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Old 04-22-2013, 03:56 PM   #1
dylanemcgregor
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Is it possible to still have a "good" show on Network TV?

I cut the cord about 6 years ago now and during that time I haven't even had an antenna to watch local channels. Most of my TV watching comes from Netflix or Amazon, and it isn't unusual for me to not know what channel something I'm watching was originally broadcast...yet even so I can generally tell within the first minute if a show is on a major broadcast network vs. cable just from the tone, and network TV doesn't fare well in the comparison, IMO.

I have a hard time thinking of more than a handful of good* shows on any of the networks over the last decade or so, while the number of really good shows on cable over the same period seems to have exploded. I know there are a couple of ways in which networks are hamstrung compared to cable. They obviously have stricter "decency" guidelines than cable, and probably much more importantly they have to get a much bigger audience for something to be considered a hit. Are those two things enough to make it kind of impossible for them to make a good show or is there something else at play? Or am I just wrong, and there are all sorts of good shows** on the networks?


*By good I obviously mean shows that I like, but for purposes of the thread we can probably substitute in critical favorites.

** One caveat, I'm not much of a sitcom watcher, but for whatever reason I think networks do seem to do a much better job on sitcoms than on hour long shows, which seems interesting in its own right.
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Old 04-22-2013, 04:08 PM   #2
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Sure, there are several good-to-great shows on network TV, albeit more on the sitcom side than on the drama one. But still, several shows that are likely to end up on all-time favorite show lists were network dramas. For instance, Alan Sepinwall's 2012 book The Revolution Was Televised walks the reader through the so-called golden age of television, and 4 of the 12 series that he discusses from the last 10 years or so were network shows.

As for sitcoms, the networks do them far better than cable does. Although I do watch a few cable sitcoms, they don't come close to the quality that the network ones do.
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Old 04-22-2013, 04:09 PM   #3
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This thread is predicated on any of us knowing exactly what it is you like about a show, since that's the criteria for it being "good".
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Old 04-22-2013, 04:16 PM   #4
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I don't like sitcoms, I don't like reality carp, and I find the "usual" CSI/legal/medical drama boring. Obviously, I'm not thrilled with network TV. I don't think the "decency rules" are a big factor, because they used to have good shows even with those rules. The rising costs do seem to be a factor. I've seen several shows that I liked get cancelled because the ratings weren't high enough for the show costs.
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Old 04-22-2013, 04:19 PM   #5
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This thread is predicated on any of us knowing exactly what it is you like about a show, since that's the criteria for it being "good".
That was mostly meant as a joke.

But shows like Mad Men, Breaking Bad, Sopranos, The Wire, Deadwood, Battlestar Galatica, etc... seem to typically come up on best of lists, and all seem to be shows that for one reason or another couldn't be successful on the broadcast network.

When they tried to capture some of the Mad Men mojo it was a pretty epic failure IIRC with Pan Am and The Playboy Club both being panned.
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Old 04-22-2013, 04:30 PM   #6
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Sure, there are several good-to-great shows on network TV, albeit more on the sitcom side than on the drama one. But still, several shows that are likely to end up on all-time favorite show lists were network dramas. For instance, Alan Sepinwall's 2012 book The Revolution Was Televised walks the reader through the so-called golden age of television, and 4 of the 12 series that he discusses from the last 10 years or so were network shows.

As for sitcoms, the networks do them far better than cable does. Although I do watch a few cable sitcoms, they don't come close to the quality that the network ones do.
Mind sharing the names of the good network shows?
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Old 04-22-2013, 04:36 PM   #7
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Currently airing?

