, and it had 14.(something like 8)-02-746, which I assumed was necessary due to it using an AF drive, while the TCD746320 didn't have AF drives.

My TiVo HD's came with 8.17C2-01-2-652 on the oldest two, and the newest two came with F 9.48-01-2-652 5.

DVR_DUDE ships all his upgrades with a shipping version, and none of the shipping versions for the units I have natively support 2TB. Somehow, he works it out where you still get it. He claims that the reason he does it this way is to avoid customers having issues getting updates, and to avoid issues with future updates (makes me think he knows something that both he & TiVo knows, and we don't).

I'd written down which versions he uses, but can't find that piece of paper at the moment,

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Old 06-10-2013, 11:21 AM   #45
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DVR_DUDE ships all his upgrades with a shipping version, and none of the shipping versions for the units I have natively support 2TB. Somehow, he works it out where you still get it. He claims that the reason he does it this way is to avoid customers having issues getting updates, and to avoid issues with future updates (makes me think he knows something that both he & TiVo knows, and we don't).

I'd written down which versions he uses, but can't find that piece of paper at the moment,
He may do that because doing a direct copy of a new TiVo hard drive before it is set up will mean one will not have to do a C&D all after the initial setup. When I do a upgraded hard drive for somebody I set it up with the newest software and have the drive do a C&D all when first powered on, worked for years without any problems.
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Old 06-10-2013, 08:58 PM   #46
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I want to know: How do you connect to the TiVo Service, get the authentication, and block the TiVo from AUTOMATICALLY updating it's software?
I wish I could help, but I do not know how to do that. The only way I know to have manual recording without service is to find a Premiere that was disconnected a long time ago after being set up (when the software allowed it). I do not know if there are other ways to do it.
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Old 06-10-2013, 09:00 PM   #47
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He may do that because doing a direct copy of a new TiVo hard drive before it is set up will mean one will not have to do a C&D all after the initial setup. When I do a upgraded hard drive for somebody I set it up with the newest software and have the drive do a C&D all when first powered on, worked for years without any problems.
Yeah, I've taken all that into consideration. Until I started using never-used DVR_DUDE drives as a source for my own personal copy targets, I would always do as you do. I don't update the DVR_DUDE originals, just in case there's ANY possibility there's a reason he does it that way, beyond the scope of what we've discussed (erring on the side of caution). Besides, the whole update process doesn't really add enough time to the set-up completion to bother me, unlike how it used to be, BEFORE TiVo made it where the update is applied BEFORE completing Guided Setup, which took hours, and then would make you repeat it all after the update. I'm sure you recall how agonizingly slow the Premiere was before they made it update first, then complete setup after...
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Old 06-10-2013, 09:16 PM   #48
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I wish I could help, but I do not know how to do that. The only way I know to have manual recording without service is to find a Premiere that was disconnected a long time ago after being set up (when the software allowed it). I do not know if there are other ways to do it.
Thanks for checking back in. What you say makes sense. TiVo managed to change the order of things and get the software update part to happen at the beginning of first-time setup, as opposed to fully setting up the shipping version, and then downloading the update, and making you go through setup all over again.

How can it be reproduced, so others can have what you have? I'm working on coming up with a fully-plausible (and legal) way to do so. It may involve getting an exact clone of your drive, or a clone from another person who has the same situation in place, then seeing if the C&DE forces you to connect to the TiVo Service. If it does, then, I don't see many options.

I'd highly suggest cloning your drive, for you own protection, since if your drive were to fail, you'd be stuck in the same boat as everybody else. Since a C&DE wouldn't be required to put a cloned drive into your own unit, you should be able to keep things as they are (just with a fresh drive, should the one you are running fail on you).
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Old 06-10-2013, 11:12 PM   #49
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Thanks for checking back in. What you say makes sense. TiVo managed to change the order of things and get the software update part to happen at the beginning of first-time setup, as opposed to fully setting up the shipping version, and then downloading the update, and making you go through setup all over again.

How can it be reproduced, so others can have what you have? I'm working on coming up with a fully-plausible (and legal) way to do so. It may involve getting an exact clone of your drive, or a clone from another person who has the same situation in place, then seeing if the C&DE forces you to connect to the TiVo Service. If it does, then, I don't see many options.

