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Old 05-19-2013, 01:59 PM   #1
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Doctor Who - The Name Of The Doctor - OAD 05/18/2013

Very interesting episode. Lots of recalls to the previous Doctors.

Spoiler:
I am wondering how the big reveal will turn out for next season. Based on some of what I have read about what John Hurt is playing, will the next season be based on the Time War?

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Old 05-19-2013, 02:06 PM   #2
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I thought this was a very good episode but every episode with Strax is a good episode.

I totally didn't expect John Hurt as the Doctor at the end. Is he the 13th?
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Old 05-19-2013, 02:16 PM   #3
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I think he is the post-8th/pre-9th regeneration. Responsible for the mass genocide that ended the Time War, and ("Introducing John Hurt as The Doctor" placard notwithstanding), due to his actions not technically considered a "Doctor" so Eccleston still remains the 9th "Doctor." I think the 50th Anniversary episode will explore the Time War and will feature Hurt prominently, but I don't think he's a replacement for Matt Smith - when the next season resumes we'll either be back to Smith or have a new 12th.
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Old 05-19-2013, 02:33 PM   #4
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I loved it! Clara explained, Strax & Co, lots of references to past stories/characters and a hell of an ending. That was so much better than what we've been getting this season.
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Old 05-19-2013, 02:48 PM   #5
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Yeah introducing him as "the Doctor" seemed contrary to what was just said in dialogue.

Strax was great as always:

Strax: They are unarmed, we can take them!
Jenny: We are also unarmed
Strax: Do not divulge our military secrets!
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Old 05-19-2013, 02:51 PM   #6
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I think he is the post-8th/pre-9th regeneration. Responsible for the mass genocide that ended the Time War, and ("Introducing John Hurt as The Doctor" placard notwithstanding), due to his actions not technically considered a "Doctor" so Eccleston still remains the 9th "Doctor." I think the 50th Anniversary episode will explore the Time War and will feature Hurt prominently, but I don't think he's a replacement for Matt Smith - when the next season resumes we'll either be back to Smith or have a new 12th.
That seems to be the predominant theory online as to what Hurt's role is going to be.

As far as Smith goes, he has already said that
Spoiler:
he's going to return for series 8, so no new doctor to kick off the season. I suppose a regeneration could happen mid-season though.


I thought it was a very good episode with Strax being great as always. I just wish they would have used the season to put some depth into Clara's character prior to her sacrifice. She's definitely gorgeous though.
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Old 05-19-2013, 03:10 PM   #7
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Gee, I never saw that Clara explanation coming...
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Old 05-19-2013, 03:34 PM   #8
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I thought this was a very good episode but every episode with Strax is a good episode.

I totally didn't expect John Hurt as the Doctor at the end. Is he the 13th?
There was an episode long ago, Tom Baker was the doctor, just prior tho Tom banner being elected the president of the time Lord's to which he left again. If memory serves he was on trial on Galifrey. It was rebelled during that episode that the last doctor was to be move evil than the Master.
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Old 05-19-2013, 03:36 PM   #9
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The Clara reveal would have been better if they set it up more. The Doctor had only encountered Clara twice before, so she did not seem super special just from number of encounters (River was encountered many times more than that). Of course, they did the ret-con that Clara was around all the time but the Doctor did not know. If only they could have somehow introduced that plot point prior to the reveal that Clara jumped into the Doctor's timeline.

I agree that the whole "John Hurt as the Doctor" thing seemed absurd when the dialog just a few seconds before made a point of saying that he was not "the Doctor". It would have been better if the text said something like "John Hurt, not as the Doctor"
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Old 05-19-2013, 03:36 PM   #10
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I love that River conjures of some champagne instead of having tea
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Old 05-19-2013, 03:48 PM   #11
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We know that the Doctor has been "the Doctor" ever since Hartnell. The dialogue indicated that the name of "the Doctor" was something chosen, which would mean that it was done no later than The Aztecs. And the context of the dialogue indicated that the Doctor chose the name as a promise to himself after some unspeakable circumstances.