24 and The West Wing come to mind but I'd have to scratch my head for "good" network shows currently airing. The Good Wife started with a good premise but turned into a courtroom procedural.
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Old 04-22-2013, 04:46 PM   #8
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I was just glancing at my list of favorite shows. All the comedies are network shows (except for 1 - Anger Management)

Almost all of the Dramas are Cable/Premium. The exceptions to that are Reality (Amazing Race, Survivor) or Revolution (not sure why i'm watching this) and Law & Order SVU (still recording, haven't watched one in months).
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Old 04-22-2013, 04:58 PM   #9
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I wish they'd come out with more shows like Columbo and McCloud where they weren't regular shows but ocassional movies-of-the-week. Am I remembering right - did Peter Falk die?
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Old 04-22-2013, 05:03 PM   #10
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I wish they'd come out with more shows like Columbo and McCloud where they weren't regular shows but ocassional movies-of-the-week. Am I remembering right - did Peter Falk die?
About a year ago, a long time ago there was footage of him confused in the street, had Alzheimer or something did not even remember Columbo anymore. Columbo and Cannon two of my favorite shows
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Old 04-22-2013, 05:10 PM   #11
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I wish they'd come out with more shows like Columbo and McCloud where they weren't regular shows but ocassional movies-of-the-week. Am I remembering right - did Peter Falk die?
Wallander seems to be that type of show, although certainly more serious than Columbo. Tom Sellek has also done a number of the Jesse Stone movies that are in the same vein I think, although I've only seen one of them so far.
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Old 04-22-2013, 05:16 PM   #12
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So I just found out that the show that prompted this thread, Falling Skies, is actually a TNT show, not a network show. We watched the pilot last night and it seemed to have most of the ticks that I associate with big network shows in recent history. Overly melodramatic music, thinly sketched characters, and generally a kind of too glossy feel. Guess I was wrong to blame that completely on the broadcast model though.
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Old 04-22-2013, 05:17 PM   #13
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Mind sharing the names of the good network shows?
Obviously, without knowing your tastes, these may not be for you. But currently, Parenthood on NBC is an excellent family drama. Hannibal, also on NBC, just started but is very promising and is a very cable-esque show. Supernatural, on the CW, is a niche genre show, but for the most part is very well-done. I would place those in the "very good" category. A step below that is something like Nashville, which is basically a night time soap with very high production values and excellent leads, but is geared more towards women. I enjoy it mainly because I'll watch Connie Britton do pretty much anything.

And then there was the recently concluded Fringe on Fox, which also a very good show.
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Old 04-22-2013, 05:25 PM   #14
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Obviously, without knowing your tastes, these may not be for you. But currently, Parenthood on NBC is an excellent family drama. Hannibal, also on NBC, just started but is very promising and is a very cable-esque show. Supernatural, on the CW, is a niche genre show, but for the most part is very well-done. I would place those in the "very good" category. A step below that is something like Nashville, which is basically a night time soap with very high production values and excellent leads, but is geared more towards women. I enjoy it mainly because I'll watch Connie Britton do pretty much anything.

And then there was the recently concluded Fringe on Fox, which also a very good show.
Thanks for the suggestions. Supernatural is actually one of my favorite shows, but I tend to think of CW as not really one of the big broadcast networks, but fair enough. I've seen an episode of Parenthood and Nashville, and didn't realize either of those were network shows (and I agree I'd watch Connie Britton do just about anything - which reminds me that FNL did start out as a network show right?)

I appreciate these suggestions, but I'm curious what were the 4 network shows that Alan Sepinwall highlighted?
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Old 04-22-2013, 05:39 PM   #15
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yes.. FNL was a NBC show. Really, it always aired on NBC for it's entire run. It's just in the last couple of years, it aired exclusively on a special DirectTV "channel" before it aired on NBC.
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Old 04-22-2013, 05:56 PM   #16
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Thanks for the suggestions. Supernatural is actually one of my favorite shows, but I tend to think of CW as not really one of the big broadcast networks, but fair enough. I've seen an episode of Parenthood and Nashville, and didn't realize either of those were network shows (and I agree I'd watch Connie Britton do just about anything - which reminds me that FNL did start out as a network show right?)

I appreciate these suggestions, but I'm curious what were the 4 network shows that Alan Sepinwall highlighted?
FNL was always an NBC show. DirecTV helped underwrite it for the last 3 seasons, and in doing so, got to air it first those seasons on a DTV-only channel (but it still aired on NBC).

