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Old 01-13-2013, 10:37 AM   #31
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So, Windmark goes back in time to September's apartment and finds out that September just left, no more than an hour ago. So why not go back in time an hour? Seems easier than setting up a gigantic grid search and a bunch of roadblocks.
I don't think he went back in time. Later on he was explicitly forbidden to do that by his boss when he asked.
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I had the same concern as stellie93. If they change time so that the Observers never exist, why do they think that will get Etta back? Even if Peter is still alive in the new timeline, he may never meet Olivia without the Observers, whose meddling (indirectly) helped bring the two of them together.
That was my first reaction as well, and I was hoping Peter would tell that to Olivia when she asked why he isn't optimistic about getting Etta back. However it is possible that observing critical events in time would still happen and the timeline can be nearly same as before, including Bell's war, which wasn't dependent on Observers. So, fringe events would still occur and observers may still interfere. I am not liking this resolution though.

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Showing him to the people who invented the Observers may not impress them, and they may go on to create the Observers anyway.
All he needs to do is touch them, give them visions of a future and the alternate realities, like he did with Walter.

The whole idea that September was captured, tech removed, then 'humanized', is preposterous. Especially of someone that was one of the original twelve, and has so much insider knowledge.

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Old 01-13-2013, 11:11 AM   #32
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I really liked the explanation they gave of how the observers came to be.
Funny I had pretty much pieced it together and known all this. I've forgotten a lot from this show (like what was the motive of the evil guy from the last few seasons), but everything about the Observers always seemed significant. Did anyone else feel September's explanation was a recap of what we mostly knew?

So did Peter save his chip because it doesn't appear that keeping it in effected September long term? Wasn't Olivia's fear that her emotional Peter would be gone forever? It's not really logical that this group would defeat the intellect of the Observers UNLESS the head Observer understands that a "human" victory would be good for everyone. Why not evolve into something greater if you have the chance?
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Old 01-13-2013, 02:03 PM   #33
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I don't think he went back in time. Later on he was explicitly forbidden to do that by his boss when he asked.
Huh? Of course Windmark went back in time. He met with his boss in the future, then traveled back in time to find September / Donald.

Windmark was forbidden from going back in time to the beginning of September's meddling to stop it.
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Old 01-13-2013, 05:35 PM   #34
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Fringe seems to challenge it's viewers to try to understand wtf is going on.

First they introduced parallel universe's.
Then alternate time lines (with parallel universe's)
Now invaders from a future time line, and they have some ambiguous rules about altering the time line. (Still with parallel universe's)

I still like my theory that the observer's are from the parallel universe. It would certainly remove all the possible paradox's, and explain why they can do whatever their doing to our universe.

Also September's plan to reset the time line (removing the observers) would take Peter away from Olivia. September wouldn't have distracted Walternate from finding the cure and child Peter would have been saved, removing the need for Walter to cross over to save the other Peter after losing his son from the disease.
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Old 01-13-2013, 06:13 PM   #35
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Yes, Windmark returned to 2036 from meeting with his boss, but he resumed normal flow of time here. He didn't even go an hour before he left, or he would have caught September. That's what I was responding to. Of course , not using time travel is a curious restriction, considering the invasion is certainly meddling with the timeline, big time.

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Huh? Of course Windmark went back in time. He met with his boss in the future, then traveled back in time to find September / Donald.

Windmark was forbidden from going back in time to the beginning of September's meddling to stop it.

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Old 01-13-2013, 06:35 PM   #36
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Did anyone else feel September's explanation was a recap of what we mostly knew?
I did. It dawned on me a while back that "the boy that must live" was the child observer, and not Peter. September just confirmed it.

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Fringe seems to challenge it's viewers to try to understand wtf is going on.
That's what I love about this show. And people don't understand why I don't like sitcoms.

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I still like my theory that the observer's are from the parallel universe. It would certainly remove all the possible paradox's, and explain why they can do whatever their doing to our universe.
I think that would be the easy way out. I hope the writers are better than that. The story doesn't have to have a nice neat happy ending.
Hopefully they can write the ending in a way that leaves us satified, yet still allows for a full length movie ( I know, wishful thinking ).
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Also September's plan to reset the time line (removing the observers) would take Peter away from Olivia. September wouldn't have distracted Walternate from finding the cure and child Peter would have been saved, removing the need for Walter to cross over to save the other Peter after losing his son from the disease.
That is what I'm thinking. I think Peter realizes what is going to happen if the timeline gets reset to a time before the Observers invaded, and Olivia is not thinking clearly in the hopes of seeing Etta again.
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Old 01-14-2013, 07:43 AM   #37
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I was hoping the boy would start kung fu-ing the crap out of the loyalists and observers when he walked off the train. Now, I'm stuck in "Huh?" mode for a week.