Kooky theory: John Hurt's character is the man we call the Doctor BEFORE we meet Hartnell, meaning that while Hartnell may still be "the first Doctor", he is not the first incarnation of the Time Lord we've followed for 50 years.

Huge onions on Moffet if this is even close to being true, but I could see some great storytelling in this: what if, after whatever happened to make him change his identity to become the Doctor, he then has to do the same thing again in the Time War?
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Old 05-19-2013, 03:54 PM   #12
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There was an episode long ago, Tom Baker was the doctor, just prior tho Tom banner being elected the president of the time Lord's to which he left again. If memory serves he was on trial on Galifrey. It was rebelled during that episode that the last doctor was to be move evil than the Master.
That was the Valeyard that the GI mentioned.
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Old 05-19-2013, 04:22 PM   #13
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So does this mean that the Silence were good? That they were trying to prevent the Doctor from opening the tomb at Trenzalore; trying to prevent the GI from corrupting his time stream? I'm still not sure I understand how they fit into all of this.
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Old 05-19-2013, 04:25 PM   #14
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That was the Valeyard that the GI mentioned.
I don't remember if the Valeyard was mentioned during Tom Bakers run but he appeared during the trial of Colin Baker. He was mentioned in this show.

As for the show. Wow. Great twist on Clara. Well done. Never saw anything like that speculated.
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Old 05-19-2013, 04:44 PM   #15
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So does this mean that the Silence were good? That they were trying to prevent the Doctor from opening the tomb at Trenzalore; trying to prevent the GI from corrupting his time stream? I'm still not sure I understand how they fit into all of this.
I'm not following you here.
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Old 05-19-2013, 04:44 PM   #16
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So does this mean that the Silence were good? That they were trying to prevent the Doctor from opening the tomb at Trenzalore; trying to prevent the GI from corrupting his time stream? I'm still not sure I understand how they fit into all of this.
This was not the fulfillment of the Silence prophecy. This was simply an event that also took place on Trenzalore. In the event that the prophecy refers to, the Doctor's name will be revealed; this time it wasn't.
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Old 05-19-2013, 05:08 PM   #17
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I don't remember if the Valeyard was mentioned during Tom Bakers run but he appeared during the trial of Colin Baker. He was mentioned in this show.

As for the show. Wow. Great twist on Clara. Well done. Never saw anything like that speculated.
Yes, I'm aware that the trial with the Valeyard was in Colin Baker's time rather than Tom Baker's. I figured the OP had that incorrect and decided to let it slide.
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Old 05-19-2013, 05:31 PM   #18
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I'm not following you here.
From a wiki (http://tardis.wikia.com/wiki/The_Silence):

Quote:
The Silence was a religious order who considered themselves the "Sentinels of History". They tried to kill the Doctor to prevent the fruition of a specific prophecy, which stated: "On the fields of Trenzalore, at the fall of the eleventh, when no living creature can speak falsely or fail to answer, a Question will be asked, a question that must never, ever be answered."

This question was "The First Question, the oldest question in the Universe, that must never be answered, hidden in plain sight." Dorium Maldovar told the Eleventh Doctor that the question was: "Doctor Who?", which was a question the Doctor had been apparently running from his entire life.
We had Trenzalore. We had the fall of the eleventh ("how are we going to get down? Jump?" "No, we're going to fall"). We had the Question, posed by the GI. We had all the living people fail to answer (River was not alive). It seems like the events of the prophecy to me, or close enough. And if the Silence were trying to prevent it, it seems like maybe they were trying to thwart the GI and therefore were actually good.

And if the answer is John Hurt, and the question is the first and oldest question in the universe, then maybe he's not the non-Doctor between 8 and 9, after all; maybe he's pre-1.
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Last edited by danterner : 05-19-2013 at 05:38 PM.
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Old 05-19-2013, 05:44 PM   #19
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Excellent episode! It was so good it even made other episodes better. The episode we thought was a throwaway one ended up becoming important as Clara remembered what had happened in the alternate timeline. I'm even wondering if it means Clara knows the Doctor's name.