The 4 network shows that Sepinwall included in his "golden age of TV" summary were Lost, Buffy the Vampire Slayer, 24, and Friday Night Lights. (The remaining 8 were The Sopranos, Oz, The Wire, Deadwood, The Shield, BSG, Mad Men, and Breaking Bad.)
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Old 04-22-2013, 06:38 PM   #17
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Southland started as a network show. Of course, it isn't any more. So, really, it doesn't quite count. But if you asked this question a few years ago, that would have been a good answer.
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Old 04-22-2013, 08:14 PM   #18
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FNL was always an NBC show. DirecTV helped underwrite it for the last 3 seasons, and in doing so, got to air it first those seasons on a DTV-only channel (but it still aired on NBC).

The 4 network shows that Sepinwall included in his "golden age of TV" summary were Lost, Buffy the Vampire Slayer, 24, and Friday Night Lights. (The remaining 8 were The Sopranos, Oz, The Wire, Deadwood, The Shield, BSG, Mad Men, and Breaking Bad.)
Interesting, there are only 2 shows on that list I don't care for, and both of them were network shows (Lost and 24). I haven't seen Oz yet, but love pretty much everything on the list.

FNL is an interesting one, because that was exactly the kind of show that it seems networks have been incapable of making. A show that is comfortable with long silences, character development over plot development, etc...

When I think about it, a lot of the shows that I've been disappointed in on the networks have been the bigger budget scifi action/dramas, most of which have been canceled pretty quickly. Makes me wonder if Allan is right, that because of the cost of production they need to attract a really big audience and so things get the mass appeal treatment, which ends up meaning they don't really appeal to anyone all that much?
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Old 04-22-2013, 10:02 PM   #19
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Supernatural

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Old 04-22-2013, 10:41 PM   #20
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That's such a loaded question. Even though I *have* to have cable (Premiere 4), the VAST majority of shows I watch are network TV shows. I think there are TONS of good network shows. Good meaning entertaining, some is admittedly lowbrow.

Heck, I know there have been a bunch of articles over the past few years talking about NOW being the "golden age of TV". Yes, I admit most of the shows I remember those articles talking about are/were cable shows, but I do think network dramas are often VERY high quality in terms of writing and/or production value. Heck, some shows nowadays (e.g. Revolution) are what I'd call movie quality at least in terms of production value, and B-movie quality in terms of plot.
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Old 04-22-2013, 10:44 PM   #21
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It is possible to have decent network dramas. They may not have the kick of a cable show, but they exist. As you say, sitcoms are where the networks rule. I watch a lot of sitcoms, both cable & network, and while I wouldn't say either rules, the networks have plenty of good ones.

Cable dramas have one advantage in that they can use language and settings that the networks can't. Also, they don't have to be as broad as a network drama. If the networks don't get 5 million+, it's a flop. So they go for the broader appeal. Cable dramas are happy with far smaller numbers, so they can niche-ify their product. So while it seems cable rules, in reality they have far more dramas, with the odds that one will appeal to you. So it seems that cable always has hit dramas, but in reality, they also have dramas you never watch (but someone does).

Shows like Banshee or Breaking Bad could never air on open channels. Not as is.

I just scrolled thru my SPs, and there aren't a lot of network dramas that I would call "great". I watch Criminal Minds and Mentalist and Blue Bloods and Revolution and Arrow and many more. They're all good, and fun to watch. But not high-minded dramas. Like Mad Men or GoT or Justified.

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Old 04-22-2013, 10:45 PM   #22
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Critically acclaimed network shows?

Pretty much The Good Wife. Nominated nearly every year for the big Emmy. Actor nominations galore. Unbelievable number of a-list guest stars. Tons of Wire actors have had guest shots. Moral ambiguity.

I would also throw in Parenthood. It's a crime it doesn't get recognition.
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Old 04-22-2013, 11:13 PM   #23
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When they tried to capture some of the Mad Men mojo it was a pretty epic failure IIRC with Pan Am and The Playboy Club both being panned.
IMO, for good reason.
I watched both pilots and they were pretty bad.
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Old 04-23-2013, 12:04 AM   #24
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Southland started as a network show. Of course, it isn't any more. So, really, it doesn't quite count. But if you asked this question during a very narrow six-week period a few years ago, that would have been a good answer.
FYP. Southland barely had time to get a cup of coffee while it was on NBC.

