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Old 05-28-2015, 12:28 PM   #1
billdz
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Wiring Mini to avoid V87 error?

Hello,

My new Mini keeps getting a V87 error. Usually there is normal picture and audio for 5-10 seconds, then the picture freezes, then the V87 error message appears. This is a MoCA connection, and all network settings appear to be correct. Network Diagnostic reports that the internet connection is "working correctly". The main DVR is a Roamio Plus, in my living room. The Mini is in the bedroom. The Actiontec MoCA adapter is in the office by the router.

Support suggested putting the Mini in the living room next to the Roamio, using a splitter to divide the input between the Roamio and the Mini, and putting the Mini output to a different HDMI port on the living room TV. I did this, and in this configuration, the Mini works as it should. Thus, the issue apparently involves the cabling to the bedroom.

I had not really thought the cabling could be an issue. The Mini was attached to the same coax to which my Xfinity box had been attached, and that box always worked fine. The Mini diagnostic said that the internet was connected correctly, and my router GUI verified that the Mini was on the LAN. So I'm not sure what's up. Xfinity installed my setup about 2 years ago, so the splitters and coax are fairly new. All I know is that the outside cable comes up the side of the house and into the attic. I assume that in the attic there is a 3-way splitter, with one cable to the office (where the router is located), one to the living room (where the Roamio is now), and one to the bedroom (where the Mini is now). I'll crawl around the attic after work to try to see what's up, but I may be out of luck or may need a professional installer.

Any thoughts?

Thanks,
b

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Old 05-28-2015, 02:23 PM   #2
fcfc2
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Originally Posted by billdz View Post
Hello,

My new Mini keeps getting a V87 error. Usually there is normal picture and audio for 5-10 seconds, then the picture freezes, then the V87 error message appears. This is a MoCA connection, and all network settings appear to be correct. Network Diagnostic reports that the internet connection is "working correctly". The main DVR is a Roamio Plus, in my living room. The Mini is in the bedroom. The Actiontec MoCA adapter is in the office by the router.

Support suggested putting the Mini in the living room next to the Roamio, using a splitter to divide the input between the Roamio and the Mini, and putting the Mini output to a different HDMI port on the living room TV. I did this, and in this configuration, the Mini works as it should. Thus, the issue apparently involves the cabling to the bedroom.

I had not really thought the cabling could be an issue. The Mini was attached to the same coax to which my Xfinity box had been attached, and that box always worked fine. The Mini diagnostic said that the internet was connected correctly, and my router GUI verified that the Mini was on the LAN. So I'm not sure what's up. Xfinity installed my setup about 2 years ago, so the splitters and coax are fairly new. All I know is that the outside cable comes up the side of the house and into the attic. I assume that in the attic there is a 3-way splitter, with one cable to the office (where the router is located), one to the living room (where the Roamio is now), and one to the bedroom (where the Mini is now). I'll crawl around the attic after work to try to see what's up, but I may be out of luck or may need a professional installer.

Any thoughts?

Thanks,
b
Hi,
This sounds like a MoCA / bandwidth problem in which the MoCA speed is too low to provide a stable signal to the mini. I don't know how Xfinity works but if it uses MoCA like Tivo...hard to say. D
Do you have a POE / Whole Home DVR filter on the input from the main house feed? If the first split is in the attic, that's where the filter should go on the input to the splitter. Non-MoCA amps, poor cabling and splitters, loose connectors, are the most likely cause of MoCA problems.
Terminate any open coax ports on splitters or coming out of the wall with a 75 ohm terminator, tighten all connections, replace any suspect cables or ends. If the problem persists, try replacing all splitters with MoCA rated ones.
You have pretty much ruled out a problem with the MoCA adapter and the mini's MoCA, so my best guess is that if you replace that first splitter with a MoCA rated one....and install the filter, you will be good.