I'd highly suggest cloning your drive, for you own protection, since if your drive were to fail, you'd be stuck in the same boat as everybody else. Since a C&DE wouldn't be required to put a cloned drive into your own unit, you should be able to keep things as they are (just with a fresh drive, should the one you are running fail on you).
I have been doing this upgrading for a long time and any C&D all will force you to connect to the TiVo service to set up that TiVo, if there is a way around this it is unknown to people on this forum as C&D all is the only way (without using a new virgin Hard Drive) to sync your hard drive to the TSN of your TiVo. And all virgin hard drives also make you go into TiVo setup to use your TiVo for anything.
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Old 06-10-2013, 11:21 PM   #50
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Going by the OP, who brought up they were running a software version which would be that of a factory shipped Premiere, or a very close version that could have been a single update soon after shipment release, and the fact that that OP has gone silent since questions like ours have been posted, leaves me wondering - why the silence on the part the OP? Something to hide? Something they don't want to answer? I remain highly skeptical at this point.
If "OP" refers to the original poster then that's me and my only interest in all this is if my Tivo HD went South could I somehow use a backup unit without paying $399.00 for lifetime service on it. This thread has taken on a life of its' own. LOL
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Old 06-10-2013, 11:45 PM   #51
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If "OP" refers to the original poster then that's me and my only interest in all this is if my Tivo HD went South could I somehow use a backup unit without paying $399.00 for lifetime service on it. This thread has taken on a life of its' own. LOL
I see your point. I meant the OP who started the offshoot discussion, of current. It happens a lot. Sorry, if you feel your thread got hijacked.
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Old 06-11-2013, 12:20 AM   #52
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I have been doing this upgrading for a long time and any C&D all will force you to connect to the TiVo service to set up that TiVo, if there is a way around this it is unknown to people on this forum as C&D all is the only way (without using a new virgin Hard Drive) to sync your hard drive to the TSN of your TiVo. And all virgin hard drives also make you go into TiVo setup to use your TiVo for anything.
Understood. But, I'm going to look into trying to find a way to make this "configuration" possible, outside the fishbowl (or "island") we've been discussing. I'm stubborn about finding workarounds & loopholes.

Could you at least agree that it's in this user's best interest to make a clone, or other form of backup of their drive that is being used in this way?

How else can he continue to have what he has, if the drive he is currently using fails? He would have no need to Clear or Delete Anything: Just "drive out, drive in, continue on as if nothing changed", is how I see it, if he clones or backs it up.
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Old 06-11-2013, 10:37 AM   #53
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Understood. But, I'm going to look into trying to find a way to make this "configuration" possible, outside the fishbowl (or "island") we've been discussing. I'm stubborn about finding workarounds & loopholes.

Could you at least agree that it's in this user's best interest to make a clone, or other form of backup of their drive that is being used in this way?

How else can he continue to have what he has, if the drive he is currently using fails? He would have no need to Clear or Delete Anything: Just "drive out, drive in, continue on as if nothing changed", is how I see it, if he clones or backs it up.
If he had such a drive, backup would be good, but I don't think he does have such a drive and it would no good if he gave you a copy of such a drive because you would have to sync it to your TiVo and C&D all is the only way to do that.
Having a TiVo that will record without guide data, time re-sync, and channel change info, to save the $400 would not interest me or many others, I guess for some it would be good enough, but Comcast in my area is going to scramble all channels starting sometime in July so one would have to get a cable card and do a cable card setup. (they will give out free, for one year, small converter boxes but that means that new HDTVs (and HD TiVos without a cable card) will not be able to use their built in tuners at all, bummer)
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Old 06-11-2013, 11:05 AM   #54
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If he had such a drive, backup would be good, but I don't think he does have such a drive and it would no good if he gave you a copy of such a drive because you would have to sync it to your TiVo and C&D all is the only way to do that.
Having a TiVo that will record without guide data, time re-sync, and channel change info, to save the $400 would not interest me or many others, I guess for some it would be good enough, but Comcast in my area is going to scramble all channels starting sometime in July so one would have to get a cable card and do a cable card setup. (they will give out free, for one year, small converter boxes but that means that new HDTVs (and HD TiVos without a cable card) will not be able to use their built in tuners at all, bummer)
I had already conceded that you were right about your previous posts. I was just pointing out, that it MIGHT benefit him to make a backup for himself, that's all. But, I do realize that his clock could drift off, if the on-board battery is low, or dead, and there could be other factors involved in it not being as easy as I thought. I had ABANDONED thinking of trying to get a copy of such a drive myself.

I just felt that you totally glossed over, or missed, that I was trying to help him keep what he has, if that's how he wants/needs it to be.

If I can find the time, I'm going to try to find a way to block an update, or revert back to pre-update software. I'm going to try to isolate what ports the TiVo uses to download the update, as well as re-examine pre/post update drives, which I already have. It may be mission impossible. That's what makes it so interesting...
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Old 06-11-2013, 07:14 PM   #55
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I see your point. I meant the OP who started the offshoot discussion, of current. It happens a lot. Sorry, if you feel your thread got hijacked.
Not a problem as long as you all are learning and sharing info.
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Old 06-14-2013, 10:54 AM   #56
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It's a known fact that the later service revisions are tighter on allowing the non-subbed devices and their level of functionality
I agree with the exception of the trick play live buffer. The Premiere updates have gone back and forth with allowing live buffer access without TiVo service according to previous posts.
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Old 06-14-2013, 11:09 AM   #57
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Comcast in my area is going to scramble all channels starting sometime in July so one would have to get a cable card and do a cable card setup.
I was able to do the CableCARD setup on my Premiere without TiVo service allowing me to get all the channels I pay for.
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Old 06-15-2013, 03:46 PM   #58
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I was able to do the CableCARD setup on my Premiere without TiVo service allowing me to get all the channels I pay for.
Yes! you and I do just that, for me on one TP without service for a guest bedroom and I do not have TiVo service, but your TiVo will update to the newest software when you do the setup, or when TiVo re-does the ch map, my point was how can one keep TiVo from calling home and keep the channel system correct if you want to keep old software on your TiVo.
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