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Old 03-20-2013, 12:06 AM   #91
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Depends on how everything is connected though. He maid it sound like he may have previously been using wifi for his TiVo, so he may not have had Ethernet run to the 4 tuner box. Although since that leg of the network is only used for the internet connection he probably could have just used the wifi adapter anyway. Although there was no need since the FIOS routers have MoCa built in.

Explaining this kind of networking to a layman is difficult. Unless they want to understand how it works, which most don't, they'll hook it up however they're told until it does work and then just assume that's the best/only way.
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Old 03-20-2013, 05:46 AM   #92
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For me, it had the opposite effect.
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Old 03-20-2013, 07:32 AM   #93
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Ed Baig's half-page review in today's USA Today, Page 2B.


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Old 03-20-2013, 08:52 AM   #94
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There they go talking about a MoCA adapter again. Which is not needed. If you already have a four tuner Premiere connected to Ethernet, you only need to turn on MoCA on the P4 and connect the coax cable to the Mini and set it up for MoCA. The writer mentioned how he was on FiOS and didn't need an adapter because of that. They don't seem to understand that a MoCA adapter is not needed for the use of a Mini. Since you need a P4 to use the Mini and the P4 and Mini both have MoCA.
The MoCA adapter may be needed if you don't have your P4 near an Ethernet jack and you're not using FiOS. I think that is probably the case for most cable subscribers. One MoCA adapter was needed in my setup.

And this writer says "you'll likely have to purchase a MoCA adapter" and doesn't state that you'll need 2 of them like some other articles.
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Old 03-21-2013, 09:04 AM   #95
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A lot of the math I see in these forums figure in that units with lifetime retain good value and can be sold on Ebay, Craigslist, etc. I don't feel comfortable selling anything via such avenues personally but I do hate monthly fees so I still get lifetime anyway. If you hold onto unit long enough (3+ years) you save money vs cable company, but saving money is not my primary motivation for going with TiVo, so I don't recommend TiVo to anyone looking to cut costs.
Actually, you need to insert "likely based on historical data" in that sentence. There are two variables that can totally change that equation.

1) If the unit fails and requires repair/replacement.

2) If current trends reduce the resale value proposition of existing Tivos. For example, if the mini is truly a gamechanger for Tivo, then HD values just went down because it makes them less attractive. You can't stream from them, can't use a mini with them, etc. I'm not saying this is definite, or even likely. I'm also not saying it's impossible, or unlikely. Rental property in my area used to be hot until back in the '80s when depreciation rules were changed. Nothing is promised just because it has been that way for a while.

And the other thing which is a big deal for so many people is the capital investment up front. Whether we want to admit it or not, shelling out possibly $1300 up front for two boxes with lifetime, plus monthly cablecard costs, is a big deal to most families when they can get them both (1 free, one for $19.95, no cablecard fees) and no worries about box maintenance, etc.

Two other things. Just now, VZ has a new upgraded DVR enroute to me to replace my 2007 vintage moto VZ box - at not a penny of cost to me. That's to make me compatible with changes to their network. Tivo will never do that.

And I also agree that cost is NOT the reason to use Tivo. I certainly use it for some of the features and capabilities, IN SPITE of the cost. Not because of the cost. There is nothing wrong with that.
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Old 03-21-2013, 09:10 AM   #96
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Seems like mixed reviews....

http://techcrunch.com/2013/03/11/for...tivo-premiere/

Not everybody is in love with the cost at least.
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Old 03-21-2013, 09:22 AM   #97
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Seems like mixed reviews....

http://techcrunch.com/2013/03/11/for...tivo-premiere/

Not everybody is in love with the cost at least.
I agreed with this reviewer's opinions, especially the last line: "TiVo better, as they say, stop nickel and diming its remaining subscribers before they jump off the overpriced TiVo bandwagon."