In the promo, she said she knew the Doctor's greatest secret, but that could have been misdirection and simply meant that she knew that his greatest secret was his name, not what his name actually was.

It was good to see post-Library River, although if the Doctor told Clara that she was dead, I wonder if that meant that the 11th Doctor was the only Doctor River ever met not counting the one encounter with #10. The Doctor wouldn't consider River to be dead until he decided to stop visiting her. But I suppose there's always chance encounters, hence River's mention of "spoilers" before smiling and fading out at the end.

Another interesting thing is that Clara didn't recognize River. I assumed that it was River who had given Clara the "tech support" phone number in the first episode. But Clara didn't even say, "You look familiar. Have we met before?" when she saw her. I suppose River could have been in disguise or maybe Clara just doesn't remember. How may store clerks' faces do we remember, after all?

I also agree with people about the "John Hurt as the Doctor" message. Even ignoring the fact that it contradicted what had just been said, who needed to know that? Someone who did not recognize John Hurt would not care that he was playing an incarnation of the man who called himself the Doctor. And it should have been obvious to anyone watching that the man was an incarnation of the Doctor.

Or maybe the message was telling us that the Doctor's real name is "John Hurt", and it was simply good luck that an actor with that same name was able to play the Doctor when he wasn't the Doctor.

Although I wonder if this means that we will end up learning the Doctor's name. After all, if John Hurt is not the Doctor, then who is he?
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Old 05-19-2013, 06:13 PM   #20
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And if the Silence were trying to prevent it, it seems like maybe they were trying to thwart the GI and therefore were actually good.
"Good" is a matter of perspective.

Suppose one had the ability to send a bomb back in time. The bomb would kill 100,000 people, but pre-leader Hitler would be among the dead. Assuming there would be no other repercussions, would that be the right thing to do? What if instead of 100,000 people, it was 1,000,000? Or what if it was 100? Is there a point where we draw a line, and decide that the ends justify the means?

The John Hurt incarnation of the Doctor apparently came to that conclusion at some point in time.

The Silence were the same way. They decided that the tomb could not be opened at any cost. From their point of view, they were doing good. From others', they were not.
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Old 05-19-2013, 07:42 PM   #21
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From a wiki (http://tardis.wikia.com/wiki/The_Silence):

We had Trenzalore. We had the fall of the eleventh ("how are we going to get down? Jump?" "No, we're going to fall"). We had the Question, posed by the GI. We had all the living people fail to answer (River was not alive). It seems like the events of the prophecy to me, or close enough. And if the Silence were trying to prevent it, it seems like maybe they were trying to thwart the GI and therefore were actually good.

And if the answer is John Hurt, and the question is the first and oldest question in the universe, then maybe he's not the non-Doctor between 8 and 9, after all; maybe he's pre-1.
Thanks. I dont think this was the prophecy. Not quite. That happens later, I'd assume. Besides, Clara thwarted the GI.

As for good. Nah. Unless you consider cyber men good. They think they are saving humanity. As for the Silence. Self preservation is not in itself good. Nor is it evil. Most of the supposed evil races (even Daleks) are not evil. They are arrogant, power hungry, wrong headed but not truly evil.
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Old 05-19-2013, 08:12 PM   #22
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I think the line to which GI states "Doctor grows darker day after day" - or whatever the phrasing was - was very telling.

In Trial of a Timelord we learned that the Valeyard was a "distillation" (their word) between 12th and 13th (and at the time, final) incarnation of the Doctor.

There has been a theme of the Doctor growing darker, which I'd actually start with Adric's death in the 5th incarnation. The 6th incarnation was dark (critics agreed the show took a darker turn), the 7th incarnation was somewhat dark (and mysterious). We never knew much canon on 8th besides the movie. The 9th Doctor had just ended the Time War and was acknowledged as being "angry" until he met Rose.

The 10th Doctor showed this behavior in "Waters of Mars" with the line "Tough." (Which came back to haunt him.)