Last edited by fcfc2; 05-28-2015 at 02:28 PM.
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Old 05-28-2015, 04:19 PM   #3
billdz
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OK thanks, went to the attic, there is one 1 to 3 splitter, input from the cable that comes from outside and output to the office (router), living room (Roamio), and bedroom (mini). The port labeled 3.5db goes to the router, the 7db ports go to the living room and bedroom. There are no open or loose ports, the coax and the splitter appear to be in decent condition. I do not have an external filter, as I was told it was unnecessary because the Ariss TM822G cable modem has a built in MoCA Immunity Filter.

At the splitter, I reversed the coax connections going to the living room and the bedroom, so if there was anything wrong with the splitter the bedroom should have started working and the living room should have started getting the V87. But the situation stayed the same, V87 only in bedroom.

Does the Mini require a faster connection than the Xfinity box? As mentioned, the Xfinity box is working fine in the bedroom. Is there any easy way to measure the MoCa speed/bandwidth? Then I could compare bedroom speed with living room speed.

Based on the fact that switching the splitter outputs had no effect, at this point I can only assume that the problem is somewhere in the coax between the splitter and the bedroom. I'm in trouble if this is the case, because this coax goes through walls and beams and would be tough to replace.

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File Type: jpg splitter.jpg (45.0 KB, 25 views)
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Old 05-28-2015, 09:13 PM   #4
bfollowell
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To me, that splitter looks a little iffy. I guess looking old and dirty doesn't mean it isn't working but, it looks questionable to me. Depending on if you have any other splitters anywhere in your system, those could be causing enough signal drop to cause you some problems. Personally, I don't like splitters like this. I like splitting everything right at the main demarc point for my house and using a unity amp/splitter, so that there is no signal loss to any of the branches. Of course, sometimes, especially in older homes, you're much more limited to what you can do.

For me, I found MoCA to be problematic at best, at least for any streaming. Viewing recorded shows or live TV from my main Roamio, I don't think I ever experienced a problem and it was very rock solid. Streaming content was really hiccuppy and would often just crash out altogether.

I should mention that my house is brand new, just completed last fall, with RG-6 and CAT6 ran everywhere from a centralized demarc point/network closet. I figured I'd give MoCA a try since my coax splitter/amp was MoCA compatible and it would keep a lot of traffic off my main data network. It just never worked out all that well for me though, so I finally switched my mini over to Ethernet and have never looked back. Everything is rock solid, no hiccups on anything, and it doesn't seem to drag my network down in the slightest.

I know a lot of people praise and swear by MoCA, and I'm glad it works for them, but, if you're having troubles, and Ethernet is an option, you might be better off giving it a try.

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Old 05-29-2015, 12:06 AM   #5
billdz
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Don't have an Ethernet connection anywhere near the bedroom, so that's not really an option.

I noticed the splitter looked a little old and dirty and suspected it, but isn't the splitter ruled out as the source of the problem by the fact that reversing the bedroom and living room connections failed to solve the bedroom situation? We know there is a fast enough connection from the splitter to the living room so, if the splitter was the problem, reversing the connections would have meant a good signal in the bedroom and a V87 error in the living room, but that didn't happen.

Is there any way to measure the connection speed?

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Old 05-29-2015, 06:32 AM   #6
break19
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Originally Posted by billdz View Post
Don't have an Ethernet connection anywhere near the bedroom, so that's not really an option.

I noticed the splitter looked a little old and dirty and suspected it, but isn't the splitter ruled out as the source of the problem by the fact that reversing the bedroom and living room connections failed to solve the bedroom situation? We know there is a fast enough connection from the splitter to the living room so, if the splitter was the problem, reversing the connections would have meant a good signal in the bedroom and a V87 error in the living room, but that didn't happen.

Is there any way to measure the connection speed?
I was a CATV tech for 5 years.

That splitter is likely fine, you should also remove the wall plate for the room in question, and inspect the connection behind it.

Those connectors look a little suspect to me actually, and if I were working there, the VERY first thing I'd do is replace them with brand new compression-style fittings.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ITMpWqVeRSE

Also, any unused lines should have little 75ohm terminators installed on them, or disconnected completely, (If you do this, you should change out the splitter, or terminate the unused legs of said splitter) as this can be a way for stray EMF to get into your network.