I'll be interested to see what happens with Mini sales over time. There's a core group of hardcore Tivo fans who will happily pay whatever price Tivo asks for their hardware and, as we have seen at TCF, are chomping at the bit to purchase on the first day of availability.

But what will happen once those fans have completed their purchases? I expect to see an sales initial spike followed by a flat line hovering near zero.

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Old 03-21-2013, 11:15 AM   #98
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And you can see an underlying theme in the reviews - no one thinks the fee is justified but are willing to concede that the lifetime $250 price is competitive in the marketplace. Problem is, there are a lot of people that won't buy Tivo because of fees and the Mini makes them look even worse regardless of whether the total price is fair. Just look at the comments in the Cnet review.
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Old 03-21-2013, 12:53 PM   #99
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I just confirmed without doubt that the minis get their guide data from the host TiVo, not on their own. I found out because my P4 was missing guide data for all channels between 1008 and 1600 (Mostly HD digital package type channels). I called my cable co. many times in the last few days thinking the cards weren't paired right because when I went to the cablecard settings screen and tried to preview channels it said I couldn't because I had no digital channels available, even though I could tune and watch them normally. The kicker was that if I went to the tuning adapter menu instead, I could preview the channels there.

After installing the minis, I noticed they exhibited the same behavior, no guide info for the same channels. Well yesterday I remembered when I initially setup the P4 that I skipped the cablecard activation portion (it said you could) when doing the GS and activated the card later on. So I decided to do GS again and this time when it asked my provider I said "I wasn't sure" so it asked me about a certain channel number which I confirmed and off it went calling in and downloading info, etc.

Once it was done I checked the guide and voila', there was the guide data for all my channels, but the point being and confirming is that I never once did a thing on any of the minis but when I went back to them, they each played the little TiVo cartoon again like they were just setup or something and now their guide data is correct as well.

These TiVo minis are just parasites sucking life out of and living off of their host! So remind me, what's that extra $5.99/ month or $149 lifetime for again???

....but I actually do like them, a lot :/ (just not the added costs)
Dave

P.S. - Maybe everyone knew this already, but I was under the assumption that the way they justified their monthly fee was because it was autonomous in that regard.

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Old 03-21-2013, 03:35 PM   #100
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The mini gets the program guide from the host TiVo, because that is the box it uses to tune live TV. Whatever that box has for a channel list is what you will see on the Mini. The Mini has no need for its own guide data, because it can't record anything on its own.

What's next? A monthly fee for the TiVo remote control?
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Old 03-21-2013, 03:39 PM   #101
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Thanks. I knew "technically" how it works, I just thought since it has it's own ethernet and connection to the internet that it dialed out to TiVo headend itself and collected the info it needed.

Hey, the cable co's used to, and some may still do, charge for remote control rentals
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Old 03-21-2013, 03:45 PM   #102
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It may get the info from TiVo's servers when it dials in, but the info is still coming from the host TiVo. I don't think anyone knows for sure. It does get software updates and graphics files from TiVo. But I still don't see how a monthly fee is justified. Anyway, the topic of the fees has been beat to death.

I'm keeping my $6.95/month Premiere for now.
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Old 03-21-2013, 03:59 PM   #103
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Agreed!
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Old 03-21-2013, 05:27 PM   #104
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The "fee" has really nothing to do with services provided. The "fee" has to do with TiVo wanting to get a specific dollar amount for the Mini. In this case $250.

The problem with a $250 price point on the Mini is that it is more expensive then the base price on a 2 tuner TiVo @ $149.

By adding the service fee they can advertise the Mini @ $99, $50 less then a TiVo. Also, they can advertise it with a lower service fee than a full TiVo $5.99 vs. $14.99 ($150 vs $399 with MSO)

At the end of the day, they want $250 for the Mini. However you slice it, what ever argument you want to make - that is the price they placed on it. They just gave you different meathods to get there.