The 11th Doctor faced this knowledge in "A Good Man Goes to War".

I'd hunch the Doctor learned a bit of his future, and thus learned about John Hurt's "Doctor" (Hence 11's statement at the end.)

I don't think this is going to be a 8th/9th "distillation". But, it would be nice to finally learn about the time war.
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Old 05-19-2013, 10:37 PM   #23
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Excellent episode! It was so good it even made other episodes better.
Great statement.

I loved it. It was the "epic" Doctor that's been missing all season. The explanation of Clara was good. Only the dumb "John Hurt as....." was a negative. It seemed so silly, if you want to say it's the Doctor or similar then just say it.

Jenny's death was awesome, shame it didn't stick (from the story point of view), some great Strax lines ("I didn't realize you were woman", Strax: "Nor did I").

Luckily for me I don't get wrapped up in the timey-wimey history and keeping things straight too much.

Great scenes with Clara and other Doctors.

Can someone remind me how River's story ended previously. The first time we met her was the last time she met the Doctor. I thought the last time we saw her would be the first time she met the Doctor but I can't remember it.
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Old 05-19-2013, 10:43 PM   #24
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Can someone remind me how River's story ended previously. The first time we met her was the last time she met the Doctor. I thought the last time we saw her would be the first time she met the Doctor but I can't remember it.
The first time she meets the Doctor was in "Let's Kill Hitler".
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Old 05-19-2013, 10:51 PM   #25
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On a probably sexist note, I wouldn't mind if Clara didn't wear twelve lbs of clothing next season.
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Old 05-19-2013, 11:27 PM   #26
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I thought I did pretty well at guessing what the deal is with Clara back in April:
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Shot in the dark: each one is a *potential* Oswald, or rather that they all represent potential outcomes to choices that can be made in her life. Instead of being in separate parallel universes (as we've seen with Rose), they're all somehow in the same universe, just scattered throughout time. That's part of the impossible part about her.
Not exactly, but still not too far off.

I think "the question that must never be asked," which seems to be the question that is the title of the show, is often being interpreted to be "what is the Doctor's name," but I think the real question is "What is the true nature of the Doctor," which is where they seem to be going with the 50th special.

Some of the classic scenes that they digitally inserted Clara into were a little glaring. It would have been interesting had they created a scene with Clara and the first Doctor by using David Bradley, who will be portraying William Hartnell in the upcoming movie "An Adventure in Space and Time."
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Old 05-20-2013, 12:19 AM   #27
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I think the title has been misinterpreted. It's not "the doctors name", is what has been done in "the name of the Doctor"
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Old 05-20-2013, 02:02 AM   #28
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I'd hunch the Doctor learned a bit of his future, and thus learned about John Hurt's "Doctor" (Hence 11's statement at the end.)
That was my thought while watching. I interpreted the Doctor's comments to mean that John Hurt was when the Doctor gave up the promise that made him the Doctor, and that would ultimately lead to his death.

But after coming here, I think the theories of him being the pre-Doctor and Time War between-Doctor are good as well. So I'm not as sure as I was while watching the episode.

Or...What if Doctor 11 knows about John Hurt not because of jumping into his "time tomb", but because he actually worked with his future darker self to end the Time War? The Doctor might be running from both his past and his future.
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Old 05-20-2013, 08:22 AM   #29
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I'm not sure it gives the previous weak episodes a pass, but it was certainly a much better offering!

As for John Hurt, I had read that he was going to be in the 50th Anniversary episode and was to play 'a Doctor'. As to how deep his involvement will be, I have no guesses.

Personally, I wouldn't be disappointed if he was to become the new Doctor, but there are all kinds of rumors surrounding Smith including...

Spoiler:
1. His last episode will be the Christmas one and 2. He's signed up for another year!


I guess we'll just have to wait and see. After all, it's not exactly unusual to be thrown a few red herrings and the occasional curveball!
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Old 05-20-2013, 09:38 AM   #30
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I think the title has been misinterpreted. It's not "the doctors name", is what has been done in "the name of the Doctor"
Excellent point.
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