Also, you should be -sure- there isn't another splitter hidden between the one you see and the room in question.

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Old 05-29-2015, 08:31 AM   #7
fcfc2
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Originally Posted by billdz View Post
OK thanks, went to the attic, there is one 1 to 3 splitter, input from the cable that comes from outside and output to the office (router), living room (Roamio), and bedroom (mini). The port labeled 3.5db goes to the router, the 7db ports go to the living room and bedroom. There are no open or loose ports, the coax and the splitter appear to be in decent condition. I do not have an external filter, as I was told it was unnecessary because the Ariss TM822G cable modem has a built in MoCA Immunity Filter.

At the splitter, I reversed the coax connections going to the living room and the bedroom, so if there was anything wrong with the splitter the bedroom should have started working and the living room should have started getting the V87. But the situation stayed the same, V87 only in bedroom.

Does the Mini require a faster connection than the Xfinity box? As mentioned, the Xfinity box is working fine in the bedroom. Is there any easy way to measure the MoCa speed/bandwidth? Then I could compare bedroom speed with living room speed.

Based on the fact that switching the splitter outputs had no effect, at this point I can only assume that the problem is somewhere in the coax between the splitter and the bedroom. I'm in trouble if this is the case, because this coax goes through walls and beams and would be tough to replace.
Hi again,
You do need a filter on the input to the main splitter, whoever told you this was not necessary is badly mistaken. While you don't need the filter for your modem, you will keep the MoCA frequencies and your network private and prevent interference on your neighbors' lines. This will also enhance the MoCA signal on your system which it apparently needs.
While the 3 way splitter may be Ok, it looks like it has been through the war to me, and I would absolutely replace it with a MoCA rated splitter given that you are having problems. Also as advised, check those outlets and see if there are any hidden 2way splitters feeding adjacent rooms.
Sources for MoCA rated splitters:
https://teleproducts.verizon.com/fio...fm/eh/ShowCart
and
http://www.techtoolsupply.com/Search...atv+moca+rated
Cheapest place for POE / Whole Home DVR filters is ebay
http://www.ebay.com/itm/5-Pieces-MoC...item2344277b9c

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Old 05-29-2015, 09:10 AM   #8
billdz
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Does the Mini require more speed/bandwidth than the Roamio? Just now I moved the Roamio to the bedroom, and the Roamio works perfectly on the same cable on which the Mini is not working.

The coax to the living room is the white RG-6. The coax to the bedroom is the black TFC T10. I don't suppose the black coax is lossier than the white?

Is there any kind of amplifier I can use to boost the signal to the bedroom?

@fcfc2 - thanks, filter ordered.
@break19 - thanks for the video, I will change the connectors if I can borrow those tools, which are quite pricey.

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Old 05-29-2015, 09:27 AM   #9
break19
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The Roamio isn't getting its information on moca, but is just getting standard radio transmission. Think of moca like putting an envelope inside another envelope, and then mailing it, vs just mailing the original... There is, indeed, slightly higher overhead when using moca, as opposed to just receiving standard tv/cable signals. Though normally, all things considered, it's not enough to cause an issue,however if your coax is iffy, the extra overhead could very well cause the situations you are describing, but without a proper test set, you'd be hard pressed to find where. You might be able to replace the existing branch of coax by attaching a new one, and pulling it in using the old one, once you've established that nothing else will fix it.

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Old 05-29-2015, 09:44 AM   #10
fcfc2
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Originally Posted by billdz View Post
Does the Mini require more speed/bandwidth than the Roamio? Just now I moved the Roamio to the bedroom, and the Roamio works perfectly on the same cable on which the Mini is not working.

The coax to the living room is the white RG-6. The coax to the bedroom is the black TFC T10. I don't suppose the black coax is lossier than the white?

Is there any kind of amplifier I can use to boost the signal to the bedroom?