I know I complain about this kind of stuff a lot but c'mon, guys. You've got a wanted, bald headed boy and you're going to walk him around down town without a hat? Maybe you can't do an elaborate disguise but at least do something simple. Even Olivia's walking around with her blond hair flowing in the breeze. At least put some sunglasses on.
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Old 01-14-2013, 08:11 AM   #38
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Yes, Windmark returned to 2036 from meeting with his boss, but he resumed normal flow of time here. He didn't even go an hour before he left, or he would have caught September. That's what I was responding to. Of course , not using time travel is a curious restriction, considering the invasion is certainly meddling with the timeline, big time.
Maybe I missed it somewhere, but it seems (mostly) that when they travel in time it is to meet with each other and they don't really meddle in the actual timeline. September broke that when he saved Peter. They are "observers" after all, they observe, not meddle. So perhaps the restriction is, that while they can travel through time, they cannot meddle for fear of "changing" something that would remove/change their existence. By September meddling, it appears that it is going to cause great change in the universe, and this is what the Observers don't want.

I do love the explanation of how the Observers came to be. As preposterous as it is, it actually all kind of made sense...is believable.

This will be on of the few shows in a long time that I'm gonna miss when it's gone. I groaned when they said that next week is it.
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Old 01-14-2013, 08:26 AM   #39
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I also get the impression that when they go from their time to ours, the connection is "fixed"...i.e., time at their end of the connection is passing at the same rate as time at ours, and they don't have a choice as to which point in time they will arrive.
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Old 01-14-2013, 08:34 AM   #40
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I also get the impression that when they go from their time to ours, the connection is "fixed"...i.e., time at their end of the connection is passing at the same rate as time at ours, and they don't have a choice as to which point in time they will arrive.
I agree. Windmark needed a special permission to breach "the protocol" and go to a different time. Now, to be honest, I don't see how going back in time an hour to catch Donald would have changed anything except ensure that the 99.999% outcome is reached but, whatever!
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Old 01-14-2013, 08:38 AM   #41
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I agree. Windmark needed a special permission to breach "the protocol" and go to a different time. Now, to be honest, I don't see how going back in time an hour to catch Donald would have changed anything except ensure that the 99.999% outcome is reached but, whatever!
Actually going back in time an hour to capture Donald might have changed EVERYTHING! Think about what happens if they capture Donald and he gives up Walter's plan.
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Old 01-14-2013, 08:47 AM   #42
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Actually going back in time an hour to capture Donald might have changed EVERYTHING! Think about what happens if they capture Donald and he gives up Walter's plan.
The only thing that would thwart the Observers' plan is what the Fringe gang eventually do. The boy is not in their plan. If Donald is caught and the boy is destroyed, their (the observers') plan continues unabated.
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Old 01-14-2013, 08:57 AM   #43
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The only thing that would thwart the Observers' plan is what the Fringe gang eventually do. The boy is not in their plan. If Donald is caught and the boy is destroyed, their (the observers') plan continues unabated.
Yes, I wasn't referring to the Observer's plan, but Walter's. Remember the boy and Donald is the wildcard and Windmark knows it's important for some reason to stop them. He doesn't know exactly what the plan is, and he Windmark's boss doesn't know how it would change things if they went back the hour to capture Donald. When he went into the future and it appeared that the Observers were still in charge, I don't think the boss thought that going back an hour was wise, knowing what he did in the future. If he goes back that hour, destroys Walter's plan, does he "know" how that will effect the future they already "know?" If their mantra is not to affect the timelines, then going back an hour could destroy everything (butterfly effect and all that).
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Old 01-14-2013, 10:23 AM   #44
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Also September's plan to reset the time line (removing the observers) would take Peter away from Olivia. September wouldn't have distracted Walternate from finding the cure and child Peter would have been saved, removing the need for Walter to cross over to save the other Peter after losing his son from the disease.
It's possible, though, that Peter grows up on the Red Side, but people end up crossing over one way and/or the other later on, and he ends up meeting Olivia that way.

One of the mistakes September was trying to fix was Etta not being born. While it's possible that that was a lesser mistake made after The Mistake, I think it points to Etta having existed in the pre-Observer timeline.

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I think that would be the easy way out. I hope the writers are better than that. The story doesn't have to have a nice neat happy ending.
Hopefully they can write the ending in a way that leaves us satified, yet still allows for a full length movie ( I know, wishful thinking ).
I don't see that as an "easy way out". I think it is a good explanation that makes a lot of sense, and gives a good reason for introducing the second universe in the first place.