Lets compare the true advertised prices:

Mini----------- $250
Premiere------- $600 ($500 MSO)
Premiere 4----- $750 ($650 MSO)
Premiere 4XL -- $900 ($800 MSO)

Looking at it this way, you can see that the Mini is a significant discount over even the least expensive Premier DVR. And a great option for adding anoter access node - especially in a minumal use room, like a bedroom.
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Last edited by bradleys : 03-22-2013 at 09:33 AM. Reason: Edited to remove any reference to the head of the cabinet in France or Italy or certain other countries.
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Old 03-21-2013, 06:09 PM   #105
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I don't understand how someone can make 849 posts on a TiVo forum, and not know how to spell the word PREMIERE.

Yes, a Mini costs half as much as a Premiere. But a Premiere has two tuners, does OTA, and has a crappy Netflix app. So there's that. TiVo is pretty much stuck because of their monthly/lifetime service fees. Too late to go back to $999 DVRs with no fees at this point...

Edited to add: The Premiere is twice as much, but that doesn't help if you don't already have a 4-tuner box. Then you would have to spend a whole lot more to even use a Mini. People are going to see the prices and run away.

This is from someone who paid $1000 for a Premiere Elite with Lifetime the week it came out.
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Old 03-21-2013, 06:23 PM   #106
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Sounds like someone is bitter. The nagging about "premiere" vs "premier" is like watching amateur hour or open mic night. News flash, no one (other than you apparently) cares if someone spells it one way or the other.
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Old 03-21-2013, 06:24 PM   #107
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I just ordered a mini to replace a 2 tuner Premiere in my bedroom. I use the bedroom TV to fall asleep. 10-20 minutes and I'm done, so the Tivo mini fits my needs perfectly. Yeah, it cost me $250 but it should last indefinitely and I'll sell the never used Premiere for more than the mini costs.
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Old 03-21-2013, 06:35 PM   #108
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Sounds like someone is bitter. The nagging about "premiere" vs "premier" is like watching amateur hour or open mic night. News flash, no one (other than you apparently) cares if someone spells it one way or the other.
So, are we alllllowwweeed to just maaakeee up new speeeelings for wooooooooords now?

Or can we use the actual words that things are actually called? The box says "Premiere" on it. It does not say "Premier" anywhere.

The two words mean different things. A premier is a head of state. A premiere is a newly released film. Which do you think TiVo had in mind when they named the thing?
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Old 03-21-2013, 07:05 PM   #109
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It could have been a misprint and they stuck with it afterwards.

Anyway I've been pleased with my tow Minis the last week. I put lifetime service on them on Tuesday and Wednesday(It would only let me do one a day online), so now I'm covered. If a new Mini comes out in a few years I'll sell these for the new ones. And I still have my $6.95 a month Premiere which is OTA only now. Of course I should have put lifetime on it, but that was the only launch Premiere out of the eight I ordered that didn't have lifetime.
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Old 03-21-2013, 07:13 PM   #110
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So, are we alllllowwweeed to just maaakeee up new speeeelings for wooooooooords now?

Or can we use the actual words that things are actually called? The box says "Premiere" on it. It does not say "Premier" anywhere.

The two words mean different things. A premier is a head of state. A premiere is a newly released film. Which do you think TiVo had in mind when they named the thing?
You are correct and if this was a different form you analyses would greatly appreciate, but this form is to give TiVo users information, and on this forum I don't think anybody would think spelling of the TP would be confusing enough to think we a getting a head of state as opposed to a DVR. (get the guest bedroom ready honey, we are getting company from Best Buy when I return with the premier)
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Old 03-21-2013, 07:56 PM   #111
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Okay, one more and then I promise I'll stop.

This is a FORUM, not a FORM.


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Old 03-22-2013, 12:08 AM   #112
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All that passion because I dropped an e? Sorry if I ruined your day!

I think my point was clear, and I promise to be more careful not to offend you in the future.

I purchased the S3 the first Christmas it came out... Full price - $800 before lifetime service! I don't have a P4 either and will wait until the PremierE line has an upgraded chipset before buying it.