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When I think about it, a lot of the shows that I've been disappointed in on the networks have been the bigger budget scifi action/dramas, most of which have been canceled pretty quickly. Makes me wonder if Allan is right, that because of the cost of production they need to attract a really big audience and so things get the mass appeal treatment, which ends up meaning they don't really appeal to anyone all that much?
They don't have to attract big audiences because of their big budgets. They have to attract big audiences because they are on broadcast networks, which cancel anything that doesn't consistently get 5+ million viewers. The big budgets are simply because network suits don't know any better. They think more money equals a better show which equals more viewers, but instead that extra money ends up watering down their product and making it less appealing to everyone.
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Old 04-23-2013, 05:21 AM   #25
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CBS seems to recognize this and makes its shows appeal to the masses.

I used to watch CSI, never cared for BBT, and gave up on HIMYM in favor of cable and subscription shows. CBS's more traditional programming formula does work, however, and brings in tons of viewers and ad revenue.

None of those are critics favorites.
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Old 04-23-2013, 08:59 AM   #26
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I mentioned in another thread the same thing that the OP mentioned. That network TV is hamstrung by the constraints the FCC has put on them, based on morals setup 60 years ago. I get they need to because those airways are free, but it makes for less compelling TV unfortunately. At least it makes it harder for the networks to produce compelling TV. Perhaps that's why they feel they need big budgets and name actors.

That said, I agree as well that for sitcoms, the networks still do a better job. I've watched a few cable sitcoms and for the most part, they are bad. But dramas on network TV, at least the ones that are most successful or mostly "in the box" formula drama of the three major drama food groups, crime, law, and medical.

I do think even on cable that the dramas have a different feel based on the network. USA for example has dramas that feel more like Broadcast TV. Hardly any cursing (well more in the last couple of years, but not a lot), no real nudity, and lighter in feeling. FX dramas are a lot grittier and are closer to what the pay cable channels have. AMC is more character driven than the other two. Of course on the pay channels, pretty much anything goes.
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Old 04-23-2013, 09:12 AM   #27
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Critically acclaimed network shows?

Pretty much The Good Wife. Nominated nearly every year for the big Emmy. Actor nominations galore. Unbelievable number of a-list guest stars. Tons of Wire actors have had guest shots. Moral ambiguity.

I would also throw in Parenthood. It's a crime it doesn't get recognition.
We just started watching The Good Wife on Amazon Prime. It as been entertaining, but pretty formulaic. Haven't really seen much of the moral ambiguity yet, but we're only 4 or 5 episodes in I think.
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Old 04-23-2013, 09:48 AM   #28
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We just started watching The Good Wife on Amazon Prime. It as been entertaining, but pretty formulaic. Haven't really seen much of the moral ambiguity yet, but we're only 4 or 5 episodes in I think.
In the simplest sense, it's usually a 'Case of the Week' storyline from the law perspective, but the politics, corporate politics, interpersonal drama adds to the ongoing storyline.
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Old 04-23-2013, 10:40 AM   #29
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In the simplest sense, it's usually a 'Case of the Week' storyline from the law perspective, but the politics, corporate politics, interpersonal drama adds to the ongoing storyline.
Honestly, I thought this show was going to be more about her relationship with her husband. Unfortunately, it's become the case of the week with the usual in firm fighting that we've seen in every law show since the 80s. It's more and more becoming like LA Law than the political drama I was hoping for.

That said, I like the characters, so I'm still watching. But it's certainly not a must see.
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Old 04-23-2013, 06:21 PM   #30
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Alternate shows

I was completely fed up with almost everything on TV for a long time, it was so boring and predictable, but about year ago I cut the cable cord and built a HTPC. To my absolute delight I found a treasure trove of great shows from Britain and Canada that had never been shown (or shown very little) in the US.
Some were great some were only average but all were fresh, not just a rehash of something I'd already seen. Shows like QI, Would I Lie to You, Primeval, Rabbit Fall, Sherlock, and a bunch more. I still keep my Tivo for recording OTA stuff but that's about it.
Also keep in mind some shows are being made for Youtube, Battlestar Galactica Blood and Chrome, H+, Halo 4: Forward Unto Dawn, Drone, etc.
Netflix and Hulu are great but there are many other services and sites to get great content from.
Good luck in your quest to find decent shows to watch unfortunately I think it's going to get tougher and tougher.
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