Plus, so far it seems like the Observers should have been happy with their timeline, so it would make more sense that they would want to alter the timeline of the other universe rather than their own.

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Now, to be honest, I don't see how going back in time an hour to catch Donald would have changed anything except ensure that the 99.999% outcome is reached but, whatever!
The Observers are so focused on their ultimate goal that they cannot see the trees in the forest. Being able to process enough data to be able to make accurate predications of events has made them extremely methodical, and they have a specific plan that requires the timeline be altered in an orderly fashion.

Keeping the the future and the past "time locked" together minimizes the amount of varibles that they have to account for in their calculations for what they need to do in order to achieve their desired outcome.

But just as they missed the importance of September's child in human evolution when he was born, their calculations have underestimated the significance of the Fringe team, which Windmark is beginning to see. The leaders in the future, however, are too removed from events and sure of themselves to see anything else as possible than what they had calculated.
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Old 01-14-2013, 10:47 AM   #45
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What's the over/under on Etta "returning"?
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Old 01-14-2013, 10:49 AM   #46
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What's the over/under on Etta "returning"?
100%. No doubt in my mind. The only question is if they go back to that day in the park or to the present day with her an adult.
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Old 01-14-2013, 11:28 AM   #47
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I also get the impression that when they go from their time to ours, the connection is "fixed"...i.e., time at their end of the connection is passing at the same rate as time at ours, and they don't have a choice as to which point in time they will arrive.
That's obviously not true, if Windmark contemplates going back to an earlier time to stop September's meddling.

I suppose you could combine your theory with "Observer rules" that you may not go back to a time earlier than you left + time spent in the future unless you have special permission. But that would be a silly rule, obviously only existing for convenience of the writers.
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Old 01-14-2013, 11:34 AM   #48
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If their mantra is not to affect the timelines, then going back an hour could destroy everything (butterfly effect and all that).
This does not make sense. The Observers have already gone back in time and invaded the past. That is a huge change. Going back another hour from when they left for the future is a drop in the bucket.

Besides, the Observers obviously exist in the future. If they are so concerned about changes to the past, then why did they invade the past at all? They risk totally destroying themselves.
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Old 01-14-2013, 11:59 AM   #49
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This does not make sense. The Observers have already gone back in time and invaded the past. That is a huge change. Going back another hour from when they left for the future is a drop in the bucket.

Besides, the Observers obviously exist in the future. If they are so concerned about changes to the past, then why did they invade the past at all? They risk totally destroying themselves.
Maybe crossing into established events is strictly forbidden. Except for cheap tricks.

Didn't the boss guy say they couldn't go back further because the point in time they picked had a 99.999999% chance of success and they hadn't calculated the probabilities at other points (or something along those lines)
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Old 01-14-2013, 12:02 PM   #50
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That's obviously not true, if Windmark contemplates going back to an earlier time to stop September's meddling.
But I think that would require opening a new time tunnel, not using the one they already use.

Which is to say, I think it's relatively trivial to go back and forth between the "present" and the Observers' home time, using the existing time tunnel. To go to another time would not be trivial.

But I suspect we are probably thinking about this more than they are. Fringe is not noted for its scientific rigor.
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Old 01-14-2013, 01:33 PM   #51
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What's the over/under on Etta "returning"?
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100%. No doubt in my mind. The only question is if they go back to that day in the park or to the present day with her an adult.
For me the perfect tears swelling, kleenex ending is going to have to be that day with young Etta in the park, I'm fine if earlier in the finale we get to see 20 something Etta as long as the last scene is the park, even if they do it as a throwaway flashback from them, but that last scene, gotta be the park in my book.

p.s. did I mention I have a lot of emotion vested in the park?
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Old 01-14-2013, 01:42 PM   #52
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For me the perfect tears swelling, kleenex ending is going to have to be that day with young Etta in the park, I'm fine if earlier in the finale we get to see 20 something Etta as long as the last scene is the park, even if they do it as a throwaway flashback from them, but that last scene, gotta be the park in my book.

p.s. did I mention I have a lot of emotion vested in the park?
They have to end in current time, I would think. But it would be a time without the Observers, so they would have had a long and normal life with Etta around. But I see no reason why they can't still close on a flashback to that day to make everyone (you, especially) happy!
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Old 01-14-2013, 01:54 PM   #53
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I'm only 12 mins in and peeked in to this thread to see if anyone had the same reaction I had to seeing Robin Williams as "the commander"
A hairless Robin Williams, now that's a makeup job!