My point is and was - the Mini is half the price of a two tuner PremierE and frankly has half the functionality. If it makes more sense for you to purchase a full unit, then by all means do it. Both options will give you the "whole home experience" TiVo is advertising.

Both options are expensive, but I do understand the pricing model.
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Old 03-22-2013, 06:27 AM   #113
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But a lot of other people don't understand the model for the Mini. Bottom line.
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Old 03-22-2013, 09:28 AM   #114
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But a lot of other people don't understand the model for the Mini. Bottom line.
I realize that the service fee is confusing. I suspect, from TiVo's perspective they felt offering a tiered payment option that allows them to offer a lower base price then a 2 tuner Premiere was less confusing.

It would be hard to describe why a full 2 tuner premiere is $150 and a dumb extender is $250!

I do not own a Mini and I am not going to buy one until the chipset in the Premiere DVR's are upgraded - but I do understand the pricing model.

At that point, I will seriously consider dropping say $1000 on a 6 tuner DVR and bundle in two $250 Mini's.
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Old 03-22-2013, 09:36 AM   #115
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Both options will give you the "whole home experience" TiVo is advertising.
Not really. Whole home is not achieved with 2 Premiere boxes. They can use cooperative scheduling or an integrated now playing list. You have to know which box has the recording and you have to manage scheduling of shows and conflicts between boxes.
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Old 03-22-2013, 10:22 AM   #116
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Not really. Whole home is not achieved with 2 Premiere boxes. They can use cooperative scheduling or an integrated now playing list. You have to know which box has the recording and you have to manage scheduling of shows and conflicts between boxes.
If cooperative scheduling is an important part of your definition of "whole home experience" then of course you are correct.

If having tuners available at each node, being able to start watching one show in one room and finish watching in another, or the ability to watch copy protected content freely throughout the home is your definition - then any Premiere box meets the need.

I started a thread a while back criticizing TiVo for advertising a whole home solution without the extender on the market. I meant it in a rather light hearted way - my point was that they kind of jumped the gun with the marketing.

But during that conversation, several TCF members made very good arguments that any Premiere line TiVo can accomplish the “whole home” experience if you are willing to pay the premium.

Since my now teenage children watch and record completely different shows then I do, a consolidated NPL isn’t something that really interests me at the moment. However, I have long said that a huge differentiator for TiVo would be pooled dynamic tuners.

But I am not sure (for me) that the definition of a “whole home” solution fails, because it does not exist. Practical? That is a different conversation.
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Old 03-22-2013, 01:05 PM   #117
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The two words mean different things. A premier is a head of state. A premiere is a newly released film. Which do you think TiVo had in mind when they named the thing?
Maybe they meant that the premier(e) is the head of all of their technology. The leader in their stack....

Who cares? There are SO MANY other spelling and grammatical errors on this site that dropping a final e is no more terrible than calling a unit a THD, etc.
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Old 03-22-2013, 01:23 PM   #118
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Who cares?
apparentlee noebodie kayrz. aisle just maik up meye oawn werdz tue.
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Old 03-22-2013, 01:23 PM   #119
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...However, I have long said that a huge differentiator for TiVo would be pooled dynamic tuners...
Yeah it would be pretty cool if they came out with something similar to the HDHomerun Prime and then you just deployed something like the minis at each TV to access those tuners dynamically!
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Old 03-22-2013, 01:37 PM   #120
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Yes, I'm just discovering the lack of dynamic tuner allocation on the mini. It effectively means the permanent loss of a tuner on the XL4/P4 if you ever want live TV via the mini. Actually, the loss of 1 tuner per mini. This is not really disclosed by Tivo in their marketing, and frankly sales people and tech people at Tivo are incorrectly describing it (I have ticket numbers as proof). I honestly think that this tuner loss is a serious constraint, and will prevent the mini from truly allowing a whole home solution that Tivo so desperately wants and needs to remain competitive.
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