@fcfc2 - thanks, filter ordered.
@break19 - thanks for the video, I will change the connectors if I can borrow those tools, which are quite pricey.
Hi again,
Just in case you missed it, that filter link was for 5 units, a lifetime supply...also there are MoCA compatible amps, but I would try just adding the filter and switching the main splitter before investing in one of those as they are a bit pricey
http://www.pctstore.com/RF_amplifier...pctvcf14an.htm
Replacing the connectors on the coax might be a good idea but because you will need the proper connectors, a compression tool, and a coax stripper, I would try the easiest / cheapest fixes first. By the way, taking a pencil with an eraser and spinning it down over the center conductor of a coax cable until it becomes bright and shiney can sometimes bring new life into a corroded cable.

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Old 05-29-2015, 01:48 PM   #11
billdz
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On further reflection, I was totally wrong in thinking that reversing the bedroom (Mini) and living room (Roamio) coax connections on the splitter would isolate the problem. The Mini requires a wired connection to the Roamio, so the entire coax run between the 2 devices is at issue, and reversing the splitter connections did not change anything.

Only we know is that the Mini works if connected to the Roamio with a 3' jumper. The coax run from the Roamio to the splitter is 65', and the coax from the Mini to the splitter is also 65', for a total of 130'. Is that typical or longer than average?

Anyhow, looks like there is nothing more to try until the new filter and splitter arrive.

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Old 05-29-2015, 02:04 PM   #12
fcfc2
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On further reflection, I was totally wrong in thinking that reversing the bedroom (Mini) and living room (Roamio) coax connections on the splitter would isolate the problem. The Mini requires a wired connection to the Roamio, so the entire coax run between the 2 devices is at issue, and reversing the splitter connections did not change anything.

Only we know is that the Mini works if connected to the Roamio with a 3' jumper. The coax run from the Roamio to the splitter is 65', and the coax from the Mini to the splitter is also 65', for a total of 130'. Is that typical or longer than average?

Anyhow, looks like there is nothing more to try until the new filter and splitter arrive.
The distance involved is not an issue and is well within the specs for MoCA approximately 300 ft outer limit. If you are dying to get something working, Home Depot carries splitters atleast 4 way and 2 way, I would get the one rated for 2GHz and those 75 ohm terminators are about $4 for 10. Pencils with erasers are not too hard to find. And if the splitter doesn't work, they take returns.

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Old 05-29-2015, 02:08 PM   #13
billdz
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Thanks, does it matter if the splitter is "balanced" (-5.5db on all ports) or "unbalanced" (-3.5db on one and -7db on the others)?

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Old 05-29-2015, 02:20 PM   #14
fcfc2
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Thanks, does it matter if the splitter is "balanced" (-5.5db on all ports) or "unbalanced" (-3.5db on one and -7db on the others)?
I don't think it matters that much but if you get the unbalanced one use the 3.5db port for the mini where you are having trouble with the signal.

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Old 05-29-2015, 02:55 PM   #15
billdz
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It's working! Glad I asked that last question. I had assumed the router had to be where it was, on the -3.5db port. Switched the -3.5db port to the Mini and bingo, problem solved (knock on wood). No freezing for 30 minutes so far.

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Old 05-29-2015, 09:08 PM   #16
fcfc2
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It's working! Glad I asked that last question. I had assumed the router had to be where it was, on the -3.5db port. Switched the -3.5db port to the Mini and bingo, problem solved (knock on wood). No freezing for 30 minutes so far.
Yeah! But I would still replace that splitter and add the filter. If you have any picture quality issues later consider investing in the recommended amp.

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Old 05-29-2015, 11:24 PM   #17
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It's working! Glad I asked that last question. I had assumed the router had to be where it was, on the -3.5db port. Switched the -3.5db port to the Mini and bingo, problem solved (knock on wood). No freezing for 30 minutes so far.
Excellent! I'm glad you got it working. I agree with the other sentiments though, as far as changing the splitter, adding a filter and terminators to any unused ports, etc. Those are relatively cheap insurance and can only tighten your system.

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