Update: Ok, looking around more it seems that it's James Kidnie, not Robin Williams.

+1 here. I thought he both looked and sounded like Robin Williams. I had to rewind and rewatch that multiple times and I still wasn't sure it wasn't Mork.
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Old 01-14-2013, 01:58 PM   #54
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I suppose you could combine your theory with "Observer rules" that you may not go back to a time earlier than you left + time spent in the future unless you have special permission. But that would be a silly rule, obviously only existing for convenience of the writers.
Well, obviously the writers have set this up to be convenient to themselves, no? Time travel stories always have some artifice to their rules (beyond the artifice of the time travel itself) to keep a semblance of logic and simplicity to the storytelling. In this case, the big artificial rule is the Chief Observer telling Windmark that the Fringe team doesn't matter in the big scheme of things, and that therefore there is no need to go back further in time and eradicate them.
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Old 01-14-2013, 03:21 PM   #55
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For me the perfect tears swelling, kleenex ending is going to have to be that day with young Etta in the park, I'm fine if earlier in the finale we get to see 20 something Etta as long as the last scene is the park, even if they do it as a throwaway flashback from them, but that last scene, gotta be the park in my book.

p.s. did I mention I have a lot of emotion vested in the park?
I'm with you on this one. I want the completely happy ending for Peter, Olivia, and Etta (and Walter! and Astrid!) and the park scene would be a perfect one to end on.
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Old 01-14-2013, 03:48 PM   #56
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I'm with you on this one. I want the completely happy ending for Peter, Olivia, and Etta (and Walter! and Astrid!) and the park scene would be a perfect one to end on.
I doubt it would be a happy ending - more like bitter-sweet. It wouldn't surprise me if the timeline without Peter (orange universe) is likely outcome. But I hope not.

My ideal ending would also include meeting their alternate selves one more time, perhaps team up again to defeat the 'Observers'.

I also wonder if the reason for the observers watching significant events was to:
1 - Map out the point at which a significant event (the invasion) will succeed.
2 - Study effect of significant events on the fabric of reality.
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Old 01-14-2013, 09:43 PM   #57
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I doubt it would be a happy ending - more like bitter-sweet. It wouldn't surprise me if the timeline without Peter (orange universe) is likely outcome. But I hope not.
Without the Observers ever being created, Peter dies as a kid in the lake when Walter tries to bring him back into the original universe from the Walternate-verse. September saved them after they went through the ice. No Observers, no September. No Peter. No Etta.
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Old 01-14-2013, 09:53 PM   #58
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Without the observers, September specifically, Walternate would have found the cure to his son's illness and healed him, and Walter would have had no need to cross over. It is possible that Olivia will still meet Peter - as they work with the team from the other side dealing with Bell and his plan.

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Without the Observers ever being created, Peter dies as a kid in the lake when Walter tries to bring him back into the original universe from the Walternate-verse. September saved them after they went through the ice. No Observers, no September. No Peter. No Etta.

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Old 01-14-2013, 10:01 PM   #59
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Without the observers, September specifically, Walternate would have found the cure to his son's illness and healed him, and Walter would have had no need to cross over. It is possible that Olivia will still meet Peter - as they work with the team from the other side dealing with Bell and his plan.
How do you figure?

ETA: And since Walter didn't cross over, Bell wouldn't have either, since Walter developed the tech for it specifically to go get Peter. Right? Or am I misremembering?

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Old 01-14-2013, 10:52 PM   #60
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If I remember correctly, the 'window' tech to see into the alternate universe was Walter and Bell's LSD-induced idea long before Peter got sick. The tech was known to all of them, even the dangers involved were known (remember Nina tried to stop him from crossing over). Walter used the 'window' to watch Walternate work on the cure, and not only that, he was hoping Walternate's attempts would help him find the cure as well, but he was too late. Later he had seen September interfere. He ended up crossing over himself, and fought with Nina to get through (her arm was injured).
Had September not been there, Walter would have seen Walternate identify the cure and possibly cure Peter, and there would be no need to cross over. Bell's war has nothing to do with Peter, but has everything to do with the trans-dimensional rift, so it likely would have still happened. And, wasn't it mentioned that Bell and Walter would steal stuff from the other side and sell it to the government - I believe long before Peter's death?

I guess its all theories, but unless September was still operating and observing events, Peter's story would unravel differently. Observers may still be interested in studying important events and history may run same course - but that's extremely unlikely.

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How do you figure?

ETA: And since Walter didn't cross over, Bell wouldn't have either, since Walter developed the tech for it specifically to go get Peter. Right? Or am I misremembering?

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